I'd Like My 4th Amendment Back, Please

[l0l0lpur34]

Why did we ever even begin bothering them? Because they killed Americans. They are or were being held under charge, its called war crimes. You wonder how we know their terrorists? Well not ever single person walking around in those nations are terrorists and usually the ones who are not terrorists don't carry AK-17's or bomb making supplies. You know, usually they have guns on their backs... Kinda gives it away... or maybe the shots being fired at our soldiers, that just might give them a slight hint.

 

 

 

One of the reasons they are locked up is because they shot at an American, or have been identified as hostile.. Go over to the middle east, follow around a battalion, get shot at.. and then tell me the guy who shot at you is not a terrorist.

 

 

 

There are too many damn [kitties] now a-days. Peace may fix some stuff, but it is not a solution to everything and that 's just that.

 

Imagine another country sent in thousands of it's soldiers with guns and tanks and bombs and blew up your city... then tell me you wouldn't be annoyed at that country.

[Nowayout59]

I would be annoyed, but that would never happen in America, plus when at my dads I'm next to Camp Lejeune and when at my Mom's I'm only 45 Mins from Fort Bragg so we would kick [wagon].

[Racheya]

I would be annoyed, but that would never happen in America, plus when at my dads I'm next to Camp Lejeune and when at my Mom's I'm only 45 Mins from Fort Bragg so we would kick [wagon].

 

I think he's trying to make more of a point than that, not literally thousands of soliders coming at your door. #-o

 

 

 

And don't be so quick to assume it won't happen because you're in America, you never know.

[l0l0lpur34]

Jerusalem belongs to Israel. It's their land and no one else's.

 

I bet you can't even find Israel on a map

 

I would be annoyed, but that would never happen in America, plus when at my dads I'm next to Camp Lejeune and when at my Mom's I'm only 45 Mins from Fort Bragg so we would kick [wagon].

 

My point was that this whole "every country in the world except america are all subhuman terrorists" attitude is disgusting to say the least.

[Makoto_the_Phoenix]

[before I begin, I'm surprised that this whole thing escalated into this heated debate about torture and what-not. It's about the 4th Amendment, security, and stuff like that - and perhaps torture ties into that in some mutated, convoluted knot. This'll be my last post on that matter, and more on to the 4th Amendment in subsequent posts. Don't dwell on this side discussion too much longer.]

 

 

 

So your saying that 20 American soldiers lives are not worth some pin [puncture]'s emotions who would most likely run into the group of the marines with a bomb strapped to him, given the opportunity? If so then you are one screwed up person.. What happened to support the troops? If the US had to kill 20 terrorists to save 15 American lives, they got my 110% support. The terrorists belong in hell, were just giving them a one way ticket. Gitmo is not as bad as they put it, the guard there watching the damn hodgies got worse treatment then them. They got 3 square meals a day, prayer time, and what do the guards get? Crap thrown at them, they sometimes go without food for a day or 2, they have to put up with the losers. In retrospect, they are barely hurt. You may not know this but torture is a reliable way, they squeal, they get sent back to their cell, the info is confirmed or denied, if it is denied the hodgie gets another visit from the conductor. This happens until the info is received.

 

 

 

If you think peace with someone will solve the problems, tell me, I will buy you a ticket there and you can talk it out. Tell me how it goes.

 

 

 

You know, I was trying to give you a graceful out, with what dignity you had left. But no, you had to go and throw THIS in my face. It pisses me off royal how ignorant someone like yourself can be, but let me at least TRY to enlighten you...

 

 

 

To begin with, your very definition of "terrorist" is skewed beyond imagination. It's not just soldiers that deal with them, you know - police do too. Remember Timothy McVeigh? He was responsible for the Oklahoma bombing, and by every definition of the word, he was a terrorist. Would torturing him have gotten any valuable information? NO. How did they handle the situation? For the bombings he committed, he was arrested, tried before a jury, and eventually put to death. Without exception, this is how we should treat everyone that we believe is a terrorist. They should at the very least have the chance to defend themselves, or be detained with some kind of justification.

 

 

 

Next, you view terrorists in a racist light. I'm not going to bother pointing this out to everyone else (since it's not hard to read between the lines), but that's just wrong. Terrorists come from any country, even the USA.

 

 

 

Third, if you can't interrogate a terrorist suspect without putting your hands on them, then you should quit your job (if your supervisor is merciful), or you should be thrown right along in there. Period. If you can't control your temper around suspects, then you do NOT need to be working with people. Regardless of whether or not they're accused of being a terrorist, that doesn't make them any less human, nor does it subject them to any less fair treatment than any other prisoner in our system.

 

 

 

You said that your folks were in the armed forces. Ask them how they feel about torture. I think you'll be radically surprised, as many of the soldiers I know are beyond adamantly against such a barbaric thing.

 

 

 

Why did we ever even begin bothering them? Because they killed Americans. They are or were being held under charge, its called war crimes. You wonder how we know their terrorists? Well not ever single person walking around in those nations are terrorists and usually the ones who are not terrorists don't carry AK-17's or bomb making supplies. You know, usually they have guns on their backs... Kinda gives it away... or maybe the shots being fired at our soldiers, that just might give them a slight hint.

 

 

 

Are you ignorant or just plain STUPID? Americans shoot at Americans ALL THE FREAKING TIME! Does that make them terrorists too, in your screwed-up little world?! Or are you only concerned with the Americans being shot at in some country where hostiles are expected?

 

 

 

One of the reasons they are locked up is because they shot at an American, or have been identified as hostile.. Go over to the middle east, follow around a battalion, get shot at.. and then tell me the guy who shot at you is not a terrorist.

 

 

 

Okay.

 

 

 

I have a friend who's in a battalion over in Afghanistan RIGHT NOW. He's been on the front lines, and I thank God every day that he not only comes back from dogfights with insurgents alive, but that he's doing this for our country. They're not all terrorists, you know - some of them are just defending their lands (and they feel that we're intruding on their ground), or are being otherwise coerced into combat. That doesn't make them terrorists. Besides, all of the murders and attempted murders involving Americans didn't get the accused (or convicted) labled as terrorist...why should it in this situation?

 

 

 

Think about it - we've declared war on some insurgent group, we go to some insurgent group's home base, we get shot at. Automatically makes them terrorists, huh? Isn't this the same as any old war - we go to their stronghold, they defend their stronghold in a fierce battle...that sort of thing? I guess by your definition, this would make the English terrorists in their own right, when they were defending THEIR castles against France in the Hundred Years' War. My advice to you: go read a freaking book.

 

 

 

There are too many damn [kitties] now a-days. Peace may fix some stuff, but it is not a solution to everything and that 's just that.

 

Peace may not be the solution to everything, but neither is violence. We don't have to be [kitties] to not want to torture someone; we just have to be human.

 

 

 

[EDIT] Looking back, there was a lot of stuff here that I said in the heat of fury. Sorry if it came across too strongly, but that's how I feel about it. You should read up on what torture actually entails, since it's not just a few slaps across the face, or threatening folks. Use buzz words, such as "Iron Maiden", and "Spanish Inquisition", and while you're at it, take a look at a "rack". There are some torture methods that were employed against the Americans in the Vietnamese war as well.

 

 

 

Perhaps you're not as stupid as you sound; perhaps you just don't understand.

[Howlin0001]

Jerusalem belongs to Israel. It's their land and no one else's.

 

And your point is?

[Nowayout59]

I have asked all my parents about torture in the past, they are all for it. They have always been for it, and I am almost positive they will always be for it.

 

 

 

I never said every other race/country is subhuman to the US, technically I'm a Scottish and American citizen. I have family in the Uk, Germany, Russia, Czech Republic, and honestly, I don't think the terrorists in the middle east I was referring to are subhuman, just so freaking xrazy that peace is not even an option.

[magekillr]

I have asked all my parents about torture in the past, they are all for it. They have always been for it, and I am almost positive they will always be for it.

 

 

 

I never said every other race/country is subhuman to the US, technically I'm a Scottish and American citizen. I have family in the Uk, Germany, Russia, Czech Republic, and honestly, I don't think the terrorists in the middle east I was referring to are subhuman, just so freaking xrazy that peace is not even an option.

 

 

 

Why do you believe in torture?

[Robert_de_Sable]

I believe in violating the Geneva Conventions under certain circumstances, for example while interrogating a terrorist. Those people spit on the Geneva Conventions, yet we make sure they get perfect health care and a prayer mat to use while in prison.

[l0l0lpur34]

I believe in violating the Geneva Conventions under certain circumstances, for example while interrogating a terrorist. Those people spit on the Geneva Conventions, yet we make sure they get perfect health care and a prayer mat to use while in prison.

 

By the look at some of your other posts on here you spit at all forms of human rights, freedom and democracy

[Robert_de_Sable]

Pardon me? Am I the one blowing up groups of innocent people on buses? I do not go out of my way to deny people rights. I say what I say in the belief that Life>Freedom. You're welcome to disagree with me.

[user1991]

Pardon me? Am I the one blowing up groups of innocent people on buses? I do not go out of my way to deny people rights. I say what I say in the belief that Life>Freedom. You're welcome to disagree with me.

 

 

 

 

 

You pay no attention to anyone with different opinions of freedom to yours, and you would happily have the government control every aspect of our lives. I wonder what you would say if the government threw you in prison and tortured you for being an authoritarian? It would be somewhat hypocritical of them, but the point still stands. What if Obama suddenly became a dictator and said "every right wing person is going to be executed and put in a labour camp." Would you still be for totalitarianism and authoritarianism then?

[magekillr]

Pardon me? Am I the one blowing up groups of innocent people on buses? I do not go out of my way to deny people rights. I say what I say in the belief that Life>Freedom. You're welcome to disagree with me.

 

 

 

You have no empathy for anyone other than yourself. It's truly sad. Why do they not deserve the same human rights as anyone else, especially when torture has been proven NOT to work, and will in fact make things worse by encouraging terrorist recruitment and give faulty intelligence.

[l0l0lpur34]

Pardon me? Am I the one blowing up groups of innocent people on buses? I do not go out of my way to deny people rights. I say what I say in the belief that Life>Freedom. You're welcome to disagree with me.

 

You don't care about anyone but yourself, and you openly support "authoritiarianism".

 

 

 

e.g: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=789797

[Nowayout59]

You pay no attention to anyone with different opinions of freedom to yours, and you would happily have the government control every aspect of our lives.

 

 

 

You "Mossiah" is already doing that. Now anyone under the age of 13 can't buy a dirt bike because they are afraid they might lick the gear box. That is defiantly not controlling my life!

 

 

 

You have no empathy for anyone other than yourself. It's truly sad. Why do they not deserve the same human rights as anyone else, especially when torture has been proven NOT to work, and will in fact make things worse by encouraging terrorist recruitment and give faulty intelligence.

 

 

 

When they became a terrorist they gave up their human rights. They can step all over every other persons but when they get caught they go and hide behind the rights they just so blatantly blew up.

 

 

 

You say that the torture encourages terrorism... Who did what first? They attacked us, we retaliated. Point Blank.

 

 

 

Robert keep on fighting.

[l0l0lpur34]

You pay no attention to anyone with different opinions of freedom to yours, and you would happily have the government control every aspect of our lives.

 

 

 

You "Mossiah" is already doing that. Now anyone under the age of 13 can't buy a dirt bike because they are afraid they might lick the gear box. That is defiantly not controlling my life!

 

 

 

You have no empathy for anyone other than yourself. It's truly sad. Why do they not deserve the same human rights as anyone else, especially when torture has been proven NOT to work, and will in fact make things worse by encouraging terrorist recruitment and give faulty intelligence.

 

 

 

When they became a terrorist they gave up their human rights. They can step all over every other persons but when they get caught they go and hide behind the rights they just so blatantly blew up.

 

 

 

You say that the torture encourages terrorism... Who did what first? They attacked us, we retaliated. Point Blank.

 

 

 

Robert keep on fighting.

 

Who do you mean by "they"? muslims? and lol @ the statement I highlighted.

[Nowayout59]

In the first statement, I mean the government.

 

 

 

In the 2nd one I mean which ever terrorist's rights we are violating. I intended it to refer to Al Qaeda.

[user1991]

You pay no attention to anyone with different opinions of freedom to yours, and you would happily have the government control every aspect of our lives.

 

 

 

You "Mossiah" is already doing that. Now anyone under the age of 13 can't buy a dirt bike because they are afraid they might lick the gear box. That is defiantly not controlling my life!

 

 

 

You have no empathy for anyone other than yourself. It's truly sad. Why do they not deserve the same human rights as anyone else, especially when torture has been proven NOT to work, and will in fact make things worse by encouraging terrorist recruitment and give faulty intelligence.

 

 

 

When they became a terrorist they gave up their human rights. They can step all over every other persons but when they get caught they go and hide behind the rights they just so blatantly blew up.

 

 

 

You say that the torture encourages terrorism... Who did what first? They attacked us, we retaliated. Point Blank.

 

 

 

Robert keep on fighting.

 

 

 

Messiah? I assume that you're calling me an Obama freak. Well first of all, I don't live in the USA, and second, even if I did I wouldn't have voted for Obama.

 

 

 

Your understanding of terrorism and its causes is so simplistic its actually making me cringe reading your post.

 

 

 

There are lots of reasons people become terrorists, some are our fault, some aren't. For example, overthrowing a democratically elected government in Iran in order to install a dictator who was sympathetic to Western interests causes future generations to hate us. Decades of imperialism in the Middle East causes future generations to hate us. Never criticizing Israel, regardless of their disproportionately violent retaliatory attacks against Palestine on a UN school and supply trucks during agreed cease fire time, as well as their treating of Palestinians as animals, causes the Middle East to hate us. (Palestine aren't perfect either, don't infer that I'm saying that, but we're always quick to criticize them.) Having secret prisons where people are tortured (most of which have never been charged with any crimes) causes the Middle East to hate us. I'm not justifying terrorism, so don't even try to pull a Giuliani on me, but if you're not going to admit to the West doing anything wrong at any point, then frankly you're just in so much denial that you don't know what reality is, or you're just blind.

 

 

 

We aren't against combating terrorism. What you're arguing for is the violation of basic human rights. You want the government to have a ridiculous amount of power that they WILL abuse. History has shown that governments cannot be trusted with so much power. I don't know about you, but Robert_de_Sable is certainly an authoritarian and a totalitarian, which basically means he wants to subject his will onto the people without any sort of democratic process, without anyone having a say, and with the government dictating personal freedoms regardless of public opinion or international law.

 

 

 

You say, "when they became a terrorist, they gave up their human rights." Again, you're assuming that the people we're torturing ARE actually terrorists (even if they were, evidence has shown that torture only leads to bad intelligence and further recruitment propaganda for terrorist groups as well as further disdain towards the West in the Middle East) even though most of them have never been charged with any crime. Do you understand what this means? THEY HAVEN'T BEEN CHARGED WITH ANY CRIME.

 

 

 

Look, this all comes down to what you want to happen to the world. You have the warfare mentality (hence the "keep on fighting Robert" comment) so naturally you view everything as an "it's either us or them!" when in actuality there are resolutions to these issues. If you want to actually stop terrorism, or at least get it to a minimum, we can't be torturing people. You can call this appeasement if you like, but it isn't. What you advocate is ridiculous. You don't understand the role of government in society and you don't understand what government is actually meant to exist for. What would you say if Obama decided to lock you up for the rest of your life hauling rocks up and down hills, just for being right wing?

[mmmcannibalism]

You pay no attention to anyone with different opinions of freedom to yours, and you would happily have the government control every aspect of our lives.

 

 

 

You "Mossiah" is already doing that. Now anyone under the age of 13 can't buy a dirt bike because they are afraid they might lick the gear box. That is defiantly not controlling my life!

 

 

 

You have no empathy for anyone other than yourself. It's truly sad. Why do they not deserve the same human rights as anyone else, especially when torture has been proven NOT to work, and will in fact make things worse by encouraging terrorist recruitment and give faulty intelligence.

 

 

 

When they became a terrorist they gave up their human rights. They can step all over every other persons but when they get caught they go and hide behind the rights they just so blatantly blew up.

 

 

 

You say that the torture encourages terrorism... Who did what first? They attacked us, we retaliated. Point Blank.

 

 

 

Robert keep on fighting.

 

 

 

Messiah? I assume that you're calling me an Obama freak. Well first of all, I don't live in the USA, and second, even if I did I wouldn't have voted for Obama.

 

 

 

Your understanding of terrorism and its causes is so simplistic its actually making me cringe reading your post.

 

 

 

There are lots of reasons people become terrorists, some are our fault, some aren't. For example, overthrowing a democratically elected government in Iran in order to install a dictator who was sympathetic to Western interests causes future generations to hate us. Decades of imperialism in the Middle East causes future generations to hate us. Never criticizing Israel, regardless of their disproportionately violent retaliatory attacks against Palestine on a UN school and supply trucks during agreed cease fire time, as well as their treating of Palestinians as animals, causes the Middle East to hate us. (Palestine aren't perfect either, don't infer that I'm saying that, but we're always quick to criticize them.) Having secret prisons where people are tortured (most of which have never been charged with any crimes) causes the Middle East to hate us. I'm not justifying terrorism, so don't even try to pull a Giuliani on me, but if you're not going to admit to the West doing anything wrong at any point, then frankly you're just in so much denial that you don't know what reality is, or you're just blind.

 

 

 

We aren't against combating terrorism. What you're arguing for is the violation of basic human rights. You want the government to have a ridiculous amount of power that they WILL abuse. History has shown that governments cannot be trusted with so much power. I don't know about you, but Robert_de_Sable is certainly an authoritarian and a totalitarian, which basically means he wants to subject his will onto the people without any sort of democratic process, without anyone having a say, and with the government dictating personal freedoms regardless of public opinion or international law.

 

 

 

You say, "when they became a terrorist, they gave up their human rights." Again, you're assuming that the people we're torturing ARE actually terrorists (even if they were, evidence has shown that torture only leads to bad intelligence and further recruitment propaganda for terrorist groups as well as further disdain towards the West in the Middle East) even though most of them have never been charged with any crime. Do you understand what this means? THEY HAVEN'T BEEN CHARGED WITH ANY CRIME.

 

 

 

Look, this all comes down to what you want to happen to the world. You have the warfare mentality (hence the "keep on fighting Robert" comment) so naturally you view everything as an "it's either us or them!" when in actuality there are resolutions to these issues. If you want to actually stop terrorism, or at least get it to a minimum, we can't be torturing people. You can call this appeasement if you like, but it isn't. What you advocate is ridiculous. You don't understand the role of government in society and you don't understand what government is actually meant to exist for. What would you say if Obama decided to lock you up for the rest of your life hauling rocks up and down hills, just for being right wing?

 

 

 

That was nice True, I will however point out that most if not all of the guantanamo detainies were captured in combat whether or not they have been formally charged. We should give them due process, but its not like we just grabbed a bunch of guys in afghanstan and threw them in prison.

[magekillr]

In the first statement, I mean the government.

 

 

 

In the 2nd one I mean which ever terrorist's rights we are violating. I intended it to refer to Al Qaeda.

 

 

 

Just because someone has violated your rights does not give you the right to abandon your privilege to respect theirs. Tell me, what is the point of torturing if it doesn't give us anything, builds resentment among those detained, and no lives are saved? There's not been ONE recorded moment in history where torture was needed or provided ANY results.

 

 

 

And True, about the secret prisons, here's some progress:

 

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/10/world ... ?ref=world

 

 

 

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/ameri ... 94735.html

 

 

 

And about this, Senator Russ Feingold is trying to build together a coalition to destroy this "state secrets" [cabbage] once and for all:

 

 

 

I am troubled that once again the Obama administration has decided to invoke the state secrets privilege in a case challenging the previous administration's alleged misconduct. The Obama administration's action, on top of Congress's mistaken decision last year to give immunity to the telecommunications companies that allegedly participated in the warrantless wiretapping program, will make it even harder for courts to rule on the legality of that program. In February, I asked for a classified briefing so that I can understand the reasons for the Department's decision to invoke the privilege in another case, and I intend to seek information on this new case as well. I also encourage the greatest possible public accounting of the use of the state secrets privilege and welcome the Attorney General's statement that he hopes to share his review with the American people.

 

 

 

Beyond the particular case at issue here, it is clear that there is an urgent need for legislation to give better guidance to the courts on how to handle assertions of the state secrets privilege. The American people must be able to have confidence that the privilege is not being used to shield government misconduct. That is why I am working with Senators Leahy, Specter, and others to pass the State Secrets Protection Act as soon as possible.

 

 

 

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.c ... ts_cla.php

 

 

 

The only people that call Obama "The Messiah" are the far right conservatives. As a matter of fact, Glenn Greenwald did a field study on this exact thing, and has found that the left is far more critical of their own side than the conservatives are. Conservatives get in line and go along with the ride, whereas the left will never stop being critical if they see injustices:

 

 

 

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/ ... criticism/

[magekillr]

but its not like we just grabbed a bunch of guys in afghanstan and threw them in prison.

 

 

 

It's not?

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipton_Three

[user1991]

The only people that call Obama "The Messiah" are the far right conservatives. As a matter of fact, Glenn Greenwald did a field study on this exact thing, and has found that the left is far more critical of their own side than the conservatives are. Conservatives get in line and go along with the ride, whereas the left will never stop being critical if they see injustices:

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

 

 

Obama, like any mainstream politician, will have people that support him regardless of his policies or whether he comes through on his promises. The difference between Obama and Bush however is that with Obama, these people are in the minority, whereas with the neo-cons, they were the vast majority.

 

 

 

For example, does anyone remember the neo-con cries of "freedom hating leftists!" and "they hate us because we're free!", whilst at the same time they were supporting the suspension of habeas corpus and posse comitatus? Now actual conservatives are different if I'm being honest, they are usually Ron Paul type libertarians, however these neo-cons are authoritarian nationalists. The neoconservatives aren't conservative.

[mmmcannibalism]

but its not like we just grabbed a bunch of guys in afghanstan and threw them in prison.

 

 

 

It's not?

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipton_Three

 

 

 

considering one of them admitted to having been trained as an islmaic militant and another refused to take a lie detector I would say its not. Secondly, most of their abuse claims are patently ridiculous, I would suggest you stop drinking the kool aid.

 

 

 

It is apparent the gitmo situation was a bad move. We can play demonize everyone involved for the rest of eternity or accept the fact that it was not nearly as bad as you want to pretend. A small civil rights violation of people who were involved with al queda isnt exactly terrible. If there were people detained on nothing then they should recieve fair compensation and a review of the detention process is warranted, that doesnt mean we should abandon the holding of people that are a threat.

[Robert_de_Sable]

Pardon me? Am I the one blowing up groups of innocent people on buses? I do not go out of my way to deny people rights. I say what I say in the belief that Life>Freedom. You're welcome to disagree with me.

 

 

 

You have no empathy for anyone other than yourself. It's truly sad. Why do they not deserve the same human rights as anyone else, especially when torture has been proven NOT to work, and will in fact make things worse by encouraging terrorist recruitment and give faulty intelligence.

 

 

 

You have no empathy for anyone other than yourself.

 

You base this on the fact that I believe in totalitarianism. I just finished visiting my cousin in the hospital, [wagon].

 

 

 

Why do they not deserve the same human rights as anyone else

 

Is this a [bleep]ing joke? They're goddamn terrorists. They don't qualify as human beings.

 

 

 

especially when torture has been proven NOT to work

 

Everyone cracks under torture. No exceptions.

[warri0r45]

I believe in violating the Geneva Conventions under certain circumstances, for example while interrogating a terrorist. Those people spit on the Geneva Conventions, yet we make sure they get perfect health care and a prayer mat to use while in prison.

 

 

 

What if they're a suspected terrorist? Would you torture then? What if they're actually innocent?

 

 

 

I'd also argue that upholding the Geneva conventions and treating terrorists with dignity says a lot about our character. Sure, it may leave a bitter taste in your mouth, but it's an elegant way of saying "[bleep] you, we're better than that". In other words, we can claim the moral high-ground.

 

 

 

especially when torture has been proven NOT to work

 

Everyone cracks under torture. No exceptions.

 

 

 

What do you mean by "cracks"? It doesn't matter whether they break down and start talking if the argument being made is that the information isn't reliable. Do either you or mage have any good research or evidence for your respective points of view?