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Mining Sucks (round 2)


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#41
Makoto_the_Phoenix
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I think that you need some challenging skills in the game. I mean I know mining's boring but getting to say 70 mining feels more rewarding than 70 cooking. If every skill was easy the game would be boring, everyone would be good at everything and people would give up. It's nice to have a few more difficult skills in the game.




There's a difference between 'challenging' and 'pointless'. Runecrafting is challenging; quite literally the slowest skill in the game to train, with optimal experience gains per day coming between 60K and 435K [RScript Tracker backs me up on this], and the runes you make are actually useful. Mining is pointless, since chances are, you're not using it to its fullest potential, and mining Mithril/Adamant for Smithing or to sell on the market is typically out of the question. Heck, if players sold off all of the Iron they powermined, then there wouldn't be all this talk about 'inflation'...


The difference between challenging and pointless is your own opinion which depends on how you play the game.


You totally missed my point.



Mining is pointless since you do not use any of the intermediate ores (Mithril or Adamant), you do not mine them in bulk, and the only level worth getting is 85, so you can compete with other Rune miners and Revenants.



RuneCrafting is challenging because it's difficult to level, the Runes as a byproduct of training have an actual use, and players aren't shy about making Bloods or Deaths.



Do you see where I'm going with this now? It's not about how I play. It's about the point of the skill to begin with, which was to be a feeder skill to Smithing. You're not mining Mithril or Adamant when you mine, are you? That's my argument.



I completely agree with the first two points, but as for the last, I don't see a problem with grinding. Whether you train for money, skill/quest requirements, or for just achieving a level goal it's really all the same. You can't put an absolute value on those. You might see the quest requirement as more important than the other things, but someone else might feel that achieving the level goal is the more important one.




I don't really see a problem with grinding either, but I contend that it's the only feasible way to train Mining. Most every other resource-gathering skill has elements of grinding to it, but leveling either Fishing or Woodcutting isn't always a grind - you can use Monkfish and Maples/Yews. All I want is an alternative to that.



The purpose of mining was to be able to smith stuff. Back in the days of old you could make a lot of money smithing but now you can't. And because people really only smith for either quest requirements, to mine runite, or get the cape (Which usually is one of the last resource skills to obtain), no one really seems to care about mining.



But Jagex has already noticed this problem. If you complete the Varrock Diaries, your special armor allows you to mine more than one ore (just 2? FAILURE) up to Adamantite. I'd actually do the skill if it had some major updates. All I see in F2P is macros, and all I see in P2P is powerminers (Macros as well).




If the effects of the armor were global, I would be complaining a lot less. But they only apply to Varrock's mines, which don't have much to offer for someone of my caliber.

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#42
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Think of it this way.



Mining is slow and boring, but with great rewards at the end.



Runecrafting, is slow and boring, and decent money, with great great rewards at the far far far end.



Skills like woodcutting are fast, or in this case easy but the rewards arent so great.



Fishing, somewhat like woodcutting, or in this case easy but the rewards arent so great.



Every skill has its advantages and disadvantages, why make mining just another woodcutting.
O.O

#43
Makoto_the_Phoenix
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Think of it this way.



Mining is slow and boring, but with great rewards at the end.



Runecrafting, is slow and boring, and decent money, with great great rewards at the far far far end.



Skills like woodcutting are fast, or in this case easy but the rewards arent so great.



Fishing, somewhat like woodcutting, or in this case easy but the rewards arent so great.



Every skill has its advantages and disadvantages, why make mining just another woodcutting.




1) The only "reward" you get is to mine Runite, which pretty much leaves every other ore out of the loop.

2) The rewards of Runecrafting are practically apparent when you start - every rune you make actually has a use.

3) Woodcutting has rewards sufficient to fulfill its role as a feeder skill (Firemaking and Fletching), so it's just fine.

4) Fishing has rewards sufficient to fulfill its role as a feeder skill (Cooking), so it's just fine.

5) The point of a gathering skill is to gather. We're not gathering Mithril or Adamant, and to do so would mean you go out of your way. Do you not see that?

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#44
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So, mithril and adamants good money, its often mined alongside coal, as it should be.



Mine addy, mine mith, then mine coal till it respawns.



Decent money. Thats the REWARD.



When compared to woodcutting or something, the rewards are great, sure runite may be the best "only" reward, but by that logic i can claim magic trees as the "only" reward for woodcutting, or sharks are the "only" reward for fishing. Or that the "only" reward for runecrafting is double nats.



You can still make money along the way to 85 mining, its just far better AT 85 mining.
O.O

#45
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So, mithril and adamants good money, its often mined alongside coal, as it should be.



Mine addy, mine mith, then mine coal till it respawns.



Decent money. Thats the REWARD.



When compared to woodcutting or something, the rewards are great, sure runite may be the best "only" reward, but by that logic i can claim magic trees as the "only" reward for woodcutting, or sharks are the "only" reward for fishing. Or that the "only" reward for runecrafting is double nats.



You can still make money along the way to 85 mining, its just far better AT 85 mining.




Rune is FAR better than the rest; its just so much better that its not worth it wasting time mining other ores when you can just powermine more irons to get to lvl 85 mining faster.



Magic trees aren't the only reward for woodcutting, yew logs are good money too (at least for f2pers). Lobsters, swordfish, etc are all good rewards for fishing, aside from sharks. I don't know about runecrafting since my runecrafting level is 7... :?



its just far better AT 85 mining: There, you said it yourself.

#46
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Nevertheless,



Magic trees: 150k/hr

Yews: 120k/hr

Rune: 500k/hr



Changing mining according to these suggestions would make rune just another version of woodcutting, piss everyone off who already has high mining, and possibly reduce the profits from higher level ores.



Money is GOOD it is a GOOD money making skill, the thing that stops it from being overgood is that its slow and annoying to level to 85.
O.O

#47
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Nevertheless,



Magic trees: 150k/hr

Yews: 120k/hr

Rune: 500k/hr



Changing mining according to these suggestions would make rune just another version of woodcutting, piss everyone off who already has high mining, and possibly reduce the profits from higher level ores.



Money is GOOD it is a GOOD money making skill, the thing that stops it from being overgood is that its slow and annoying to level to 85.




I don't give a [bleep] about those high level miners.



Rune giving 500k/h is just absurd, compared to the pathetic amount of money earned by woodcutters.



This update will piss those high level miners off, but who cares. They've been having this advantage for too long. It'll make ore prices crash, but they'll definitely recover after a while. It'll also make rune not as profitable, like it is supposed to be. And also, you're mining ores much faster, so you can get more ores to sell than before. (though the lower prices will kinda balance it out)

#48
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So, high level miners should be penalized for there dedication.



Sure its a GREAT way to get money, its just really hard.



You need what, 100k iron to get 85 mining? Thats ALOT of mining, and they deserve the reward.



Whats next, nerf runecrafting? Dragons? Avansies? All bosses?
O.O

#49
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So, mithril and adamants good money, its often mined alongside coal, as it should be.



Mine addy, mine mith, then mine coal till it respawns.



Decent money. Thats the REWARD.



When compared to woodcutting or something, the rewards are great, sure runite may be the best "only" reward, but by that logic i can claim magic trees as the "only" reward for woodcutting, or sharks are the "only" reward for fishing. Or that the "only" reward for runecrafting is double nats.



You can still make money along the way to 85 mining, its just far better AT 85 mining.




Were you not paying attention to what I said?



I don't much care if Mining becomes profitable or not, all I want is for Mining to have its dignity again.




To begin with, money is NOT the scope of this rant. I really, really don't care if Mining becomes profitable/ceases to become profitable/becomes the new millionaire skill/whatever, all I want is for Mining to fulfill its purpose as the feeder skill to Smithing. It does not do that right now, no matter how you slice it. That's all I'm arguing - Mining does not fulfill its purpose as a feeder skill to Mining due to the inconvenience of mining Mithril or Adamant. I'm done trying to spell this out to you; reread the rant before you reply to this. Please.



When you define "rewards", sure, money is a factor, but the point of all gathering skills is to supply goods to a processing skill. Mining is the gathering skill for both Smithing and Crafting. Woodcutting has Firemaking and Fletching, and Fishing has Cooking. I'm still contending that Mining does not go all the way to supply resources in the literal middle of the skill (Mith/Addy) for Smithing.



Let me put it to you like this.



You can harpoon Shark, net Monkfish, and go to the Trawler for Mantas/Turtles. Each fish caters to a specific, mid to high level of Cooking skill required.

- Fishing has satisfied its role as a feeder skill.



You can cut trees up to Magic, and either burn them or fletch them. This occurs at every iteration of Firemaking and Fletching.

- Woodcutting has satisfied its role as a feeder skill.



You can not mine Mithril or Adamant in quantities similar enough to any feeder skill, nor can you acquire them in nearly as much time as Woodcutting - it would take you twice or three times as long to gather 28 Adamant ore in contrast to 28 Magic logs.

- Mining has NOT satisfied its role as a feeder skill.



Honestly. Last time I'm spelling this out for you. Read the rant for comprehension this time.



So, high level miners should be penalized for there dedication.



Sure its a GREAT way to get money, its just really hard.



You need what, 100k iron to get 85 mining? Thats ALOT of mining, and they deserve the reward.



Whats next, nerf runecrafting? Dragons? Avansies? All bosses?




I also fail to see how high level miners would get penalized for these suggestions. If anything, they'd be the ones to prosper the most from these. Spell this one out, since you don't seem to know what you're talking about here.



Oh, just did the math - If you started mining nothing but Iron from level 15, you would need to mine roughly 372,344 ores. There's no penalty in starting at that level; it isn't like the resource is gathered any slower, either.

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#50
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The point is, the profit could potentially go DOWN if these suggestions happened.



Also, higher level miners would be stuffed up. For example, if you got 85 mining, and then suddenly it was made easier, wouldn't you get pissed off? Money IS a factor, i don't know what you mean by dignity, but it can make good money, making mining easier would make it another skill like woodcutting, with like a zillion people at 85, and having rune prices drop like a rock.
O.O

#51
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... i don't know what you mean by dignity,...


:wall:



Thank you for proving that you missed the entire point of my rant. I told myself I wouldn't spell this out to you, but since I'm in a decent mood, we'll do this one last time.



Mining, like Woodcutting and Fishing, is nothing more than a harvesting skill. The point, the raison d'etre for a harvesting skill is to provide a resource to another skill to process. In these instances, we have logs going to Firemaking and/or Fletching, and fish going to Cooking. Ore from Mining is supposed to go to Smithing, but my complaint is that Mithril and Adamant ore are so scarce and hard to get, that there's no point to it. I'm also contending that the skill is the only harvesting skill that is a mandatory grind to level. To solve this, I argue that more ore should come from rocks, that intermediate ores be moved to more convenient locations, and once those two "updates" happen, the third problem of "being a grind" can disappear, since getting the ores would actually be beneficial to both the economy and Smithing once again.



I'm not kidding this time. Go back, read the rant, then make a decent counter-argument. If you can't make the effort to do that, don't waste my time.

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#52
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And all your suggestions would screw up mining.



It would be easier to level, less profit, and the prices of all armor will fall.



Your trying to make it just another version of woodcutting, and its not going to be that.



Mithril and adamant ARE Worth mining, but only alongside coal and other ores, which considering the amount of coal each bar uses, makes perfect sense.
O.O

#53
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And all your suggestions would screw up mining.



It would be easier to level, less profit, and the prices of all armor will fall.



Your trying to make it just another version of woodcutting, and its not going to be that.



Mithril and adamant ARE Worth mining, but only alongside coal and other ores, which considering the amount of coal each bar uses, makes perfect sense.




You sir are a fool, you missed the entire point of the post, the idea was not to make the skill EASIER to train, it was to make it more CONVENTIONAL. Right now it is a pain in the trying to collect resources for your higher level smithing endeavors, so all this wonderful man is suggesting is making collecting these resources a little more convenient (such as having rocks with more than one ore, or having rocks placed a reasonable distance from a bank). These would IN NO WAY ruin mining, the skill would not become easier to train, have you tried mining mith and addy? they aren't exactly one hit rocks. YES the xp/h would increase when mining the ores, BUT it would still not compare to that of powermining granite, iron, or even coal.



As for the rune rocks, this change is designed to keep Rune rocks basically the same, but make mining MITH AND ADDY easier, the focus was NEVER to make mining rune any easier, EVER, it was focused at the intermediate ores. Yes the prices for those ores would decrease slightly, but it would eventually stabilize, like everything in the RS economy does, and all will be well.



All I have for now =\



( Oh and hi there Tip.It :3 )
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#54
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Yes if you can get multiple ore per rock it will be easier, thats the side effect.



Which, in turn would make mining more popular, because its easy to train, and make armor and ore prices in general drop.
O.O

#55
LilCowmoo
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It wouldn't be easier per-se, yes it would be easier to GET TO THE ORES, but it would be no easier to actually MINE them.



I would also like you to explain this to me:



Do you think mining as a skill would become easier to train? if so, how? How would making some MITH AND ADDY ores closer to banks, or giving them more ores per rock make mining AS A SKILL easier?
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#56
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Allright, il give you a little example.



Basically the best bows in the game, magic bows, cost around 1k right?



The logs cost 1k.



And the strings cost like 150.



The reason its so cheap is because woodcutting is generally easy to get up, and theres multiple logs per tree and loads of people cutting them, so its easy to get. Don't make mining like that, thus making rune prices stupidly cheap.
O.O

#57
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Mining sucks for money. Iron is inefficient for money, so is adamant.



Iron ore is brought in by F2Pers, coal by MTK, mithril is ehh.



Then adamant bars are brought in by the masses through Aviansies.



Rune is actually being botted in the Hero's Guild, and isn't decent money.



---



So, it doesn't leave it out of the loop, it's just highly inefficient.



I remember pre-MTK when everyone dreamed of 60 mining to access the guild, so they could earn oodles of money, MTK ruined that, but made smithing easier/cheaper.



Then there is the Stealing Creation thing, it creates less of a demand for bars and subsequently ores, even further denting the market.

#58
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Rune is good money, i know plenty of people with 85+ mining and they all think its great money.



Gold mining makes about 50k an hour, sure its inefficient for money, but no skill can be great money the whole way, sucks at the start, good reward at the end as i see it.
O.O

#59
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Rune Mining is not good money, most people with high mining usually have lower money making skills so rune mining is their only option. 44 Rc is better money than Rune mining, and don't get me started on this 26Kbs.

#60
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WILL YOU PEOPLE SHUT UP ABOUT ORE PRICES DROPPING OR WHATEVER?



Please. Read the rant. People like I and the OP don't give a [bleep] about high leveled players or "ore prices dropping". The point is mining DOES not fulfill its role as a feeder skill for smithing. So cut the crap. If a skill/industry does not fulfill its fundamental role properly, it shouldn't be there in the first place. Mining is for smithing. Ore prices ARE WRONG.



Smithing is incredibly difficult to get up to high levels BECAUSE of mining. Mining mithril/adamant is just TOO slow. All the spots are rare and usually far from banks, if not crowded with people competing for a single rock that provides a stupidly low number of ores. And if I'm not wrong, coal (definitely the most important ore for smiths) takes LONGER to respawn than willow trees (which require the same level in woodcutting) AND only give ONE FREAKING ORE PER ROCK...




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