Good nastalgia or good ol' BS?

[compfreak847]

 

Untill I see proof I won't present any? No need to disprove something that isn't relevant.

 

According to the definition of "proof" (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proof), "evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true", should I post proof, there's nothing else you could post to rectify it - proof establishes it as true, period, and signifies the end of a debate. Not that I'm lacking in sources - I've already posted 11; you must have overlooked them. I'll repost them for your benefit:

 

 

 

Math related:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buisness

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra

 

http://www.mathleague.com/help/algebra/algebra.htm

 

http://library.thinkquest.org/20991/prealg/eq.html

 

 

 

Definition related:

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/for-profit

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_sch ... th_America

 

http://www.jagex.com/corporate/About/history.ws

 

http://www.runescape.com/members/members.ws

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proof

 

 

 

Financially related:

 

http://www.mechscapeworld.com/images/re ... erview.gif

 

http://www.mechscapeworld.com/images/re ... xStaff.jpg

 

 

 

You posted one source, the definition of Assume, that stemmed from a misinterpretation of my post which I corrected you on, making the definition irrelevant.

 

 

 

Now, let's see some sources from you that relate to the discussion and disprove each of mine.

 

 

 

Um ok. This is your good mood? :| That's a little odd.

 

What's odd about it? I had a good week, it generally puts people in a good mood :?

 

 

 

Anyways you sure act like you hate. :(

 

Already told you I'm not, I'm just brisk and sarcastic when debating. It's me paying attention, not me hating people ;)

[Gmesh]

I still see no proof. Just random links :D Read my previous post again and repeat XD

 

 

 

What's odd about it? I had a good week, it generally puts people in a good mood

 

 

 

I'd rather not deal with your bad mood lol

 

 

 

Already told you I'm not, I'm just brisk and sarcastic when debating. It's me paying attention, not me hating people

 

 

 

Sarcasm FTL. And wow what happened to the flaming and anger? Boy you're moody :|

 

 

 

Oh and yank, your welcome. Our off-topic bickering has made this a hot topic

[compfreak847]

 

I still see no proof. Just random links :D Read my previous post again and repeat XD

 

Since you apparently ignored the posts that detailed the links, I'll helpfully give you the background info:

 

 

 

Math related:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buisness - Proof that for-profit business is expected to turn a profit

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra - Proof that our current decimal system is believed to be accurate

 

http://www.mathleague.com/help/algebra/algebra.htm - Further proof that our current decimal system is believed to be accurate, after your denouncing Wikipedia as a reliable source

 

http://library.thinkquest.org/20991/prealg/eq.html - Further proof that our current decimal system is believed to be accurate, after your denouncing anything not from Jagex as a reliable source

 

 

 

Definition related:

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/for-profit - Proof that "profit" represents a system where incoming (gross profit) cash flow exceeds outgoing (non-recoverable expenditures) as pertaining to Jagex as a for-profit company

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_sch ... th_America - Proof that grade school consists of 6-8th, and in many areas 5-8th grades, not simply 8th

 

http://www.jagex.com/corporate/About/history.ws - Proof that Jagex was created as a corpertaion to make a financially viable profit (Second paragraph; "to make the operation of RuneScape commercially viable")

 

http://www.runescape.com/members/members.ws - Proof that both FTP and PTP are created by Jagex and run solely by them; establishing that the two are interrelated, and cash spent on one must come out of the other if the profit is to remain the same.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/proof - Details of the word "proof" providing evidence that proof itself indicates the finishing of an argument

 

 

 

Financially related:

 

http://www.mechscapeworld.com/images/re ... erview.gif - Proof that server and staff costs do exist, and represent the vast majority of Jagex outlay

 

http://www.mechscapeworld.com/images/re ... xStaff.jpg - Proof that CR makes up a sizable portion of the payroll, as relating to the forums and customer support\communication.

 

 

 

That should clear up anything you missed in the first post :P

 

 

 

I'd rather not deal with your bad mood lol

 

It's hard to read moods over the internet, so I'll just set it straight: I'm in a good mood, no need to think of me as moody any more. I love debating, and life in general is good. I'm a naturally cheerful person, I always think of stress as killing my heart and making me die early. Keeps me stress free, unless I'm really down, in which case it makes it worse. But that's rare :lol:

 

 

 

 

Sarcasm FTL.

 

Some like it, some don't. I'm one of the ones who does :

 

 

 

And wow what happened to the flaming and anger?

 

Mild flaming comes standard with my debates, anger hasn't been seen as of yet.

 

 

 

Boy you're moody :|

 

See above ;)

 

 

 

 

Oh and yank, your welcome. Our off-topic bickering has made this a hot topic

 

It's all on topic, relating to how FTP and PTP separate were a good thing. Posts don't have to follow the exact parameters set out by the OP. And it aint even close to a hot topic, take a look at my "slayer sucks" :lol:

[Gmesh]

Yeah I'm pretty much ignoring the links as of now sorry.

 

 

 

It's hard to read moods over the internet, so I'll just set it straight: I'm in a good mood, no need to think of me as moody any more. I love debating, and life in general is good. I'm a naturally cheerful person, I always think of stress as killing my heart and making me die early. Keeps me stress free, unless I'm really down, in which case it makes it worse. But that's rare

 

 

 

Yes it is. Also hard to read sarcasm lol. Odd um choice of words but ok lol :

 

 

 

I love debating too (most of the time :roll: ) However i've come to realize that debating with you is a lot like runescape. You never really beat it because it keeps updating lol.

 

 

 

 

 

It's all on topic, relating to how FTP and PTP separate were a good thing. Posts don't have to follow the exact parameters set out by the OP. And it aint even close to a hot topic, take a look at my "slayer sucks"

 

 

 

I just got done reading it and I agree, it does suck for exp, but I like to train it so im indifferent -.-

 

 

 

Have fun wasting your time. Your done wasting mine though sorry.

[compfreak847]

Yeah I'm pretty much ignoring the links as of now sorry.

 

Interesting way of saying you lost, but it works. Oddly reminiscent of a child standing in the corner with his fingers in his ears screaming "I'm right!".

 

 

 

 

Yes it is. Also hard to read sarcasm lol. Odd um choice of words but ok lol :^_^

 

Yep, that's what I've been telling you for several pages.

 

 

 

 

I love debating too (most of the time :roll: ) However i've come to realize that debating with you is a lot like runescape. You never really beat it because it keeps updating lol.

 

Or because it has a dozen different sources, all tied into my central argument, and you have yet to produce a single one.

 

 

 

 

I just got done reading it and I agree, it does suck for exp, but I like to train it so im indifferent -.-

 

I like to train it too, and it's a good demonstration of off topicness.

[Mischlings]

Untill I see something from jagex DRIECTLY saying it's slowed down our updates it's just your opinion.

 

 

 

The problem with that is that Jagex has said nothing and likely will say nothing (because, honestly, admitting that giving something to F2P slowed down P2P updates would be one of the dumbest things they could say), therefore we can't rely on Jagex's direct word on how updates have been affected -- saying it slowed things down would make them look bad.

 

 

 

Now, let's back up a bit -- why should we automatically assume that updates will stay at the same rate after this? I came back in March from a long hiatus to find that updates were a lot more random and scattered than before, therefore we cannot assume that updates will stay at a consistent rate. They can and do change, so what causes the change? In that case, a different CEO with a different take on running the game. Most likely a larger change than opening up the forums, yes, but if a large change in how the game is run causes a large change in updates, then a small change in how the game is run will cause a small change in updates.

 

 

 

At the same time, can we automatically assume that updates will change in frequency? Not necessarily, as the huge overhaul at the end of 2007 didn't seem to slow down updates much, if at all -- before, during, and after, the updates were pretty steady at the rate of about 1 a week.

 

 

 

Now that I've proven that we can't really assume either side to be correct by default, the burden of proof isn't on one side, but on both. And at risk of sounding biased and like a fanboy (I'm not, I don't always agree with him), Compfreak has done a hell of a lot better at proving his side of the argument.

 

 

 

Where do I stand on this? I don't really care -- I don't need more updates, as I'm already so far behind that Jagex could go a month or more with no new updates and I'd still be catching up.

[Gmesh]

Ill say this.

 

 

 

I HAVE attempted alchemy by clapping my hands together \

[compfreak847]

 

Where do I stand on this? I don't really care -- I don't need more updates, as I'm already so far behind that Jagex could go a month or more with no new updates and I'd still be catching up.

 

But the point is that your in the minority. Many of us enjoy updates, and updates > no updates. I don't like having fewer game updates because my money is distributed to freeloaders; yeah, from their perspective its great, but I'm paying to get updates not give someone else updates.

 

 

 

Moderator edit: What's the point in quoting it and replying, when you know it will be removed? Quote removed.

[yanksrule]

Financially related:

 

http://www.mechscapeworld.com/images/re ... erview.gif - Proof that server and staff costs do exist, and represent the vast majority of Jagex outlay

 

http://www.mechscapeworld.com/images/re ... xStaff.jpg - Proof that CR makes up a sizable portion of the payroll, as relating to the forums and customer support\communication.

 

 

 

 

the links are kinda.... broken/outdated/nonexistent/typo'd

[Mischlings]

But the point is that your in the minority. Many of us enjoy updates, and updates > no updates. I don't like having fewer game updates because my money is distributed to freeloaders; yeah, from their perspective its great, but I'm paying to get updates not give someone else updates.

 

 

 

I know that, I was just clarifying my stance -- for some reason, that comes up in a debate a lot, so I thought that I'd get it out there.

 

 

 

The entire point of that post above was simply to show that both sides in this "Does opening up the forums give us less updates?" debate have to prove their own point -- neither can be assumed to be true automatically. Maybe I wasn't clear enough about that being my point.

[compfreak847]

 

the links are kinda.... broken/outdated/nonexistent/typo'd

 

Oh, dur. TIF autolinks killed them. Here's the fixed version with URL tags:

 

http://www.mechscapeworld.com/images/research/JagexFinancialOverview.gif

 

http://www.mechscapeworld.com/images/research/JagexStaff.jpg

 

 

 

Proof that *someone* didn't even bother looking at my sources, though =D>

 

 

 

 

I know that, I was just clarifying my stance -- for some reason, that comes up in a debate a lot, so I thought that I'd get it out there.

 

I know, but it was a totally separate debate. I said "opening up the forums gives us fewer updates". You said "I don't like updates" :?

[Sir_Redhead]

Back to the original topic of this thread...Those things did not ruin runescape, no matter what we say, and no matter what jagex does, there will always be a group of people waiting for something to yell about.

 

 

 

I remember specifically when Pest Control switched from one boat, to three different boats with a minimum level requirement. There was tons of rants on the RSOF saying that hundreds upon hundreds of people would quit. These rants threads were BIG.

 

 

 

But, runescape moved on. People still do Pest Control, and they enjoy it. It's all a matter of adapting to change. (Similar to the person who compared it to evolution)

 

 

 

Those who didn't like it left, those who were willing to adapt stayed, and Pest Control is as popular as ever.

[Mischlings]

I know, but it was a totally separate debate. I said "opening up the forums gives us fewer updates". You said "I don't like updates" :?

 

 

 

I was saying that I didn't care that the forums were opened up to F2P players. I never said that I don't like updates, just that I could live with them being less common, therefore not caring if they were slowed down. This started with whether opening up the forums was good or bad and I was saying that I was indifferent because I didn't care whether or not it slowed down updates.

 

 

 

(I'm so up to date that I just finished Summer's End on Wednesday!)

[compfreak847]

 

I was saying that I didn't care that the forums were opened up to F2P players. I never said that I don't like updates, just that I could live with them being less common, therefore not caring if they were slowed down. This started with whether opening up the forums was good or bad and I was saying that I was indifferent because I didn't care whether or not it slowed down updates.

 

So do you like updates, or not? If you like updates, reducing them would be a bad thing. If you don't like updates, reducing them wouldn't bother you. I like updates and every now and then it's something I use, so it does bother me.

[Mischlings]

So do you like updates, or not? If you like updates, reducing them would be a bad thing. If you don't like updates, reducing them wouldn't bother you. I like updates and every now and then it's something I use, so it does bother me.

 

 

 

I like updates, but I'm not that bothered by them being reduced in frequency. I don't see what part of that is so hard to understand.

[compfreak847]

 

I like updates, but I'm not that bothered by them being reduced in frequency. I don't see what part of that is so hard to understand.

 

The part where "not caring if they were slowed down" turned into "not bothered". It was a simple yes or no question.

[Mischlings]

The part where "not caring if they were slowed down" turned into "not bothered". It was a simple yes or no question.

 

 

 

I like updates. However, I'm also content with the game the way it is. If there's an update that makes a good change to the game, that's great. At the same time, if they don't make that change, I'll keep on playing the game that I already know. I think the biggest thing to separate from most of the people here is this: I'm not in a hurry.

 

 

 

I don't care and it doesn't bother me. I don't see how the two are so exclusive.

[compfreak847]

I like updates.

 

I don't care

 

 

 

It's exclusive. If you like updates, reducing them is a bad thing and increasing them is a good thing. (Bad that the RSOF is opened) If you don't like updates, reducing them is a good thing and increasing them is a bad thing. (Good that the RSOF is opened). Since 'all updates' includes both good and bad, it boils down to "would you like updates to be released every day at the same quality that they currently are, or would you like updates to never be released again". It's a black and white situation, you can't both want fewer updates and want more.

[Mischlings]

It's exclusive. If you like updates, reducing them is a bad thing and increasing them is a good thing. (Bad that the RSOF is opened) If you don't like updates, reducing them is a good thing and increasing them is a bad thing. (Good that the RSOF is opened). Since 'all updates' includes both good and bad, it boils down to "would you like updates to be released every day at the same quality that they currently are, or would you like updates to never be released again". It's a black and white situation, you can't both want fewer updates and want more.

 

 

 

Updates are good.

 

 

 

The game, in its current state, is good.

 

 

 

Do you see a massive problem in that logic? If you do, that would explain why you have such a problem understanding my case here.

[compfreak847]

Updates are good.

 

Therefore, fewer updates are bad. Yet you are saying that fewer updates are not bad. Do you enjoy updates or not? If you enjoy them, lesser enjoyment due to fewer updates is a "bad" thing; if you don't enjoy them, greater enjoyment due to fewer updates is a "good" thing. It's really quite simple; I don't see why your not seeing what I'm trying to say.

[Mischlings]

You're showing me here that you can completely miss the point in a way that I thought impossible for human beings to accomplish.

 

 

 

Updates are good.

 

 

 

The game in its current state is good.

 

 

 

Do you see a problem with those two statements?

[fenrir321]

Updates are good.

 

Therefore, fewer updates are bad. Yet you are saying that fewer updates are not bad. Do you enjoy updates or not? If you enjoy them, lesser enjoyment due to fewer updates is a "bad" thing; if you don't enjoy them, greater enjoyment due to fewer updates is a "good" thing. It's really quite simple; I don't see why your not seeing what I'm trying to say.

 

I think he's saying he wishes that Jagex would operate like the makers of EVE Online; they make HUGE patches but update only about once every two three months.

 

 

 

edit: also, comp, I notice you have a habit of linking sources on several arguments/debates. Not that it's a bad thing, but where the hell do you pull them all from?! :shock: Granted the wiki articles are obvious but things like the profit graphs surely aren't google-able and easy to read for the mass public of the internet? (Or perhaps my history teacher was right and I'm excessively naive :wall: )

[compfreak847]

You're showing me here that you can completely miss the point in a way that I thought impossible for human beings to accomplish.

 

 

 

Updates are good.

 

 

 

The game in its current state is good.

 

 

 

Do you see a problem with those two statements?

 

It's not that I have a problem with it, it's that those two statements have nothing to do with each other and the second has nothing to do with your point.

 

 

 

Here, let me give you an example. I have 50$ (the game). That's good. Every now and then I get an additional 5$ (the updates). I think that's good. Therefore, anything that increases the frequency of those 5$ payments is good, and anything that decreases them is bad. That good or bad has nothing whatsoever to do with the 50$; I could have 5,000,000 or $.02, and it wouldn't affect it.

 

 

 

Therefore, if you think updates are good them more = better. How good the game currently is has nothing to do with it.

 

 

 

 

I think he's saying he wishes that Jagex would operate like the makers of EVE Online; they make HUGE patches but update only about once every two three months.

 

I'm talking about physical man hours put into updates, not number or quality. If the frequency of updates increases it is assumed that there are proportionately more of every kind of update, good or bad; vice versa for the frequency being decreased.

 

 

 

 

edit: also, comp, I notice you have a habit of linking sources on several arguments/debates. Not that it's a bad thing, but where the hell do you pull them all from?! :shock: Granted the wiki articles are obvious but things like the profit graphs surely aren't google-able and easy to read for the mass public of the internet? (Or perhaps my history teacher was right and I'm excessively naive :wall: )

 

Sadly, those are from an older thread located at viewtopic.php?f=30&t=776192&p=6318456&hilit=+financial+reports#p6318456

 

I only wish I had assembled them myself. That being said, I usually use respected website to look for sources (Jagex.com has some great links, and anything related to UK businesses generally has good stuff.

[yanksrule]

not trying to bash you down comp or anything but i'm still having trouble understanding how jagex will lose money from opening up forums. my comment that i said *3-4 posts ago?*, could you please tell me why there will be a decrease in updates? i've seen all the links you've posted *obviously with the link correction* except for the algebra one.... it was kinda silly. how could the forums being open to every one be a lack of updates? was that also the case for them when f2p got fist of guthix?

 

 

 

updates would be unnaffected i come too see it.

[compfreak847]

 

not trying to bash you down comp or anything but i'm still having trouble understanding how jagex will lose money from opening up forums. my comment that i said *3-4 posts ago?*, could you please tell me why there will be a decrease in updates? i've seen all the links you've posted *obviously with the link correction* except for the algebra one.... it was kinda silly. how could the forums being open to every one be a lack of updates? was that also the case for them when f2p got fist of guthix?

 

 

 

updates would be unnaffected i come too see it.

 

Forums for FTP = Servers and Jagex Mods for FTP = More money for FTP = Less money for PTP = Fewer updates for PTP