3rd April 2009 - Forums for High level F2P'ers!

[ddaanniiellh]

 

Compfreak, you keep saying that F2P takes up more server space, in comparison to P2P.

 

 

 

If each linked list object held...Item name, number of item, and "other stuff related to linked list," The average P2Per uses up over 3 times the amount of memory to store bank items than F2Pers do, if all F2Pers max out their bank.

 

~Dan

 

Sorry, but storing the item codes for a few dozen objects is essentially nothing compared to rendering the graphics and drops for thousands of hours for a single player, to say nothing of the gigabytes of bandwidth used for updates and gameplay.

 

Alright then, lets calculate the amount of people online right now.

 

 

 

There are 133k+ people on right now.

 

 

 

There are 2 members world with 2000 people on it.

 

 

 

35 with between 1k-2k people on it.

 

 

 

Remainder (46 when I counted) has 500-1000 people on it.

 

 

 

If we take the lower half of each portion (2000 * 2 + 35*1000 + 500*46)

 

 

 

You get 62000 people, with the actual number closer to 70000. This makes up nearly half of the amount of people (When taking the lower limits) on the servers right now. With members having full screen (Therefore more to render at once), I would assume that at most given times, members actually take up more bandwidth than F2P does.

 

~Dan

[Wingless]

I've noticed this thread is all compfreak >_>

 

 

 

Oh well, at least my 'Most Popular Thread' is shooting up.

 

 

 

OT: I believe they may be centering this 'high level' escapade on Exp and Time Played...

 

 

 

I'll try to find out as much as I can :twss:

[Bini]

Wtf? the title says "3rd April 2009 - Forums for High level F2P'ers!" but this is one huge flamewar Compfreak vs everyone else. I'd love to join in but everything that has been said by "everyone" is more than enough.

 

 

 

 

 

I think this is absolutely a great try to fix the reputation of RSOF and "steal" some of the fansites users since they have been the only forums that F2p'ers have been able to use.

[Bauke]

Yes. So I'm pretty much saying that what Jagex does isn't wrong, from a business perspective.

 

And I'm saying that most updates aren't, but they seem to be moving in the wrong direction with updates like this one. Do you really think that drawing players from fansites like tip.it to the cesspool of RSOF is going to encourage them to buy members? And it knocks away a decent advantage of PTP, posting privileges - and it's just that much more maintenance and server costs for Jagex.

 

 

Well, the voices of experienced F2P players will be heared now. Those are relevant. They can tell Jagex about how to improve the free game in a decent way (and by decent I don't mean the "I wantz moar contentz pl0x" whines you see a lot). And since P2P gets a crapload of content compared to F2P, there is nothing wrong with giving a little to F2P. It makes people stick around, knowing that F2P is not forgotten or looked down upon by Jagex. Giving a little to keep the F2P player base mildly entertained won't hurt at all.

 

 

 

And well... posting privileges.. Jagex should pay ME for posting there. The RSOF blows.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

 

If you do still think P2P is worth subscribing to, then stop complaining because you're obviously still enjoying the updates and upgrades that you get as being a member. Jagex has always given f2p some attention, and allowing them/us to access forums isn't going to all-of-the-sudden ruin your experience in p2p.

 

Wait, so because I still think it's worth it I'm not allowed to disagree with any of Jagex actions? :-#

 

This doesn't look like a disagreement over a freeplay update. It looks like a tantrum. You can accept that neither Jagex nor players here view F2P as "freeloaders", or undeserving of updates because they don't contribute as much to the game as Members do, or discontinue paying.

 

 

 

Note the key word that I highlighted. This isn't ad hominem, this is an observation on my part. It's been said time and again that F2P doesn't contribute on the same scale as Members. We don't need you to beat that point into the ground any further.

 

 

 

Edit:

 

 

 

And well... posting privileges.. Jagex should pay ME for posting there. The RSOF blows.

 

:lol:

 

 

 

He makes a good point, though - not many Members post on the RSOF, due to the obscene amount of whining by members, who, by some astrological definition, are better and more deserving than high level Freeplayers. :?

[Wingless]

 

If you do still think P2P is worth subscribing to, then stop complaining because you're obviously still enjoying the updates and upgrades that you get as being a member. Jagex has always given f2p some attention, and allowing them/us to access forums isn't going to all-of-the-sudden ruin your experience in p2p.

 

Wait, so because I still think it's worth it I'm not allowed to disagree with any of Jagex actions? :-#

 

This doesn't look like a disagreement over a freeplay update. It looks like a tantrum. You can accept that neither Jagex nor players here view F2P as "freeloaders", or undeserving of updates because they don't contribute as much to the game as Members do, or discontinue paying.

 

 

 

Note the key word that I highlighted. This isn't ad hominem, this is an observation on my part. It's been said time and again that F2P doesn't contribute on the same scale as Members. We don't need you to beat that point into the ground any further.

 

 

 

:thumbup:

 

 

 

You sir, deserve a cookie. (I doubt it will save this thread, however)

[AlexRose]

 

And FTPers don't contribute anything. If it convinces them to buy members, they become PTP. Now as I said in the first post, they do help with reeling in the members - the sole point.

 

 

 

COOOONTEEEEXT. Just because he said it, does NOT MEAN it's the exact same thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, but if your business plan is to give money away to people for nothing your going to have a hard time staying competitive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

BUT THEY DO. They support the player base, might become P2P, and even if they don't, tell friends who might. I told three friends who eventually became members before I did.

 

 

 

 

Don't you think that drastically increased interaction with members on a forum MIGHT convince a few people to go P2P?

 

Not at all. Right now, FTPers have to communicate on forums like this one. Opening them up to the cesspool that is the RSOF isn't going to do anything to convince them to buy members; posting privileges are.

 

 

 

 

What? So your saying a supposedly horrid (in your own words, a "cesspool") forum will somehow attract members, and that increased member to F2Per interaction won't?

 

 

 

Do you wonder why I do not want to respond to your posts?

 

 

 

 

Exactly what I said. Re-read my post.

 

 

 

Again, COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONTEXT. You were agruing F2P contributes nothing except the possibility of membership, and they're worthless. I'm agruing that they're not.

 

 

 

And hell with it, how does having the forums dissuade membership? Are people honestly going to buy membership simply because of the forums? They're going to sign up because of a "cesspool" forum, not because of the twenty times as much content they recieve. Face it, membership will not decrease simply because high level F2P gets a forum. What's the point of a forum if you don't actually play the game it supports?

 

 

 

 

 

Alright, I lied. Stupid OCD. -.-

 

 

 

 

 

 

:thumbup:

 

 

 

You sir, deserve a cookie. (I doubt it will save this thread, however)

 

 

 

He does indeed. I really do not feel like beating this point into the ground further.

 

 

 

+1 cookie for you. Phenoix

[compfreak847]

 

This doesn't look like a disagreement over a freeplay update. It looks like a tantrum. You can accept that neither Jagex nor players here view F2P as "freeloaders"

 

It doesn't matter what they are viewed as, they simple fact is that they are.

 

 

 

or undeserving of updates because they don't contribute as much to the game as Members do, or discontinue paying.

 

Sorry, but Jagex is a business, with the goal of making money. Money is not made by handing out fistfuls of it on street corners with no hope of a return. I don't like seeing money I paid for updates going down the drain.

 

 

 

 

Well, the voices of experienced F2P players will be heared now. Those are relevant. They can tell Jagex about how to improve the free game in a decent way (and by decent I don't mean the "I wantz moar contentz pl0x" whines you see a lot). And since P2P gets a crapload of content compared to F2P, there is nothing wrong with giving a little to F2P. It makes people stick around, knowing that F2P is not forgotten or looked down upon by Jagex. Giving a little to keep the F2P player base mildly entertained won't hurt at all.

 

 

 

And well... posting privileges.. Jagex should pay ME for posting there. The RSOF blows.

 

While they are relevant, on average PTP is going to have more experience and more relevant posts - more players means more useless rubbish to sort through, and the lower the percentage of good posts the worse. The payment is for the privilege, they aren't forcing you to and I know a lot of people who think ROSF posting is a big deal.

 

 

 

Alright then, lets calculate the amount of people online right now.

 

 

 

There are 133k+ people on right now.

 

 

 

There are 2 members world with 2000 people on it.

 

 

 

35 with between 1k-2k people on it.

 

 

 

Remainder (46 when I counted) has 500-1000 people on it.

 

 

 

If we take the lower half of each portion (2000 * 2 + 35*1000 + 500*46)

 

 

 

You get 62000 people, with the actual number closer to 70000. This makes up nearly half of the amount of people (When taking the lower limits) on the servers right now. With members having full screen (Therefore more to render at once), I would assume that at most given times, members actually take up more bandwidth than F2P does.

 

~Dan

 

First of all, fullscreen vs. HD requires minimal rendering power - it's almost all scaled by the client. Secondly, your randomly guessing at the number of players in each world - unless you do a sample with the exact numbers of each world over a period of time, your just making random numbers up to suit whatever purpose you have. The truth is that Jagex has put the number of ACTIVE players at over 6,000,000, and the number of members as over 1,000,000. That means that for every active member there are 5 active FTPers - and while you can make the argument about playing time, the world populations shows that it doesn't outstrip the 5 to 1 disadvantage.

[strilmus]

I'm bored of this, neither one of you is going to concede to either side's argument (because one side is an idiot, and the other side....is a idiot) and I'm just going to derail this. Er, rerail this.

 

 

 

So, aside from having to create a separate area for F2P trading (F2P quests don't have to be separated since they're all quests anyway), do you think this will help anything? I know that if people had more incentive to look at the forums (such as not being a second class citizen), they'd know more about the events (Jagex Cup anybody? No point in having an F2P event if you can't register in the forums because you're F2P) and be able to participate in the question jams.

 

 

 

Of course, that also means that there's going to be a lot more "BRING WILDY BAK" posts.

 

 

 

Well, the voices of experienced F2P players will be heared now. Those are relevant. They can tell Jagex about how to improve the free game in a decent way (and by decent I don't mean the "I wantz moar contentz pl0x" whines you see a lot).

 

 

 

Sorry dude, there's going to be HUGE AMOUNTS OF SPAM with some gold nuggets here and there, and the chances of them being found are drastically low. I mean, take a look at how P2P players conduct themselves. Now think of that, but several times larger, and angrier (despite the fact that they just got forum freedom). We can only hope for the best.

 

 

 

Either way, I don't use RSOF much anyway, so who honestly cares? You can't stop them from changing their mind, there's just too many F2P people and Mark has to please them all, the gullible puppet. XD

[AlexRose]

I'm bored of this, neither one of you is going to concede to either side's argument (because one side is an idiot, and the other side....is a idiot) and I'm just going to derail this. Er, rerail this.

 

 

 

 

Why should I concede if he's being an idiot then?

 

 

 

I do realize, however, I have taken this argument way too far, and for that I apologize for being an idiot and not stopping three pages ago. :(

[compfreak847]

 

COOOONTEEEEXT. Just because he said it, does NOT MEAN it's the exact same thing.

 

You would do a lot better if you stopped whining about context and started discussing the issues. I said that the point of FTP was to get people to buy members, and he said the point of FTP was to get people to buy members, albeit in a slightly less readable and slightly more insulting manner. Your welcome to point out the difference.

 

 

 

BUT THEY DO. They support the player base, might become P2P, and even if they don't, tell friends who might. I told three friends who eventually became members before I did.

 

Already covered in the first post, any update that doesn't directly do one of those three things is a waste of my money.

 

 

 

 

What? So your saying a supposedly horrid (in your own words, a "cesspool") forum will somehow attract members, and that increased member to F2Per interaction won't?

 

Nope, I'm saying it will DETRACT members. Re read the post, you magically flipped the point of it around.

 

 

 

Do you wonder why I do not want to respond to your posts?

 

Not really. It must be inconvenient to be disproved by facts.

 

 

 

Again, COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONTEXT. You were agruing F2P contributes nothing except the possibility of membership, and they're worthless. I'm agruing that they're not.

 

Ok, then answer this: How do they contribute money except from getting members and advertising (which is far overbalanced by server costs)

 

 

 

And hell with it, how does having the forums dissuade membership? Are people honestly going to buy membership simply because of the forums? They're going to sign up because of a "cesspool" forum, not because of the twenty times as much content they recieve. Face it, membership will not decrease simply because high level F2P gets a forum. What's the point of a forum if you don't actually play the game it supports?

 

And how is it going to increase membership? Every one of the points you mentioned would be to AVOID new members, not get new ones.

[compfreak847]

 

Why should I concede if he's being an idiot then?

 

 

 

I do realize, however, I have taken this argument way too far, and for that I apologize for being an idiot and not stopping three pages ago. :(

 

Ignore the naysayers, they wouldn't be able to ascertain either of our intelligence levels by these few posts, and disagreeing with someone has nothing whatsoever to do with their intelligence. You've done a good job keeping it up so far, so you certainly haven't been acting like an idiot, and with an IQ in the top .01% of the population, I know I'm not. My love of debating laughs in the face of 12 year olds flaming me with barely readable insults :lol:

[Wingless]

 

COOOONTEEEEXT. Just because he said it, does NOT MEAN it's the exact same thing.

 

You would do a lot better if you stopped whining about context and started discussing the issues. I said that the point of FTP was to get people to buy members, and he said the point of FTP was to get people to buy members, albeit in a slightly less readable and slightly more insulting manner. Your welcome to point out the difference.

 

 

 

BUT THEY DO. They support the player base, might become P2P, and even if they don't, tell friends who might. I told three friends who eventually became members before I did.

 

Already covered in the first post, any update that doesn't directly do one of those three things is a waste of my money.

 

 

 

 

What? So your saying a supposedly horrid (in your own words, a "cesspool") forum will somehow attract members, and that increased member to F2Per interaction won't?

 

Nope, I'm saying it will DETRACT members. Re read the post, you magically flipped the point of it around.

 

 

 

Do you wonder why I do not want to respond to your posts?

 

Not really. It must be inconvenient to be disproved by facts.

 

 

 

Again, COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONTEXT. You were agruing F2P contributes nothing except the possibility of membership, and they're worthless. I'm agruing that they're not.

 

Ok, then answer this: How do they contribute money except from getting members and advertising (which is far overbalanced by server costs)

 

 

 

And hell with it, how does having the forums dissuade membership? Are people honestly going to buy membership simply because of the forums? They're going to sign up because of a "cesspool" forum, not because of the twenty times as much content they recieve. Face it, membership will not decrease simply because high level F2P gets a forum. What's the point of a forum if you don't actually play the game it supports?

 

And how is it going to increase membership? Every one of the points you mentioned would be to AVOID new members, not get new ones.

 

 

 

Okay, sorry to get involved (again), but I think you need to stop too. AlexRose has quieted down and apologized for arguing, and I think you should just quieten down - no you don't have to apologize Well, yes you do actually. because you have made your point Several of themand we have heard you. Now can we just actually discuss the topic, and not hows F2P'ers waste Jagex's Everything, apparently time and cash?

[BabyPunchers]

I was okay with this until I saw how the Thread starter acts.. Not ever going to go to the RSOF now.

[Bauke]

.

 

While they are relevant, on average PTP is going to have more experience and more relevant posts - more players means more useless rubbish to sort through, and the lower the percentage of good posts the worse. The payment is for the privilege, they aren't forcing you to and I know a lot of people who think ROSF posting is a big deal.

 

 

P2P does have more experience, probably.. but F2P players will comment on their own version of the game. Perhaps they have some interesting stuff to say about how Jagex could make F2P more appealing for starting players, and such.

 

 

 

Oh and I wasn't very serious about the posting on the RSOF part. I thought that was clear.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, the voices of experienced F2P players will be heared now. Those are relevant. They can tell Jagex about how to improve the free game in a decent way (and by decent I don't mean the "I wantz moar contentz pl0x" whines you see a lot).

 

 

 

Sorry dude, there's going to be HUGE AMOUNTS OF SPAM with some gold nuggets here and there, and the chances of them being found are drastically low. I mean, take a look at how P2P players conduct themselves. Now think of that, but several times larger, and angrier (despite the fact that they just got forum freedom). We can only hope for the best.

 

 

P2P players are as [developmentally delayed]ed as they can get. F2P is not anything worse. Also, I do expect that the F2P players with more experience are able to post sensibly on the forums. In fact I think that the average posting level of the F2P'ers will be higher than in P2P'ers, since there are experience requirements for F2P before they can post on the forums. While it gives no guarantee, experienced players do tend to be a bit more sensible.

 

 

 

Anyways, whatever it will be... huge amounts of spam is quite unlikely. It can't get any worse than what it is now.

[compfreak847]

 

Okay, sorry to get involved (again), but I think you need to stop too. AlexRose has quieted down and apologized for arguing, and I think you should just quieten down - no you don't have to apologize Well, yes you do actually. because you have made your point Several of themand we have heard you. Now can we just actually discuss the topic, and not hows F2P'ers waste Jagex's Everything, apparently time and cash?

 

Discussion: To consider or examine by argument, comment, etc. (Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discuss)

 

 

 

As long as people continue to disagree with me, I'll disagree with them and back up my post. I don't intend to apologize for being right, as I have complied with all of tip.its rules and stated my argument in a mature and well thought out fashion. Sorry, but any offense you draw out of that is your own fault and I take no responsibility for it.

[Wingless]

 

Okay, sorry to get involved (again), but I think you need to stop too. AlexRose has quieted down and apologized for arguing, and I think you should just quieten down - no you don't have to apologize Well, yes you do actually. because you have made your point Several of themand we have heard you. Now can we just actually discuss the topic, and not hows F2P'ers waste Jagex's Everything, apparently time and cash?

 

Discussion: To consider or examine by argument, comment, etc. (Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/discuss)

 

 

 

As long as people continue to disagree with me, I'll disagree with them and back up my post. I don't intend to apologize for being right, as I have complied with all of tip.its rules and stated my argument in a mature and well thought out fashion. Sorry, but any offense you draw out of that is your own fault and I take no responsibility for it.

 

 

 

I didn't say you offended me, just de-railed the topic by 'backing up your arguements' and such. And, I said you didn't need to apologize.

 

So, if everyone can just shutup about the F2P-Waste Time/Money escapade, and we can actually re-rail this thread?

 

Thanks.

[compfreak847]

P2P does have more experience, probably.. but F2P players will comment on their own version of the game. Perhaps they have some interesting stuff to say about how Jagex could make F2P more appealing for starting players, and such.

 

We've all been through starting FTP, and Jagex could care less about what high level FTP enjoys and what they don't - if anything, they'll take that and develop a members only version to convince more people to upgrade.

 

 

 

Oh and I wasn't very serious about the posting on the RSOF part. I thought that was clear.

 

Didn't realize that, sorry :P

 

 

 

 

Anyways, whatever it will be... huge amounts of spam is quite unlikely. It can't get any worse than what it is now.

 

It most certainly can. Drop the average age and the average maturity drops along with it.

[AlexRose]

 

You would do a lot better if you stopped whining about context and started discussing the issues. I said that the point of FTP was to get people to buy members, and he said the point of FTP was to get people to buy members, albeit in a slightly less readable and slightly more insulting manner. Your welcome to point out the difference.

 

 

 

 

But see, intentions (context) and words are two different things. You're absolutely right that you said the same two things, but he meant it in a positive way to f2p, you meant it in a negative way. You didn't really counter his agrument that it's a postive factor, other than by just requoting your post. But truth be told, I really did not make that clear at all.

 

 

 

BUT THEY DO. They support the player base, might become P2P, and even if they don't, tell friends who might. I told three friends who eventually became members before I did.[/qoute]

 

Already covered in the first post, any update that doesn't directly do one of those three things is a waste of my money

.

 

 

 

But see, almost all updates do this...

 

 

 

Oh wait, you're agruing that the forums wouldn't? Well, I guess I could argue that it would give f2p a voice and a forum, thus making the expirence more enjoyable (by suggested updates and such), but in practical busniess terms, you're most likely correct. However, I do believe that F2P deserves more of a voice, and I will stand by that. It's not like they're taking a month just for this or anything. Yeah sure, they have to put some time and effort, but it won't be game breaking for you or anything, especially since you don't really like the RSOF that much.

 

 

 

 

Nope, I'm saying it will DETRACT members. Re read the post, you magically flipped the point of it around.

 

 

 

 

It's easy enough to detract members by taking away something (*cough* wilderness), but an update that is passive (as in, won't affect it unless you want it to) to key gamepoints will almost always not detract members.

 

 

 

Not really. It must be inconvenient to be disproved by facts.

 

 

 

Most of this argument has been (logical) opinion and nothing more. The graph is the only real evidence we have, and wasn't exactly conclusive on either point.

 

 

 

 

 

I need to go, so I can't respond to more.

[Bauke]

 

We've all been through starting FTP, and Jagex could care less about what high level FTP enjoys and what they don't - if anything, they'll take that and develop a members only version to convince more people to upgrade.

 

 

Likely. So that means it gives Jagex information about the game design. That's a win for Jagex. What I'm trying to say is that Jagex can get insights in the nature of the experienced F2P player by hearing their voices, and act upon that to maximize their efficiency in which they make people get membership.

 

 

 

An example which I can think of is a "when would you get membership" enquiry for F2P players on the forum.. or anything a bit more subtle.

 

 

Anyways, whatever it will be... huge amounts of spam is quite unlikely. It can't get any worse than what it is now.

 

It most certainly can. Drop the average age and the average maturity drops along with it.

 

If the average age is lowered, that is probable. Though, only high level F2P players get the chance to post on the forums. I don't know what their average level is, but it could well be higher than the average P2P'er due to the fact that being experienced takes up time, and thus will probably increase the average age of the "experienced F2P'er".

[compfreak847]

 

But see, intentions (context) and words are two different things. You're absolutely right that you said the same two things, but he meant it in a positive way to f2p, you meant it in a negative way. You didn't really counter his agrument that it's a postive factor, other than by just requoting your post. But truth be told, I really did not make that clear at all.

 

No, you still didn't. I said it in a positive way to FTP too - the ONLY positive part of FTP :?

 

 

 

 

Most of this argument has been (logical) opinion and nothing more. The graph is the only real evidence we have, and wasn't exactly conclusive on either point.

 

It was completely conclusive - FTP is nothing but a drag on Jagex, with operating costs far outstripping revenue, paid for out of member pockets. The ONLY reason for an update is to reel in more members, and any update that does not is simply depriving members of paid-for updates. Exactly what I said in my first post, with the proof to back it up.

 

 

 

 

I need to go, so I can't respond to more.

 

Aww, we had a good argument going :(

 

 

 

 

Likely. So that means it gives Jagex information about the game design. That's a win for Jagex. What I'm trying to say is that Jagex can get insights in the nature of the experienced F2P player by hearing their voices, and act upon that to maximize their efficiency in which they make people get membership.

 

That's what I said - the only reason they can do this is so that they can find out what high levels enjoy, then take it away from them and release a better PTP version of it.

 

 

 

 

If the average age is lowered, that is probable. Though, only high level F2P players get the chance to post on the forums. I don't know what their average level is, but it could well be higher than the average P2P'er due to the fact that being experienced takes up time, and thus will probably increase the average age of the "experienced F2P'er".

 

With comments like the '750,000 high level players', I don't have much hope on that front.

[Clay_More12]

Comp, are you active on RSOF?

[Bauke]

 

 

 

That's what I said - the only reason they can do this is so that they can find out what high levels enjoy, then take it away from them and release a better PTP version of it.

 

 

Well I doubt they'll remove anything. No more bring wildy back crap equivalents please...

 

 

With comments like the '750,000 high level players', I don't have much hope on that front.

 

Perhaps I'm being too hopeful. 750k sounds like too much. I hope Jagex actually looks at time put in the game. That's the best parameter imo. Also gives people the time to mature a bit.

[compfreak847]

Comp, are you active on RSOF?

 

I'm more of a lurker. I read a lot of threads, but I generally don't post (it would get lost in the flood of 'stuipd' posts anyway).

[Clay_More12]

Btw none of you guys know whats exactly going to happen... they might have a F2P Forums only.. or a max of 20 posts a day..