Capital punishment right or wrong?

[Me_Hate_Libs]

apparently hanging is supposed to be one of the best ways of dying as you die instantly wheras lethal injection is actully really bad.

 

 

 

lethal injection has three chemicals:

 

what happens is, one paralyzes you so you can't call out for help, you can't scream.

 

one blocks your breathing so you can't breath and you feel like your drowning but almost like bieng tied to a chair and drowning.

 

the other one gives a chemical which stops your heart, this is much later if you survive the death by suffocation.

 

 

 

Hey, I live in Florida. We used to put people in a chair and shoot electricity through their skulls. Then we stopped because a few people started having their organs blowing up and/or liquifying during it. And there was that one guy who started bleeding from his eyes, mouth, nose, and ears while people watched.

 

 

 

After that, we started with the syringes. :|

[depresins]

beep, wrong, back to med school kidlet.

 

 

 

Sodium pentothal (as its marketed) in the concentrations used in lethal injections results in a loss of conciousness in less than 10 seconds.

[Bloodstain]

 

I think it's a far stretch to say criminals don't care about their own self-interest.

 

...

 

 

 

Of course they don't. But they are aware of the possibility, and if they aren't then maybe I'm just giving these people too much credit. :lol: I don't see how people could not care about their own self-interest.

 

 

 

 

It's not that they don't care about self-interest, when they commit crimes they don't want to think "I'm going to get caught and execute", they want to think "I've covered my tracks, no one can trace it to me, I'm in the clear". Or when it's in the heat of passion and there is no thinking.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not believing your statistics because I want people to die or anything - I don't believe them because it makes absolutely no sense and that it's more logical to assume there is something fishy about the statistics. Sorry, but I choose logic over statistics. Correlation doesn't imply causation, people can manipulate statistics, bla bla bla.

 

 

 

 

You kind of just proved what I was using the statistics for. If capital punishment is a deterrent, then the murder rate should be lower for the majority of capital punishment states than those without it. This is not the case. Therefore capital punishment as a deterent doesn't hold much water. And lol "choosing logic" does not mean ignoring evidence because someone might have manipulated it. I can say that about ANY study EVER. (especially since the stats I listed are just doing simple math)

[mmmcannibalism]

As long as we properly deal with people that are too dangerous to society(I'm thinking severe sex offendors and killers here) I don't really care if they are in a cell or dead for the next forty years. That being said, I have no problem with the death penalty as long as it is carried out in a reasonably humane way(such as firing squad or injection since they are quick and near painless.)

 

 

 

On the humanity; we don't execute people for shoplifting, so I don't have a problem with any method that is quick and minimalistically painless. Seriously, if we could kill someone instantaneously with telekinesis we would still have people complaining it was a cruel method.

[Bloodstain]

As long as we properly deal with people that are too dangerous to society(I'm thinking severe sex offendors and killers here) I don't really care if they are in a cell or dead for the next forty years. That being said, I have no problem with the death penalty as long as it is carried out in a reasonably humane way(such as firing squad or injection since they are quick and near painless.)

 

 

 

On the humanity; we don't execute people for shoplifting, so I don't have a problem with any method that is quick and minimalistically painless. Seriously, if we could kill someone instantaneously with telekinesis we would still have people complaining it was a cruel method.

 

 

 

So what do you do after you execute someone and new evidence comes up that proves you did not do it? You just took an innocent life and ruined the lives of his/her family

[Lateralus]

As long as we properly deal with people that are too dangerous to society(I'm thinking severe sex offendors and killers here) I don't really care if they are in a cell or dead for the next forty years. That being said, I have no problem with the death penalty as long as it is carried out in a reasonably humane way(such as firing squad or injection since they are quick and near painless.)

 

 

 

On the humanity; we don't execute people for shoplifting, so I don't have a problem with any method that is quick and minimalistically painless. Seriously, if we could kill someone instantaneously with telekinesis we would still have people complaining it was a cruel method.

 

 

 

The humaneness of the method does very little to console me. I don't think there's any way you can morally justify killing another person, and no economic argument can defeat the moral case against executing prisoners either.

[mmmcannibalism]

As long as we properly deal with people that are too dangerous to society(I'm thinking severe sex offendors and killers here) I don't really care if they are in a cell or dead for the next forty years. That being said, I have no problem with the death penalty as long as it is carried out in a reasonably humane way(such as firing squad or injection since they are quick and near painless.)

 

 

 

On the humanity; we don't execute people for shoplifting, so I don't have a problem with any method that is quick and minimalistically painless. Seriously, if we could kill someone instantaneously with telekinesis we would still have people complaining it was a cruel method.

 

 

 

So what do you do after you execute someone and new evidence comes up that proves you did not do it? You just took an innocent life and ruined the lives of his/her family

 

 

 

A valid point; however, in the modern court system we give out so many appeals that this isn't happening anymore(I mean people aren't being convicted so don't pull up a stat about a guy who was released yesterday after 20 years).

 

 

 

The humaneness of the method does very little to console me. I don't think there's any way you can morally justify killing another person, and no economic argument can defeat the moral case against executing prisoners either.

 

 

 

I don't consider imprisoning someone for the rest of their life and humanely executing them different. To be honest, I think life imprisonment is just execution by old age.

 

 

 

I haven't looked up economic stuff recently, I think it has actually become cheaper to just drop the death penalty to avoid more appeal trials.(can anyone confirm?).

 

 

 

As I said earlier, I am more concerned with protecting people from those who are too dangerous to be released. I don't support the death penalty exactly; but I think every state/country shoudl be allowed to use it.

[Omar]

^I'm never sure with hextriplet.

 

Would you rather skydive and have a 1% chance of dying or would you rather skateboard and have a 10% chance of scraping your elbow?

 

 

People are scared of skydiving because it looks extremely intense (I haven't tried it, I can't vouch).

[depresins]

^I'm never sure with hextriplet.

 

Would you rather skydive and have a 1% chance of dying or would you rather skateboard and have a 10% chance of scraping your elbow?

 

 

People are scared of skydiving because it looks extremely intense (I haven't tried it, I can't vouch).

 

 

 

It's not as fun as you would think. I thought it was kinda boring. The first 5 seconds you are like yeah sweet as, after that you just wanted a beer and a warm place to crap.

[Bloodstain]

 

 

 

 

 

Not even Russia has the death penalty. Only developed nations I see on there that do are Japan, Singapore, and USA

 

 

 

 

A valid point; however, in the modern court system we give out so many appeals that this isn't happening anymore(I mean people aren't being convicted so don't pull up a stat about a guy who was released yesterday after 20 years).

 

 

 

Care to explain this a different way? I have no idea what you are trying to say.

 

 

 

Also RE one of your comments, prison isn't supposed to be about warehousing criminals, it's supposed to focus on rehabilitation (where America fails hard) and yes, punish them so they know not to do it, not vengeance

 

 

 

 

Since 1990, nine countries have executed offenders who were juveniles at the time of their crimes: The People's Republic of China (PRC), Democratic Republic of the Congo, Iran, Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, the United States and Yemen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Academic studies indicate that the single greatest predictor of whether a death sentence is given, however, is not the race of the defendant, but the race of the victim. According to a 2003 Amnesty International report, blacks and whites were the victims of murder in almost equal numbers, yet 80% of the people executed since 1977 were convicted of murders involving white victims.

 

In October 2000, a study found that distribution of death sentences is biased against whites in Southerns states, were most of the executions takes places.

 

 

 

 

Death row inmates who have been exonerated.

 

1973

 

 

 

* 1. David Keaton Florida (Keaton v. State, 273 So.2d 385 (1973)). Convicted 1971.

 

 

 

1974

 

 

 

* 2. Samuel A. Poole North Carolina (State v. Poole, 203 S.E.2d 786 (N.C. 1974)). Convicted 1973.

 

 

 

1975

 

 

 

* 3. Wilbert Lee Florida (Pitts v. State 247 So.2d 53 (Fla. 1971), overturned and released by pardon in 1975). Convicted 1963.

 

* 4. Freddie Pitts Florida (Pitts v. State 247 So.2d 53 (Fla. 1971), overturned and released by pardon in 1975). Convicted 1965.

 

* 5. James Creamer Georgia (Emmett v. Ricketts, 397 F. Supp 1025 (N.D. Ga. 1975)). Convicted 1973.

 

* 6. Christopher Spicer North Carolina (State v. Spicer, 204 SE 2d 641 (1974)). Convicted 1973.

 

 

 

1976

 

 

 

* 7. Thomas Gladish New Mexico. Convicted 1974.

 

* 8. Richard Greer New Mexico. Convicted 1974.

 

* 9. Ronald Keine New Mexico. Convicted 1974.

 

* 10. Clarence Smith New Mexico. Convicted 1974.

 

 

 

1977

 

 

 

* 11. Delbert Tibbs Florida. Convicted 1974.

 

 

 

1978

 

 

 

* 12. Earl Charles Georgia. Convicted 1975.

 

* 13. Jonathan Treadway Arizona. Convicted 1975.

 

 

 

1979

 

 

 

* 14. Gary Beeman Ohio. Convicted 1976.

 

 

 

[edit] 1980-1989

 

 

 

1980

 

 

 

* 15. Jerry Banks

 

* 16. Larry Hicks

 

 

 

1981

 

 

 

* 17. Charles Ray Giddens

 

* 18. Michael Linder

 

* 19. Johnny Ross

 

* 20. Ernest (Shuhaa) Graham

 

 

 

1982

 

 

 

* 21. Annibal Jaramillo

 

* 22. Lawyer Johnson Massachusetts (Commonwealth v. Johnson, 429 N.E.2d 726 (1982)). Convicted 1971.

 

 

 

1985

 

 

 

* 23. Larry Fisher

 

 

 

1986

 

 

 

* 24. Anthony Brown (currently serving 33 years on other charges)

 

* 25. Neil Ferber

 

* 26. Clifford Henry Bowen

 

 

 

1987

 

 

 

* 27. Joseph Green Brown

 

* 28. Perry Cobb

 

* 29. Darby (Williams) Tillis

 

* 30. Vernon McManus

 

* 31. Anthony Ray Peek (Currently serving a life sentence for Sexual Battery(rape))

 

* 32. Juan Ramos

 

* 33. Robert Wallace

 

 

 

1988

 

 

 

* 34. Richard Neal Jones

 

* 35. Willie Brown (currently serving life for crimes including bank robbery and battery)

 

* 36. Larry Troy

 

 

 

1989

 

 

 

* 37. Randall Dale Adams Texas (Ex Parte Adams, 768 S.W.2d 281 (Tex. Crim App. 1989). Convicted 1977.[2][3]

 

* 38. Robert Cox (currently serving a life sentence for armed robbery as a repeat offender after serving an 18 year sentence for kidnapping and assault with a deadly weapon)

 

* 39. Timothy Hennis (In 2006, the US Military filed capital charges for the same crime after previously unavailable DNA evidence became available. Because he was on death row under state law, there is no double jeopardy.)

 

* 40. James Richardson

 

 

 

[edit] 1990-1999

 

 

 

1990

 

 

 

* 41. Clarence Brandley Texas (Ex Parte Brandley, 781 S.W.2d 886 (Tex. Crim App. 1989). Convicted 1981.

 

* 42. John C. Skelton

 

* 43. Dale Johnston

 

* 44. Jimmy Lee Mathers

 

 

 

1991

 

 

 

* 45. Gary Nelson

 

* 46. Bradley P. Scott

 

* 47. Charles Smith

 

 

 

1992

 

 

 

* 48. Jay C. Smith Pennsylvania. Convicted 1986.

 

 

 

1993

 

 

 

* 49. Kirk Bloodsworth Maryland. Convicted 1984. Exonerated 1993; first prisoner to be exonerated by DNA evidence. Serving life in prison when exonerated, as earlier death sentence was overturned.

 

* 50. Federico M. Macias

 

* 51. Walter McMillan

 

* 52. Gregory R. Wilhoit

 

* 53. James Robison (later pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit murder, his target was a witness against him in his murder trial.)

 

* 54. Muneer Deeb

 

 

 

1994

 

 

 

* 55. Andrew Golden (currently serving a sentence for child molestation)

 

 

 

1995

 

 

 

* 56. Adolph Munson

 

* 57. Robert Charles Cruz

 

* 58. Rolando Cruz

 

* 59. Alejandro Hernandez

 

* 60. Sabrina Butler

 

 

 

1996

 

 

 

* 61. Joseph Burrows

 

* 62. Verneal Jimerson

 

* 63. Dennis Williams

 

* 64. Roberto Miranda

 

* 65. Gary Gauger

 

* 66. Troy Lee Jones

 

* 67. Carl Lawson

 

* 68. David Wayne Grannis

 

 

 

1997

 

 

 

* 69. Ricardo Aldape Guerra

 

* 70. Benjamin Harris

 

* 71. Robert Hayes (In 2004 Robert Hayes plead guilty to manslaughter and arson in a 1987 rape and murder in New York. He is now serving 15 to 45 years. [4])

 

* 72. Christopher McCrimmon

 

* 73. Randall Padgett

 

* 74. James Bo Cochran

 

 

 

1998

 

 

 

* 75. Robert Lee Miller, Jr.

 

* 76. Curtis Kyles

 

 

 

1999

 

 

 

* 77. Shareef Cousin Louisiana (Louisiana v. Cousin, 710 So. 2d 1065 (1998)). Convicted 1996. Served and was paroled from a 20 year sentence for a series of armed robberies. Currently incarcerated for grand theft and identity theft.

 

* 78. Anthony Porter Illinois. Convicted 1983.

 

* 79. Steven Smith

 

* 80. Ronald Williamson Oklahoma. Convicted 1988. Williamson later became the inspiration for and subject of John Grisham's 2006 non-fiction book The Innocent Man: Murder and Injustice in a Small Town. [5]

 

* 81. Ronald Jones

 

* 82. Clarence Dexter, Jr.

 

* 83. Warren Douglas Manning

 

* 84. Alfred Rivera

 

 

 

[edit] 2000-2009

 

 

 

2000

 

 

 

* 85. Steve Manning

 

* 86. Eric Clemmons

 

* 87. Joseph Nahume Green

 

* 88. Earl Washington Virginia (pardoned). Convicted 1994 (1984, without life sentence). After pardon served consecutive 15 year sentences for attempted rape, burglary and malicious wounding in unrelated case.

 

* 89. William Nieves

 

* 90. Frank Lee Smith (died prior to exoneration)

 

* 91. Michael Graham

 

* 92. Albert Burrell

 

* 93. Oscar Lee Morris

 

 

 

2001

 

 

 

* 94. Peter Limone

 

* 95. Gary Drinkard

 

* 96. Joachin Jose Martinez

 

* 97. Jeremy Sheets

 

* 98. Charles Fain

 

 

 

2002

 

 

 

* 99. Juan Roberto Melendez-Colon Florida. Convicted 1984.

 

* 100. Ray Krone Arizona (State v. Krone, 897 P.2d 621 (Ariz. 1995) (en banc)). Convicted 1992.

 

* 101. Thomas Kimbell, Jr.

 

* 102. Larry Osborne

 

 

 

2003

 

 

 

* 103. Aaron Patterson (Now serving unrelated 30 year sentence in federal prison for firearms violations and drug trafficking.)

 

* 104. Madison Hobley

 

* 105. Leroy Orange

 

* 106. Stanley Howard (Now serving 50 years for unrelated kidnapping and rape of two women and the rape of an elderly woman in her home.)

 

* 107. Rudolph Holton

 

* 108. Lemuel Prion

 

* 109. Wesley Quick

 

* 110. John Thompson

 

* 112. Gary Lamar James

 

* 113. Joseph Amrine

 

* 114. Nicholas Yarris Pennsylvania (Pennsylvania v. Yarris, No 690-OF1982, Court of Common Pleas, Delaware County, September 3, 2003. Order vacating conviction). Convicted 1982.

 

 

 

Illinois moratorium

 

 

 

* On January 11, 2003, Governor George Ryan commuted the sentences of all 167 death row inmates in the state of Illinois following a legal moratorium.

 

 

 

See also

 

 

 

* State of Illinois (January 31, 2000). Governor Ryan Declares Moratorium On Executions, Will Appoint Commission To Review Capital Punishment System. Press Release.

 

* Armstrong, Ken and Parsons, Christi (January 22, 2000). Half of state's death-penalty cases reversed: A variety of errors found in 130 trials. Chicago Tribune, online.

 

 

 

2004

 

 

 

* 115. Alan Gell

 

* 116. Gordon Steidl

 

* 117. Laurence Adams

 

* 118. Dan L. Bright

 

* 119. Ryan Matthews

 

* 120. Ernest Ray Willis

 

 

 

2005

 

 

 

* 121. Derrick Jamison

 

* 122. Harold Wilson

 

 

 

2006

 

 

 

* 123. John Ballard

 

 

 

2007

 

 

 

* 124. Curtis McCarty

 

* 125. Michael McCormick

 

* 126. Jonathon Hoffman

 

 

 

2008

 

 

 

* 127. Kennedy Brewer Mississippi. Convicted 1995.

 

* 128. Glen Edward Chapman North Carolina. Convicted 1995.

 

* 129. Levon "Bo" Jones [6] North Carolina. Convicted 1993.

 

* 130. Michael Blair Texas. Currently in prison for the sexual assault of three young girls.

 

 

 

2009

 

 

 

* 131. Nathson Fields Illinois. Convicted 1986.

 

* 132. Paul House Tennessee. Convicted 1986.

 

* 133. Daniel Wade Moore Alabama. Convicted 2002.

 

* 134. Ronald Kitchen Illinois. Convicted 1988.

 

* 135. Herman Lindsey Florida. Convicted 2006

 

 

 

 

 

 

135 people. Woop woop

 

 

 

 

 

Death penalty assumes absolute guilt without any chance of an innocent being executed, and a fair and ballanced judge and jury. The jury can have prejudices and make needlessly harsh decisions. The Judge may be a strict law-of-the-land type [wagon], or bat[cabbage] insane, or Believing that law is only decided by god.

 

 

 

*Judge DeWeese, Richland county

[Zierro]

You kind of just proved what I was using the statistics for. If capital punishment is a deterrent, then the murder rate should be lower for the majority of capital punishment states than those without it. This is not the case. Therefore capital punishment as a deterent doesn't hold much water. And lol "choosing logic" does not mean ignoring evidence because someone might have manipulated it. I can say that about ANY study EVER. (especially since the stats I listed are just doing simple math)

 

 

 

Might I suggest reading other people's posts before complaining about them not reading yours? Statistics aren't infallible. There is room for error, manipulation, and the fact that correlation doesn't imply causation which I'm getting sick of repeating. Logic on the other hand can be overridden with better logic. And as for the case with harsh penalties not being a deterrent, I have not seen one yet.

 

 

 

If you want to use some real statistics, prove to me that there isn't a single case out there where someone decided not to commit a crime because they feared the death penalty. I'll be waiting.

 

 

 

So what do you do after you execute someone and new evidence comes up that proves you did not do it? You just took an innocent life and ruined the lives of his/her family

 

 

 

The same thing people do when they release a criminal that goes around raping and murdering again. "[bleep], I gambled the wrong hand."

[Me_Hate_Libs]

Like Zierro said, statistics aren't facts. Subtle difference.

[1_man_army]

Like Zierro said, statistics aren't facts. Subtle difference.

 

 

 

No but they can give you a general picture. If people argue that the death penalty is a deterant, then generally it would be fair to summise that the death penalty states would have lower murder rates as potential murders are detered because of the death penalty. However, that argument has no basis in reality as overall, the states which do not have the death penalty have lower murder rates. That general trend shows that the deterant argument doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

 

 

 

There is room for error, manipulation, and the fact that correlation doesn't imply causation which I'm getting sick of repeating.And as for the case with harsh penalties not being a deterrent, I have not seen one yet.

 

 

 

 

Are you really arguing that the states where there is no death penalty have altered their stats to make an argument against capital punishment while the pro capital punishment have just been honest? Come on now be serious. You use this correlation/causation argument which would hold of we were just looking at one isolated death penalty state versus one isolated anti-death penalty state but it is clear that there is an overwhelming trend across the entire US that discredits your deterant argument. Your argument has no evidence to support it.

[Zierro]

Are you really arguing that the states where there is no death penalty have altered their stats to make an argument against capital punishment while the pro capital punishment have just been honest? Come on now be serious. You use this correlation/causation argument which would hold of we were just looking at one isolated death penalty state versus one isolated anti-death penalty state but it is clear that there is an overwhelming trend across the entire US that discredits your deterant argument. Your argument has no evidence to support it.

 

 

 

Are you really arguing that operant conditioning is a fraud?

 

 

 

It's an insult to science that you would even call that crap a "study". There's no way to know if a person would or would not do something depending on if things worked a little differently. But if thinking you can predict the future helps you sleep at night, by all means go for it, but don't belittle people with a little more sense than that.

 

 

 

If people argue that the death penalty is a deterant, then generally it would be fair to summise that the death penalty states would have lower murder rates as potential murders are detered because of the death penalty.

 

 

 

As stated many times, correlation =/= causation. There are numerous factors that can contribute to those statistics. Let me give you an example.

 

 

 

Let's say in State A there are 1000 crimes a year.

 

The next year, State A allows the death penalty.

 

The next year, State A has 1000 crimes.

 

Now, you can conveniently jump to the conclusion that the death penalty doesn't do anything, but this doesn't show us what would have happened if they didn't allow the death penalty. For all you know, the number of crimes could have been 1200 if they never allowed the death penalty - there could have been a [bleep]e in crime.

 

 

 

This is exactly why I hate when people use nothing but statistics for their argument. All it does is give you a general picture, not an absolute truth. There is plenty of room for your "facts" to be wrong.

[Me_Hate_Libs]

Prison isn't really even a deterrant, but sometimes you need a place to lock these people up. And some people are so out there and so screwed up that they're too dangerous for prison. So we kill them.

 

 

 

Plus it's cheaper in the long run.

[Zierro]

Prison is really even a deterrant, but sometimes you need a place to lock these people up. And some people are so out there and so screwed up that they're too dangerous for prison. So we kill them.

 

 

 

Plus it's cheaper in the long run.

 

 

 

Not only that, but sympathizing for someone who would cut your throat in a heartbeat and think nothing of it is just foolish... and dangerous.

[Me_Hate_Libs]

I'd brin g up the argument of "An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth." Which, by the way, doesn't mean revenge. It means equal treatment. If at all possible, you kill someone and are found guilty of murder, you die the same way they did.

[1_man_army]

 

 

 

As stated many times, correlation =/= causation. There are numerous factors that can contribute to those statistics. Let me give you an example.

 

 

 

 

Of course there are numerous factors and there would definately be skew because of mitigating factors if two isolated states were looked at (as I stated). However, there is still a clear trend in the overall picture and the reason you take a bigger survey (in this case using all the states) is to diminish the effect of mitigating factors.

 

 

 

On the issue of operant conditioning, I don't think it translates well when you apply it to murder. The fact that there are many murders that are crimes of passion or spur of the moment incidents suggests that in many cases there is no thought applied to the consequencess of many murders.

[Lateralus]

If you dislike statistics so much, what exactly are you basing your argument on, Zierro? I think a few pages back you said you were just going with the reasoning that "I don't want to get executed, so I won't kill anyone". In isolated cases, this is fine, but it seems foolish that you will blow entire studies out of the water on the back of an opinion (fallible though they may be). Of course correlation doesn't imply causation, but it can certainly give hints. But, as I'm sure has already been pointed out, studies that show that the death penalty is a deterrent are out there, and might even be as numerous as the arguments that it's not a deterrent. If the jury is still out on whether or not capital punishment actually works, I don't see what ground we have to stand on when we decide to execute someone.

[Me_Hate_Libs]

If you dislike statistics so much, what exactly are you basing your argument on, Zierro? I think a few pages back you said you were just going with the reasoning that "I don't want to get executed, so I won't kill anyone". In isolated cases, this is fine, but it seems foolish that you will blow entire studies out of the water on the back of an opinion (fallible though they may be). Of course correlation doesn't imply causation, but it can certainly give hints. But, as I'm sure has already been pointed out, studies that show that the death penalty is a deterrent are out there, and might even be as numerous as the arguments that it's not a deterrent. If the jury is still out on whether or not capital punishment actually works, I don't see what ground we have to stand on when we decide to execute someone.

 

 

 

I think Zierro just keeps in mind the underlying issues with statistics. One, they don't always reveal what they should and two, they can be skewed by someone to make something appear other than the way it actually is.

[Lateralus]

If you dislike statistics so much, what exactly are you basing your argument on, Zierro? I think a few pages back you said you were just going with the reasoning that "I don't want to get executed, so I won't kill anyone". In isolated cases, this is fine, but it seems foolish that you will blow entire studies out of the water on the back of an opinion (fallible though they may be). Of course correlation doesn't imply causation, but it can certainly give hints. But, as I'm sure has already been pointed out, studies that show that the death penalty is a deterrent are out there, and might even be as numerous as the arguments that it's not a deterrent. If the jury is still out on whether or not capital punishment actually works, I don't see what ground we have to stand on when we decide to execute someone.

 

 

 

I think Zierro just keeps in mind the underlying issues with statistics. One, they don't always reveal what they should and two, they can be skewed by someone to make something appear other than the way it actually is.

 

 

 

I don't doubt his intellectual honesty or scrutiny - I've debated with him enough to know that generally if he has a point he has a reason, I just don't think he's done anything to make it clear.

[Zierro]

The thing I dislike the most about statistics is that they barely allow room for arguing against. I think issues like this deserve more thought than trying to interpret some numbers and patterns. Not only do I believe it's more accurate, but to me it's also more fun. :)

[Bloodstain]

The thing I dislike the most about statistics is that they barely allow room for arguing against. I think issues like this deserve more thought than trying to interpret some numbers and patterns. Not only do I believe it's more accurate, but to me it's also more fun. :)

 

 

 

So you're telling me that you don't like stats (which are just murder rates, which are going to be very consistent no matter WHO conducts the study) because it is able to back people's statements up while the other side has none. On the study; I never implied causation, and it's kind of absurd that you drew that from what I posted. I'm saying that for people who are adamant that capital punishment is a deterrent, the stats show that this is false. I'm showing a lack of causation if anything for those who say it is a deterrent which would imply that CP states have lower murder rates, but they do not. (Even though the burden of proof is on people who say it is a deterrent's)

 

 

 

 

The same thing people do when they release a criminal that goes around raping and murdering again. "[bleep], I gambled the wrong hand."

 

 

 

 

So you're telling me that when you kill an innocent person you just go "oh [cabbage], my bad, guess I learned from this!"? There are over ONE HUNDRED known people that have been put on death row, INNOCENT people.

 

 

 

As for the eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth thing (libs): That isn't justice, that is revenge/retribution. That is not what the criminal justice system is supposed to do. Let's say a person gets drunk, leaves her friend's house and thinks she is ok to drive, gets in the car, and then hits someone and severs their spine/paralyzes them. You are telling me then that you would be fine with severing her (driver's) spine in the name of "justice"?

[Zierro]

So you're telling me that you don't like stats (which are just murder rates, which are going to be very consistent no matter WHO conducts the study) because it is able to back people's statements up while the other side has none.

 

 

 

When did I ever say I don't have arguments for my side? :?

 

 

 

There are your statistics, which make no logical sense. And then there is the argument and statistics that show the validity of operant conditioning - you are more likely to do things if they offer a good reward, and less likely to do things if they offer a harsh consequence - which makes a lot of logical sense.

 

 

 

So you're telling me that when you kill an innocent person you just go "oh [cabbage], my bad, guess I learned from this!"? There are over ONE HUNDRED known people that have been put on death row, INNOCENT people.

 

 

 

When did I ever say that either? You really need to stop with the strawmans.

 

 

 

My point is that neither system is perfect. Sometimes people will be released or escape and go around murdering again, which is very bad. And sometimes people will get the death penalty even though they were innocent, which is very bad too. Neither sounds any better than the other.

[magekillr]

I really tire of the argument that "statistics don't prove anything," or "you can use statistics to prove anything."

 

 

 

Actually, no, they do "prove" things, and no, you can't use them to "prove" anything you want. There's a difference between some polling survey, and the usage of raw data. Even then, polls are entirely legitimate if the method, questioning, and sample size are adequate. Can they be altered to misrepresent the final conclusion? Yes, they can, but that's the person interpreting them, not the method itself. Just look at global warming and how denialists take the data, misrepresent it and claim, "We're actually in a cooling phase right now."

 

 

 

Stop throwing statistics and data to the way side because you don't like where the evidence points towards. That's called being an ideological hack.

 

 

 

And about using "other" methods for execution (namely "rope")? That's without a doubt a violation of the United States Constitution. The death penalty is cruel and unusual in and of itself in my opinion, but there's no way you could justify the killing methods you're proposing.

 

 

 

I still can't believe that people would allow the state, willingly, to kill its own civilians. I'm supposedly a lover of "Big Government," too. It's odd that the libertarian here supports the DP.