3rd April 2009 - Forums for High level F2P'ers!

[Wingless]

2 Things I have Learned From This Thread:

 

 

 

1) Yay for me, I can go to Forums again soon

 

2) Compfreak is 32

 

 

 

Everything else is pretty much senseless argument. Here:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Last year f2p gave Jagex 7% of it's income. Ok, cool. So if F2P makes up 7% of all the money Jagex receives, shouldn't f2p get 7% of all updates? If you actually look at it, f2p gets less than 7% of all updates. Members have no reason to complain.

 

 

 

In addition, half of the time, extending f2p benefits from p2p costs Jagex no money and minimal time. Giving f2p FoG for instance was only a matter of changing the script to be allowed on f2p worlds. This forum update is only a matter of allowing f2p to log into the Forums, but denying that to all f2pers under a certain level. Yes, I know a lot of kids in my High School who can do that.

 

 

 

Finally. Someone with sense.

 

It's true, members have no right to complain. They have extended lands, 100 more quests, loads more items and more stuff to do.

 

F2P's on the other hand have small lands, not more than 7 quests and very few items or things to do.

 

 

 

And, I don't think anyone has taken to heart the idea of 'High Levels'.

 

By that, we can assume overall levels, hours played etc. You can't base it on xp, because there are loads of people with millions of exp in cooking and whatnot.

[compfreak847]

 

 

 

Last year f2p gave Jagex 7% of it's income. Ok, cool. So if F2P makes up 7% of all the money Jagex receives, shouldn't f2p get 7% of all updates? If you actually look at it, f2p gets less than 7% of all updates. Members have no reason to complain.

 

 

 

In addition, half of the time, extending f2p benefits from p2p costs Jagex no money and minimal time. Giving f2p FoG for instance was only a matter of changing the script to be allowed on f2p worlds. This forum update is only a matter of allowing f2p to log into the Forums, but denying that to all f2pers under a certain level. Yes, I know a lot of kids in my High School who can do that.

 

And here's another interesting graph:

 

 

You will notice that out of all turnover, virtually all of it is from members - and the turnover after expenses is much, much lower. FTP accounts for the majority of the operating expenses, with 130 times the players that are currently paying for membership.

[compfreak847]

 

Finally. Someone with sense.

 

It's true, members have no right to complain. They have extended lands, 100 more quests, loads more items and more stuff to do.

 

F2P's on the other hand have small lands, not more than 7 quests and very few items or things to do.

 

 

 

And, I don't think anyone has taken to heart the idea of 'High Levels'.

 

By that, we can assume overall levels, hours played etc. You can't base it on xp, because there are loads of people with millions of exp in cooking and whatnot.

 

It doesn't matter what members get and FTP gets, it's the fact that FTP is getting more then they pay for (in this case, nothing) and members are getting less (because some of it is going to FTP).

 

 

 

Again, see the part about negative context, and why "freeloaders" is the wrong word. And that's not even what I was meaning. I was only that he's sterotyping every f2per into a noob and a beggar, not that we're not freeloaders. At the beginning, I anknowledged that may be true, but it really doesn't matter.

 

Freeloaders doesn't mean noob and beggar, it means that they are getting more then they are paying for by leeching off of someone else - which even you agreed with.

[compfreak847]

 

Rational maths for the win. You're actually right - if Jagex updated every week for a year (52 weeks), then that stands to reason that Freeplay would get 3 or 4 updates a year, which is accurate.

 

That would only be true if FTP had zero expenses, but as indicated by my chart, FTP DOES - expenses that far outstrip the tiny revenue they generate, sending them far into the red.

[Wingless]

 

 

 

Last year f2p gave Jagex 7% of it's income. Ok, cool. So if F2P makes up 7% of all the money Jagex receives, shouldn't f2p get 7% of all updates? If you actually look at it, f2p gets less than 7% of all updates. Members have no reason to complain.

 

 

 

In addition, half of the time, extending f2p benefits from p2p costs Jagex no money and minimal time. Giving f2p FoG for instance was only a matter of changing the script to be allowed on f2p worlds. This forum update is only a matter of allowing f2p to log into the Forums, but denying that to all f2pers under a certain level. Yes, I know a lot of kids in my High School who can do that.

 

And here's another interesting graph:

 

 

You will notice that out of all turnover, virtually all of it is from members - and the turnover after expenses is much, much lower. FTP accounts for the majority of the operating expenses, with 130 times the players that are currently paying for membership.

 

 

 

I don't see any valid point in that post. All you just proved was that F2P accounts do make money, small money, but still money. And because of that tiny income, F2P's have right to a 'tiny' amount of updates.

[Great_one]

Last year f2p gave Jagex 7% of it's income. Ok, cool. So if F2P makes up 7% of all the money Jagex receives, shouldn't f2p get 7% of all updates? If you actually look at it, f2p gets less than 7% of all updates. Members have no reason to complain.

 

Rational maths for the win. You're actually right - if Jagex updated every week for a year (52 weeks), then that stands to reason that Freeplay would get 3 or 4 updates a year, which is accurate.

 

what about the advert ont eh front page? and btw look at the player numbers

 

 

 

members (probably) ~1.2m

 

free ~5-6m

 

 

 

you can see how much more it costs to add an update for 7m players than it does for 1.2m

[compfreak847]

 

I don't see any valid point in that post. All you just proved was that F2P accounts do make money, small money, but still money. And because of that tiny income, F2P's have right to a 'tiny' amount of updates.

 

No, I proved that FTP makes a tiny amount of money - and then spends far more then that on server costs, resulting in a loss that must be filled by the money from member subscriptions. Graph reading fail.

[AlexRose]

 

I'm not sure either, but you do realize he responded to that EXACT post? And you've made absolutely no point against that post simply by requoting the post and automatically assuming it's right?

 

Not at all, his entire argument was a rant about how I ignored the fact that it convinced people to sign up for PTP - the exact argument I made as the only reason to keep FTP. He obviously hadn't read my post, so I did him a favor and bolded the applicable parts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's not the point. He was responding to how you said that F2Per's were useless and paracitic (and sucessfully), and all you did was requote your post. Not exactly a stellar agrument.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not 'mad' about them getting stuff, I'm annoyed that I'm paying for them to get stuff.

 

 

 

Which is what I just said, minus replacing "mad" with "annoyed". AGAIN, for every usually minor (exception is again last year because of rebalencing PvP) update they get, you get ten. Get over it.

 

 

 

Flash games are more then paid for by advertisements or sites like Miniclip would be long dead. As shown from the financial records, server costs far outstrip advertising revenue. If they become PTP then they DO deserve updates, but until then your freeloading in the fullest sense of the word - playing the game off our dollar with no compensation.

 

 

 

Ok....

 

 

 

That's not the point. The point is you're being explixitly being negative to F2Pers and calling them freeloaders. Freeloaders implies they give nothing back, but they do. They might possibly become members, they give advertising revenue, they tell other people to play the game and expand it, they help the P2P economy. They do not directly bring revenue, but in the long run it is benifical. Don't you think Jagex would have stopped F2P if it didn't?

[compfreak847]

That's not the point. He was responding to how you said that F2Per's were useless and paracitic (and sucessfully), and all you did was requote your post. Not exactly a stellar agrument.

 

 

All he said was that they also brought in new subscribers, the point I made in my original post; therefore, there was nothing for me to respond to, he was simply echoing what I had already said.

 

 

 

Which is what I just said, minus replacing "mad" with "annoyed". AGAIN, for every usually minor (exception is again last year because of rebalencing PvP) update they get, you get ten. Get over it.

 

And they COST us money, so they should be GIVING us updates. This isn't a matter of them barely making a profit, it's a matter of them sucking out the money we pay.

 

 

 

They do not directly bring revenue, but in the long run it is benifical. Don't you think Jagex would have stopped F2P if it didn't?

 

Exactly my point. All FTP updates should be geared to do one of two things: Convince people to switch to members, and make people stay members. As soon as they shift the focus off those two, they are draining updates out of paying members pockets.

[Great_one]

they help the P2P economy.

 

for producers, yes. for actually making money off skills, which has a giant disadvantage over boss hunting atm, f2p hurts the members economy. imagine if a p2p player who skills could make 1,000 gp off of a gold ore instead of 400gp. it would re-stimulate skilling. not to mention hinder those skills that are out of control easy(cooking, fletching)

 

 

 

it would be great for the p2p economy if f2p didn't exist

[Bauke]

Compfreak, it's not your money anymore. You give it to Jagex, in return for content. That's the deal. Jagex decides where to spend that money on, and a part of that is investing in F2P servers. If you are unhappy with the content you recieve, you can cancel your membership.

 

 

 

I don't know why you feel the need to rant on F2P'ers. They simply get the offer to be able to play a game for free, and they take that opportunity.

 

 

 

Oh, and you DO get updates. So saying that they should give us updates is quite unneeded, since they do.

[Dire_Wolf]

I don't use the forums for any discussing or serious thing.

 

 

 

I just check sales and if i got a good suggestion i post it.

 

 

 

Other than that i dont care about the forum.

[compfreak847]

Compfreak, it's not your money anymore. You give it to Jagex, in return for content. That's the deal. Jagex decides where to spend that money on, and a part of that is investing in F2P servers. If you are unhappy with the content you recieve, you can cancel your membership.

 

All that is true. I can't do a thing about what Jagex chooses to do with my money, but I AM allowed to voice an opinion about it.

 

 

 

 

I don't know why you feel the need to rant on F2P'ers. They simply get the offer to be able to play a game for free, and they take that opportunity.

 

I'm not ranting at them, I just don't like that Jagex is choosing to use my money in ways that do not benefit me.

 

Oh, and you DO get updates. So saying that they should give us updates is quite unneeded, since they do.

 

I'm not saying we don't get updates, I'm saying FTP gets more updates then they should. From a business perspective, all FTP updates should be designed for the sole reason of getting and keeping members.

[AlexRose]

 

All he said was that they also brought in new subscribers, the point I made in my original post; therefore, there was nothing for me to respond to, he was simply echoing what I had already said.

 

 

 

Alright, now you didn't read. It is all about context.. You said F2Pers contributed nothing, he was responding to that. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

 

 

And they COST us money, so they should be GIVING us updates. This isn't a matter of them barely making a profit, it's a matter of them sucking out the money we pay.

 

 

 

So your mad that Jagex is using your money to pay for people who don't pay, but in turn help the company out more than it hurts? And instead of devoting all of the resources to members, they actually have to support their F2P base, which benefits them?

 

 

 

See: Selfish agrument.

 

 

 

 

 

They do not directly bring revenue, but in the long run it is benifical. Don't you think Jagex would have stopped F2P if it didn't?

 

Exactly my point. All FTP updates should be geared to do one of two things: Convince people to switch to members, and make people stay members. As soon as they shift the focus off those two, they are draining updates out of paying members pockets.

 

 

 

Don't you think that drastically increased interaction with members on a forum MIGHT convince a few people to go P2P? And don't you think that updates that keep people in F2P will convince them that it's an awesome game and go to P2P? And really, if you're so upset about it, then don't give them your money anymore. :roll:

[Bauke]

Compfreak, it's not your money anymore. You give it to Jagex, in return for content. That's the deal. Jagex decides where to spend that money on, and a part of that is investing in F2P servers. If you are unhappy with the content you recieve, you can cancel your membership.

 

All that is true. I can't do a thing about what Jagex chooses to do with my money, but I AM allowed to voice an opinion about it.

 

 

Well yeah, we live in a free country. At least I do, not sure about you.

 

 

I'm not saying we don't get updates, I'm saying FTP gets more updates then they should. From a business perspective, all FTP updates should be designed for the sole reason of getting and keeping members.

 

That depends. Runescape is known to have a pretty good free element. People note that in reviews. People read that and think, hey, lets play Runescape. A decent F2P part of the game doesn't neccesarily have to be primarily focussed on getting everyone to P2P. You don't want everyone on F2P, because it means you can't keep a healthy player base, which will cause less players to be interested in the game.

 

 

 

In that way you could say that a F2P'er that never intends to get membership, but is nice to other players ingame, is earning money for Jagex. Since they potentially increase the fun of other people, thus making them stick, thus increase the chance of those people getting membership.

[ddaanniiellh]

Compfreak, you keep saying that F2P takes up more server space, in comparison to P2P.

 

 

 

Why don't we do some math...

 

For example: Bank Space, I'm assuming that they are storing the items in something similar to a linked list (If they are smart with memory management).

 

 

 

F2P has 64 bankspace, and...lets say 6m people.

 

 

 

P2P has 490 something spaces (Not sure on exact numbers) and around 2m people.

 

 

 

Ok, now lets assume the average F2Per uses all their bankspace and an average P2Per uses up 200 bank spaces (Probably more).

 

 

 

If each linked list object held...Item name, number of item, and "other stuff related to linked list," The average P2Per uses up over 3 times the amount of memory to store bank items than F2Pers do, if all F2Pers max out their bank.

 

~Dan

 

 

 

(I'll get more of this later if you want, when I get back)

[compfreak847]

 

Alright, now you didn't read. It is all about context.. You said F2Pers contributed nothing, he was responding to that. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

And FTPers don't contribute anything. If it convinces them to buy members, they become PTP. Now as I said in the first post, they do help with reeling in the members - the sole point.

 

 

 

 

So your mad that Jagex is using your money to pay for people who don't pay, but in turn help the company out more than it hurts? And instead of devoting all of the resources to members, they actually have to support their F2P base, which benefits them?

 

Nope, if an update isn't getting them to buy members, it has 0 benefits for them.

 

 

See: Selfish agrument.

 

 

Sorry, but if your business plan is to give money away to people for nothing your going to have a hard time staying competitive.

 

 

 

 

Don't you think that drastically increased interaction with members on a forum MIGHT convince a few people to go P2P?

 

Not at all. Right now, FTPers have to communicate on forums like this one. Opening them up to the cesspool that is the RSOF isn't going to do anything to convince them to buy members; posting privileges are.

 

 

 

And don't you think that updates that keep people in F2P will convince them that it's an awesome game and go to P2P?

 

Exactly what I said. Re-read my post.

 

 

 

And really, if you're so upset about it, then don't give them your money anymore. :roll:

 

Already responded to that, it annoys me but I'm still getting my moneys worth so I plan to keep paying. Doesn't mean I can't discuss it, though.

 

And don't you think that updates that keep people in F2P will convince them that it's an awesome game and go to P2P? And really, if you're so upset about it, then don't give them your money anymore. :roll:

[compfreak847]

 

Compfreak, you keep saying that F2P takes up more server space, in comparison to P2P.

 

 

 

If each linked list object held...Item name, number of item, and "other stuff related to linked list," The average P2Per uses up over 3 times the amount of memory to store bank items than F2Pers do, if all F2Pers max out their bank.

 

~Dan

 

Sorry, but storing the item codes for a few dozen objects is essentially nothing compared to rendering the graphics and drops for thousands of hours for a single player, to say nothing of the gigabytes of bandwidth used for updates and gameplay.

[compfreak847]

 

Well yeah, we live in a free country. At least I do, not sure about you.

 

I live in the USA, not that it matters on the internet. Just proving my point.

 

 

 

 

That depends. Runescape is known to have a pretty good free element. People note that in reviews. People read that and think, hey, lets play Runescape. A decent F2P part of the game doesn't neccesarily have to be primarily focussed on getting everyone to P2P. You don't want everyone on F2P, because it means you can't keep a healthy player base, which will cause less players to be interested in the game.

 

 

 

In that way you could say that a F2P'er that never intends to get membership, but is nice to other players ingame, is earning money for Jagex. Since they potentially increase the fun of other people, thus making them stick, thus increase the chance of those people getting membership.

 

All of those things fall under the category of 'making people get members'.

[AlexRose]

I'm not even going to respond to that. You just repeated all your agruments again.

 

 

 

Closing arguments: You're short-sighted, you're selfish, and you're a jackass. Thank you, good night. :lol:

[Bauke]

 

Well yeah, we live in a free country. At least I do, not sure about you.

 

I live in the USA, not that it matters on the internet. Just proving my point.

 

 

 

 

That depends. Runescape is known to have a pretty good free element. People note that in reviews. People read that and think, hey, lets play Runescape. A decent F2P part of the game doesn't neccesarily have to be primarily focussed on getting everyone to P2P. You don't want everyone on F2P, because it means you can't keep a healthy player base, which will cause less players to be interested in the game.

 

 

 

In that way you could say that a F2P'er that never intends to get membership, but is nice to other players ingame, is earning money for Jagex. Since they potentially increase the fun of other people, thus making them stick, thus increase the chance of those people getting membership.

 

All of those things fall under the category of 'making people get members'.

 

Yes. So I'm pretty much saying that what Jagex does isn't wrong, from a business perspective.

[Pinkbullet3]

So it's gonna go into effect sometime this month, right?

 

 

 

Either I missed it or something, but I didn't see the date that they were going to release this on.

[Lordjake]

If you don't like that Jagex is spending time and effort upgrading F2P, then stop giving them your money and become a 'freeloader' like me and enjoy all the wonders that non-membership provides.

 

 

 

If you do still think P2P is worth subscribing to, then stop complaining because you're obviously still enjoying the updates and upgrades that you get as being a member. Jagex has always given f2p some attention, and allowing them/us to access forums isn't going to all-of-the-sudden ruin your experience in p2p.

 

 

 

 

 

on topic: I don't like how Jagex thinks there are 250k "high leveled" f2pers...

[compfreak847]

Yes. So I'm pretty much saying that what Jagex does isn't wrong, from a business perspective.

 

And I'm saying that most updates aren't, but they seem to be moving in the wrong direction with updates like this one. Do you really think that drawing players from fansites like tip.it to the cesspool of RSOF is going to encourage them to buy members? And it knocks away a decent advantage of PTP, posting privileges - and it's just that much more maintenance and server costs for Jagex.

 

 

 

I'm not even going to respond to that. You just repeated all your agruments again.

 

Interesting way of bowing out, but it was quite obvious I responded with valid arguments.

 

 

 

Closing arguments: You're short-sighted, you're selfish

 

Sorry, but giving away stuff to people with no return whatsoever doesn't make for the world's greatest business plan. If I want to do that I'll donate money to a charity.

 

 

 

and you're a jackass.

 

That has what to do with my argument? Sorry, but argumentum ad homine never holds up well. :roll:

[compfreak847]

If you don't like that Jagex is spending time and effort upgrading F2P, then stop giving them your money and become a 'freeloader' like me and enjoy all the wonders that non-membership provides.

 

No thanks, I already stated (multiple times) that Runescape gives a good 'bang for the buck' - but that doesn't mean it couldn't be better.

 

 

 

 

If you do still think P2P is worth subscribing to, then stop complaining because you're obviously still enjoying the updates and upgrades that you get as being a member. Jagex has always given f2p some attention, and allowing them/us to access forums isn't going to all-of-the-sudden ruin your experience in p2p.

 

Wait, so because I still think it's worth it I'm not allowed to disagree with any of Jagex actions? :-#