Genesis and The Big Bang

[billybob323]

If you believe god created the laws governing the universe, then he has to have done it in a way where it looks as if he hasn't done anything

That's exactly what He did. He created everything in such a way that we can attempt to explain it using the reasoning power that He gave us. He did this because it allows us to choose Him. I agree that it's pointless to answer a scientific question by saying "God did it." But that doesn't mean the scientific method can't lead us to the conclusion that God did it.

You said it yourself that everything is created in such a way that god is not required, and that means he can be ruled out.

Whoa, I DEFINITELY did not say that. I said that God created the universe in such a way that we can attempt to explain it without Him. Please do not shove words into my mouth.

 

As for faith, I think you are defining it wrong. Faith is not a blind belief in something. Faith is actually just trust, and your faith is only as worthy as what you're putting that faith into. I like this metaphor that I found:

I love the metaphor of a chair... Find the chair closest to you. Look at it closely. Examine its design. Is it structurally sound? Is it sufficiently engineered? Will the materials chosen by the manufacturer support your weight?

 

Most likely, you picked a chair that you believe will support you. That's belief. You applied logic, knowledge and experience to make an informed intellectual decision.

 

Now sit in the chair... That's faith! At one point, intellectual assent only goes so far. True living requires that we put our beliefs into action. Intellectual belief without actionable faith is hollow and meaningless...

As for my faith, my faith is definitely not a "blind" faith. But it's not dependent on evidence either. Rather, it is supported by evidence with trust mixed in. And I disagree that science can not lead us to the conclusion that God did it. Eventually it can get to the point that a supernatural being is the only logical explanation left. Granted, supernatural beings aren't testable, but if it's the only logical explanation left, why do you need to test it?

 

I had a good, long chat with a friend of mine (we are both Christians, and he is studying to be a minister) a few days ago about faith and if it's possible to prove God with science. It got to the point where I asked him what's the difference between belief in something and faith in something. He just looked at me and, with all seriousness, said "Heaven and Hell." So, yes, faith is a very big virtue for me now.

[gorgoroth]

Alright, i just read through about 80% of the posts on this thread and i must admit that i am quite shocked by the lack of belief in the US and UK. What i can't understand is that you say there is no God yet you have no hesitation when it comes to the celebration of his birth. Sure, it has become a comercial money maker but deep down inside you still know what Christmas is all about and i can assure you that the 2 seconds you spend thinking about the true meaning of Christmas gives God, Jesus Christ, the biggest pleasure on earth because even though you believe with all your heart He does not exist you still, for a second think about Him. Then i noticed how alot of you slander religion with your big words. I'm not going to fight back because i believe that each and every person should have a right to believe in what they want(and partly because my words are small and weak compared to many of yours). I'm not here to force my beliefs on you. If i wanted to do that i would go to USA and become a president. i will however ask you to considder the others. While you are going around saying God in nothing, there is no God, science science science is the way to go keep in ind the following fact: God made heaven, earth, the sun and the mood, every creature, ever being, every living moment. He also made us. He gave us the ability to speak, talk, feel but most importantly he gave us the ability to THINK. And believing in the the Big Bang to me is like believing in Aliens (and we all know for a fact that thusfar there are none). Why, if the allmighty human can prove the fact that the earth and heaven and everything around us was created by some glitch in the fabric of space can we NOT prove, or disprove, the fact that there is another living life form. If man is so mighty to go against the word and beliefs of thousands of years of religios views by using simple science, why can't we cure the most common of colds? Science has often failed. The Big Bang theory is a great example.

[gorgoroth]

If you believe god created the laws governing the universe, then he has to have done it in a way where it looks as if he hasn't done anything

That's exactly what He did. He created everything in such a way that we can attempt to explain it using the reasoning power that He gave us. He did this because it allows us to choose Him. I agree that it's pointless to answer a scientific question by saying "God did it." But that doesn't mean the scientific method can't lead us to the conclusion that God did it.

You said it yourself that everything is created in such a way that god is not required, and that means he can be ruled out.

Whoa, I DEFINITELY did not say that. I said that God created the universe in such a way that we can attempt to explain it without Him. Please do not shove words into my mouth.

I like your reasoning Billy. Infact, i LOVE it. Thats exactly what it is. God gave us free will. He wanted us to do the right things in life. He wanted us to choose Him. CHOOSE. What kind of a life would it be if we were all programmed to love Him from the start? It would be one-toned and boring.

 

For those who believe in the Big Bang theory:

Oh i have an odd kind of question. If you beleive in your Big bang theory, when and why did we decide to cloth outselves?

[Saru Inc]

Dude there's no use arguing. Pearls before swine.

[gorgoroth]

There really is no arguement. A simple question which i see will be hard for any of you to answer disproving all and any of your theories.

[gorgoroth]

If you believe god created the laws governing the universe, then he has to have done it in a way where it looks as if he hasn't done anything

That's exactly what He did. He created everything in such a way that we can attempt to explain it using the reasoning power that He gave us. He did this because it allows us to choose Him. I agree that it's pointless to answer a scientific question by saying "God did it." But that doesn't mean the scientific method can't lead us to the conclusion that God did it.

You said it yourself that everything is created in such a way that god is not required, and that means he can be ruled out.

Whoa, I DEFINITELY did not say that. I said that God created the universe in such a way that we can attempt to explain it without Him. Please do not shove words into my mouth.

I like your reasoning Billy. Infact, i LOVE it. Thats exactly what it is. God gave us free will. He wanted us to do the right things in life. He wanted us to choose Him. CHOOSE. What kind of a life would it be if we were all programmed to love Him from the start? It would be one-toned and boring.

 

For those who believe in the Big Bang theory:

Oh i have an odd kind of question. If you beleive in your Big bang theory, when and why did we decide to cloth outselves?

Because we got cold? And gradually as wearing clothing became the norm, we began wearing clothes even when it wasn't cold. Then as people slowly became appalled at the sight of nudity, clothing just became something that everyone got used to.

 

Don't be an idiot. Everything happens for a reason.

So you are saying humans got appalled by the sight of their own nature and therefore decided to cover up? Nice theory.

[billybob323]

I like your reasoning Billy. Infact, i LOVE it. Thats exactly what it is. God gave us free will. He wanted us to do the right things in life. He wanted us to choose Him. CHOOSE. What kind of a life would it be if we were all programmed to love Him from the start? It would be one-toned and boring.

Thanks gorgoroth. I know that no one arguing against me here is doing so out of curiosity, but with the sole goal of proving me wrong and themself right. It just makes me feel better that at least one person got a good use out of what I'm saying.

 

So you are saying humans got appalled by the sight of their own nature and therefore decided to cover up? Nice theory.

A theory that is actually in the Bible. After eating the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve suddenly realized their nudity was shameful and tried to cover up.

[gorgoroth]

Look, i'm not going to become caught up in some arguement over something like this. You have your beliefs and i have mine. You have your science and i have my God. One day i will have my heaven and you will have your eternal damnation. And if, in the end, God turns out to be a sham then i will know that i ended up living my life to the fullest. I lived for something i believed in, for something that made sense to me. I had something worth living for, someone. I has someone to thank for the good, someone to go cry to about the bad. I had someone that could give me hope when i needed it and someone to bring me down to earth when i got a bit cocky. Reading my Bible was no burden on me so i don't feel i have wasted time there. if God turns out to be a fake atleast i got to read on of the best stories ever writen. Atleast i had faith :)

[gorgoroth]

I like your reasoning Billy. Infact, i LOVE it. Thats exactly what it is. God gave us free will. He wanted us to do the right things in life. He wanted us to choose Him. CHOOSE. What kind of a life would it be if we were all programmed to love Him from the start? It would be one-toned and boring.

Thanks gorgoroth. I know that no one arguing against me here is doing so out of curiosity, but with the sole goal of proving me wrong and themself right. It just makes me feel better that at least one person got a good use out of what I'm saying.

 

So you are saying humans got appalled by the sight of their own nature and therefore decided to cover up? Nice theory.

A theory that is actually in the Bible. After eating the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve suddenly realized their nudity was shameful and tried to cover up.

Yes the last fact i am aware of, obviously. But to be appalled by nudity for no reason just does not make sense to me at all. Atleast Adam and Eve had reason. Forbidden fruit gave them knowledge and with that came pride. Pride brought shame and that brought them to feel akward in their naked state. A very logical story.

[brunokiller]

Let's say if god does exist, would he care about how much time you spent praying to him and reading his fiction?

 

I'd be willing to bet he'd be more interested in how you treated everything and everyone around you.

 

 

Not that I beleive in god :smile: (church is sooooo boring)

[gorgoroth]

Look, i'm not going to become caught up in some arguement over something like this. You have your beliefs and i have mine. You have your science and i have my God. One day i will have my heaven and you will have your eternal damnation. And if, in the end, God turns out to be a sham then i will know that i ended up living my life to the fullest. I lived for something i believed in, for something that made sense to me. I had something worth living for, someone. I has someone to thank for the good, someone to go cry to about the bad. I had someone that could give me hope when i needed it and someone to bring me down to earth when i got a bit cocky. Reading my Bible was no burden on me so i don't feel i have wasted time there. if God turns out to be a fake atleast i got to read on of the best stories ever writen. Atleast i had faith :)

Allow me to take that post apart:

 

" You have your science and i have my God. "

You also have your stupidity and arrogance, believing that we only wear clothes because God said to. I'm usually okay with religious people, but thats just idiotic.

 

"You will have your eternal damnation"

If God is that much of a douchebag, to damn those who don't believe in him, I'd rather be away from him.

 

"i will know that i ended up living my life to the fullest"

Except on Sunday, amirite?

I wish you the best of luck :). You seem like a nice person. Someone who seeks attention by acting big over the internet, yet i think you could be a nice person. Your words will not upset me at the least. I will look at them with a giggle because like i said, you have your beliefs and i have mine :)

[brunokiller]

To act big over the internet, of course.

[Saru Inc]

Look, i'm not going to become caught up in some arguement over something like this. You have your beliefs and i have mine. You have your science and i have my God. One day i will have my heaven and you will have your eternal damnation. And if, in the end, God turns out to be a sham then i will know that i ended up living my life to the fullest. I lived for something i believed in, for something that made sense to me. I had something worth living for, someone. I has someone to thank for the good, someone to go cry to about the bad. I had someone that could give me hope when i needed it and someone to bring me down to earth when i got a bit cocky. Reading my Bible was no burden on me so i don't feel i have wasted time there. if God turns out to be a fake atleast i got to read on of the best stories ever writen. Atleast i had faith :)

Allow me to take that post apart:

 

" You have your science and i have my God. "

You also have your stupidity and arrogance, believing that we only wear clothes because God said to. I'm usually okay with religious people, but thats just idiotic.

 

"You will have your eternal damnation"

If God is that much of a douchebag, to damn those who don't believe in him, I'd rather be away from him.

 

"i will know that i ended up living my life to the fullest"

Except on Sunday, amirite?

 

 

Dude, you're still probably in 8th grade. Stop tryin to act all big and bad. When you're simply a depository of pseudo knowledge handed down through the generations of mindless babble on stupid news programs. Then, you spew them out in a diatribe masked as science against religion, calling Christians and the like bigots; when in all reality you're a bigot as well. A closet one at best. When I was your age was I try in argue about God? Yea. Did I do very well? No. And son, you're not doing any better. Insulting someone's usage of time in what to them is a very revere act simply shows your immaturity. Though I guess I'm immature as well for even posting on a Does God Exist topic. Because we all know, no one here will ever have their mind changed by what someone posts. So there's no point.

[Seraphi]

[hide=Quote]Alright, i'm not what you would call the biggest Christian anymore, but i used to be a very spiritual person therefor my view of this thread might be a bit scewed. But what i say will carry fact as well as some logic.

 

I've never really been too much into the Big Bang theory. To me the thought of being an evolved form on a monkey is an insult. The fact that a single cell, ONE CELL, created all of this around me, around us, seems pretty stupid. If you're going to tell me that 1 cell split into two, then kept on multiplying and some of the cells decided to grow into plants, some into animals then i would like to know how? How did they change from plants to animals. And then there is also the fact of male and female. If one cell split into 2 identical cells, then howcome we have 2 different genders today?

Then we get to the more religios part. Thining about it makes so much more sense, even if you are athiest, satanist, islamic, jewish, budist, or whatever. Knowing that there was some sort of creator is much more logic than knowing we are the result of a chemical concoction gone wrong. Then the Bible might not make sense all the time, but it has been around longer than any other (or most other) books, and i'm sure its been around since before the Big bang theory. And reading the Bible you start to see that alot of the things writin in it (predictions) have already come true so why can't the theory of creation be true aswell. [/hide]

The way i see it in the end is that the Big Bang (geez this reminds me of summer 2008. One hell of an part....) theory is the lazy man's way of getting out of a religion, or atleast some sort of belief.

That's funny, because I always tend to see religion as the lazy man's way of explaining the universe.

 

In all honesty, there is no point to this argument. Nobody ever actually manages to change somebody's opinion in this sort of thing, so we're really only doing it for the sole purpose of trying to prove them wrong, which to me seems like a waste of time.

[gorgoroth]

Look, i'm not going to become caught up in some arguement over something like this. You have your beliefs and i have mine. You have your science and i have my God. One day i will have my heaven and you will have your eternal damnation. And if, in the end, God turns out to be a sham then i will know that i ended up living my life to the fullest. I lived for something i believed in, for something that made sense to me. I had something worth living for, someone. I has someone to thank for the good, someone to go cry to about the bad. I had someone that could give me hope when i needed it and someone to bring me down to earth when i got a bit cocky. Reading my Bible was no burden on me so i don't feel i have wasted time there. if God turns out to be a fake atleast i got to read on of the best stories ever writen. Atleast i had faith :)

Allow me to take that post apart:

 

" You have your science and i have my God. "

You also have your stupidity and arrogance, believing that we only wear clothes because God said to. I'm usually okay with religious people, but thats just idiotic.

 

"You will have your eternal damnation"

If God is that much of a douchebag, to damn those who don't believe in him, I'd rather be away from him.

 

"i will know that i ended up living my life to the fullest"

Except on Sunday, amirite?

 

 

Dude, you're still probably in 8th grade. Stop tryin to act all big and bad. When you're simply a depository of pseudo knowledge handed down through the generations of mindless babble on stupid news programs. Then, you spew them out in a diatribe masked as science against religion, calling Christians and the like bigots; when in all reality you're a bigot as well. A closet one at best. When I was your age was I try in argue about God? Yea. Did I do very well? No. And son, you're not doing any better. Insulting someone's usage of time in what to them is a very revere act simply shows your immaturity. Though I guess I'm immature as well for even posting on a Does God Exist topic. Because we all know, no one here will ever have their mind changed by what someone posts. So there's no point.

 

@Rocco: I don't see my Sunday wasted because i choose to go to an event that betters my knowledge for something i have a passion for, i see it as time well spent. It's like going to a sports event. I find it entertaining. It makes me feel better about who i am and i learn how to be an even better me. For me its no waste of time. Also you must know that going to church does not make you a good Christian, living a good life is what makes you a good Christian. Oh, and this was surley never meant to be a debate, rather an enquiry.

 

@Bruno: Yes, God will judge you on how you lead your life but how you loved Him plays the greatest part. Its really hard for me to explain the concept i have in my mind mainly because my lack of english knowledge stops me. But yes you are right, praying and reading your Bible is not the only thing God wants. He wants you to love and respect those around you too. And no, i have no reason to act big on the internet. Like i said, my english will always be the factor thats stops me from doing so.

 

@Saru: i am not in the 8th grade although my english might tell you otherwise. Yes, this will be an endless battle because man kind is stubborn. We want our own way and we won't let anyone change that, so why even try? I have said it more than once now, i have my ways and you have yours. I respect you for doing what you believe in and i will not force you or try and force you to change. All i can do is pray for those who do not believe.

[Saru Inc]

Gorg I was talking about Rocco. The dude is a self righteous tool who thinks he knows everything. I'm not trying to troll; that's my honest opinion.

[gorgoroth]

Gorg I was talking about Rocco. The dude is a self righteous tool who thinks he knows everything. I'm not trying to troll; that's my honest opinion.

All very true but who am i to judge. I find it hard to believe that Rocco so feely bashes each and every religion although i am sure without a doubt in my mind that he knows very little of any of those he is nay-saying. But if he feels that making dumb comments and possibly making a fool of himself then i think it will be best if i withdraw myself from this thread. Afterall, the main part about Christianity is to always try and be the better person :)

[meol]

Meh. I just hate when people jump into conclusions and make broad generalizations. There are people that are changed by what they read in the forums. The fact you are so stubborn you just won't change your views doesn't mean nobody else will do it (and I'm not trying to direct this to any specific person). There are people out there who are actually interested in debating the existence of a god, and are legitimately curious about it

 

But two sides calling each other close-minded bigots and gloating on their self-righteousness isn't a debate.

[Saru Inc]

Meh. I just hate when people jump into conclusions and make broad generalizations. There are people that are changed by what they read in the forums. The fact you are so stubborn you just won't change your views doesn't mean nobody else will do it (and I'm not trying to direct this to any specific person). There are people out there who are actually interested in debating the existence of a god, and are legitimately curious about it

 

But two sides calling each other close-minded bigots and gloating on their self-righteousness isn't a debate.

 

 

I understand what you're saying, completely. Even if you're directing those comments at me :XD:

 

 

But from what I've seen on here, and SODB forums from the past, along with other non RS related sites are Atheists bashing Christians, and Christians bashing Atheists. (Bizarrely I've never really seen other religions discussed about.) And no one is willing to give any ground, is that stubborn? Or simply confident?

[Seraphi]

I may be speaking from personal opinion, but from what I've read, the people who actually intend to change their views in a forum debate are in the minority.

 

(Edit: I basically posted the same thing as Saru. Damn snipers.)

[gorgoroth]

Meh. I just hate when people jump into conclusions and make broad generalizations. There are people that are changed by what they read in the forums. The fact you are so stubborn you just won't change your views doesn't mean nobody else will do it (and I'm not trying to direct this to any specific person). There are people out there who are actually interested in debating the existence of a god, and are legitimately curious about it

 

But two sides calling each other close-minded bigots and gloating on their self-righteousness isn't a debate.

 

 

I understand what you're saying, completely. Even if you're directing those comments at me :XD:

 

 

But from what I've seen on here, and SODB forums from the past, along with other non RS related sites are Atheists bashing Christians, and Christians bashing Atheists. (Bizarrely I've never really seen other religions discussed about.) And no one is willing to give any ground, is that stubborn? Or simply confident?

Yeah few moments ago i was thinking the same thing. Christianity and Athiesm just doesnt seem to like each other. And also its not stubborn nor confident, its pride. Pride to face the fact that he/she/me/you is/are wrong.

[DaN]

Lat is right. Though I believe in God, you cannot scientifically prove him. That is a fact. DOES THAT MEANS HE DOESN'T EXIST is what we must now ask ourselves. Simply because Science cannot explain something... Does that automatically rule it out? Some would say yes; some would say no.

 

This is the Celestial Teapot Argument.

 

You cannot prove that there is not a teacup in orbit around Jupiter, however that does not mean that it is likely to exist.

 

 

Why can't the two coexist? Like I said, Georges Lemaitres was a devout Catholic before, during, and after he came up with the theory of the Big Bang. He was awarded by the Vatican for significant contribution to science.

 

He could have the two coexist, why can't others? I'm not saying one's wrong, I am not saying one's right. But why must you all carry on like they are mutually exclusive?

 

Because they are incompatible. We have Science which explains much of the natural world around us. Then we have the Bible which just an old book, seriously the fan club has gone to far.

[gorgoroth]

Dude, you're still probably in 8th grade.

You say this as if it matters.

 

Stop tryin to act all big and bad.

I see. And how would you reccomend going about this?

 

When you're simply a depository of pseudo knowledge handed down through the generations of mindless babble on stupid news programs.

Whoah man, like you said, I'm only in the 8th grade, you should probably dumb that down a bit.

 

Then, you spew them out in a diatribe masked as science against religion, calling Christians and the like bigots; when in all reality you're a bigot as well. A closet one at best.

When did I say that?

 

When I was your age was I try in argue about God? Yea. Did I do very well? No. And son, you're not doing any better.

Sorry.

 

Insulting someone's usage of time in what to them is a very revere act simply shows your immaturity.

I was making a point. He said he was living his life to the fullest. I pointed out that he spends several hours each week in a Church, when he could be curing cancer or something like that.

 

Though I guess I'm immature as well for even posting on a Does God Exist topic. Because we all know, no one here will ever have their mind changed by what someone posts. So there's no point.

Then leave?

I promised myself i would not do this, but i just can't stop myself. Haha Rocco you just totally proved Saruman right about the fact that you are immature. You're making a complete fool out of yourself :thumbup:

Jesus loves you bro!

[gorgoroth]

Dude, you're still probably in 8th grade.

You say this as if it matters.

 

Stop tryin to act all big and bad.

I see. And how would you reccomend going about this?

 

When you're simply a depository of pseudo knowledge handed down through the generations of mindless babble on stupid news programs.

Whoah man, like you said, I'm only in the 8th grade, you should probably dumb that down a bit.

 

Then, you spew them out in a diatribe masked as science against religion, calling Christians and the like bigots; when in all reality you're a bigot as well. A closet one at best.

When did I say that?

 

When I was your age was I try in argue about God? Yea. Did I do very well? No. And son, you're not doing any better.

Sorry.

 

Insulting someone's usage of time in what to them is a very revere act simply shows your immaturity.

I was making a point. He said he was living his life to the fullest. I pointed out that he spends several hours each week in a Church, when he could be curing cancer or something like that.

 

Though I guess I'm immature as well for even posting on a Does God Exist topic. Because we all know, no one here will ever have their mind changed by what someone posts. So there's no point.

Then leave?

I promised myself i would not do this, but i just can't stop myself. Haha Rocco you just totally proved Saruman right about the fact that you are immature. You're making a complete fool out of yourself :thumbup:

Jesus loves you bro!

I take pride in my immaturity. Allows me to dissassociate myself from the average TIFer.

Oh no, quite the oppisite. It makes you part of the majority. Just another sheep in the herd.

Baahh

[Saru Inc]

Lat is right. Though I believe in God, you cannot scientifically prove him. That is a fact. DOES THAT MEANS HE DOESN'T EXIST is what we must now ask ourselves. Simply because Science cannot explain something... Does that automatically rule it out? Some would say yes; some would say no.

 

This is the Celestial Teapot Argument.

 

You cannot prove that there is not a teacup in orbit around Jupiter, however that does not mean that it is likely to exist.

 

 

Why can't the two coexist? Like I said, Georges Lemaitres was a devout Catholic before, during, and after he came up with the theory of the Big Bang. He was awarded by the Vatican for significant contribution to science.

 

He could have the two coexist, why can't others? I'm not saying one's wrong, I am not saying one's right. But why must you all carry on like they are mutually exclusive?

 

Because they are incompatible. We have Science which explains much of the natural world around us. Then we have the Bible which just an old book, seriously the fan club has gone to far.

 

Calling a religion a fan club, and then implying that Science is the end all to any argument; (no, you did not say that exactly.) is kind of an odd comparison. You need to remember that nothing in Science is set in stone, it constantly changes as we have seen in History. Who knows, one day someone God will be proved by Science. Nor, is your future set in stone you may one day realize Muhammad was right, and convert to Islam. Don't be so quick to pass judgement. Why Couldn't God had started the Big Bang?