Genesis and The Big Bang

[Wongtong]

Things don't occur just because. There is a reason things happen. Just because you can't see a reason don't assume a god did it.

I know if you read that right you would see that I knew. I know there is a reason to it. And what the hell would the point in believing in a god. That's what believing in a god is. It's having blind faith and knowing that there is a reason for most things, even if we can't see it.

So.. What was the point in this post? Are you trying to say that jaerkd00d is incorrect? It seems to me like you're just confirming his statement that

Just because you can't see a reason don't assume a god did it.

because you're basically saying that you can't find a reason for things happening, so you have 'blind faith' and believe in (a) God. So.... you're just assuming a god did it because you can't find any other explanation.

 

Why don't you take a guess? Trust me, it'll be easy.

Nothing?

 

But I don't think you were atheist because being an atheist involves not believing in supernatural/ghosts, which I think you believe in.

[ElkNight]

:-| Nothing?

[Jes]

:-| Nothing?

Exactly.

[ElkNight]

That makes even less sense. What the hell.

[Greatsilverwyrm]

I know I have no proof, but neither do you.

 

I have far more evidence than you do.

 

I don't think about or care about what happened billions of years ago because I'm in 2009 not the year one billion.

 

Your apathy does not change what happened.

 

I don't believe that I my ancestors were monkeys.

 

Your ancestors were not monkeys. This is a misconception. If you'd like to know why it's a misconception let me know.

 

Why aren't we still evolving?

 

We are. I think you misunderstand the time-scales involved.

 

And there can be about 11 different processes to the water cycle. It basically recycles itself. You're only saying that its' not complex because you couldn't think of anything better to say.

 

I never said it wasn't complex. It definitely is complex. It's also completely explainable through natural methods, however.

[Jes]

Things don't occur just because. There is a reason things happen. Just because you can't see a reason don't assume a god did it.

I know if you read that right you would see that I knew. I know there is a reason to it. And what the hell would the point in believing in a god. That's what believing in a god is. It's having blind faith and knowing that there is a reason for most things, even if we can't see it.

So.. What was the point in this post? Are you trying to say that jaerkd00d is incorrect? It seems to me like you're just confirming his statement that

Just because you can't see a reason don't assume a god did it.

because you're basically saying that you can't find a reason for things happening, so you have 'blind faith' and believe in (a) God. So.... you're just assuming a god did it because you can't find any other explanation.

 

Why don't you take a guess? Trust me, it'll be easy.

Nothing?

 

But I don't think you were atheist because being an atheist involves not believing in supernatural/ghosts, which I think you believe in.

I'm not atheist anymore!!!! Who ever said I believed in ghosts when I was??? And as for that other stuff there could be another explanation, but I choose not to believe in them. Isn't that the whole point of this thread because there are 2 major theories on how the world was created. I've had religious experiences in life that I'm not even going to get into, which give me more of a reason to believe in a God than anything else...

 

That makes even less sense. What the hell.

Do you know how old I was or how many years ago that was? Do you know what religions or lack of religions I believed in when? I'm coming really close to writing out my life story so this will all start to make sense to you. I was a Christian when I was little. As I got older I started to not care and went through some hard times and figured if there was a God this stuff wouldn't have ever happened to me. Now that I'm older, I realize that there was a stupid reason to not believe because it had nothing to do with faith.

 

I know I have no proof, but neither do you.

 

I have far more evidence than you do.

 

I don't think about or care about what happened billions of years ago because I'm in 2009 not the year one billion.

 

Your apathy does not change what happened.

 

I don't believe that I my ancestors were monkeys.

 

Your ancestors were not monkeys. This is a misconception. If you'd like to know why it's a misconception let me know.

 

Why aren't we still evolving?

 

We are. I think you misunderstand the time-scales involved.

 

And there can be about 11 different processes to the water cycle. It basically recycles itself. You're only saying that its' not complex because you couldn't think of anything better to say.

 

I never said it wasn't complex. It definitely is complex. It's also completely explainable through natural methods, however.

How about we meet up in real life one day because I would really love to prove every single piece of "evidence" you have wrong.

[Greatsilverwyrm]

How about we meet up in real life one day because I would really love to prove every single piece of "evidence" you have wrong.

 

Ha!

 

Falsify evolution. Go!

[ElkNight]

How about we meet up in real life one day because I would really love to prove every single piece of "evidence" you have wrong.

How? And how would meeting up in real life help you try to falsify those things?

[Jes]

How about we meet up in real life one day because I would really love to prove every single piece of "evidence" you have wrong.

How? And how would meeting up in real life help you try to falsify those things?

First of all I was kidding, I would never meet up with someone from the internet, and second of all I'm really tired and don't feel like sitting on the computer arguing about Creationism and Evolution because this could go on forever.

[Grim_]

How about we meet up in real life one day because I would really love to prove every single piece of "evidence" you have wrong.

How? And how would meeting up in real life help you try to falsify those things?

First of all I was kidding, I would never meet up with someone from the internet, and second of all I'm really tired and don't feel like sitting on the computer arguing about Creationism and Evolution because this could go on forever.

Or you could just admit that you were wrong...

[Jes]

How about we meet up in real life one day because I would really love to prove every single piece of "evidence" you have wrong.

How? And how would meeting up in real life help you try to falsify those things?

First of all I was kidding, I would never meet up with someone from the internet, and second of all I'm really tired and don't feel like sitting on the computer arguing about Creationism and Evolution because this could go on forever.

Or you could just admit that you were wrong...

How the [bleep] can someone be wrong about an opinion?? You can't.

[Guest Mrmegakirby]

It's not really an opinion. What your favorite color is would be an opinion. Whats real and what's not isn't, it's fact.

[Jes]

It's not really an opinion. What your favorite color is would be an opinion. Whats real and what's not isn't, it's fact.

Honestly I don't think there is any way to prove if that's fact or fiction, so don't even try to pull that [cabbage] because if it was fact there wouldn't be a huge debate about it all around the world. And if I remember right, the question on this thread was to state your OPINION and that's exactly what I did. If it was fact...this thread wouldn't exist. That would be like posting a thread that said "Is America a country? State you opinion." That's what a fact is, and that's how dumb this thread would sound if the big bang theory was a fact.

[Wongtong]

It's not really an opinion. What your favorite color is would be an opinion. Whats real and what's not isn't, it's fact.

Honestly I don't think there is any way to prove if that's fact or fiction, so don't even try to pull that [cabbage] because if it was fact there wouldn't be a huge debate about it all around the world. And if I remember right, the question on this thread was to state your OPINION and that's exactly what I did. If it was fact...this thread wouldn't exist. That would be like posting a thread that said "Is America a country? State you opinion." That's what a fact is, and that's how dumb this thread would sound if the big bang theory was a fact.

So you're saying that just because it's your opinion we're not allowed to give you our thoughts on what your opinion is? You seem very close minded.

 

Note: There's no point in swearing here, you just look like you get infuriated easily and resort to swearing, it gets censored anyways.

[Jes]

It's not really an opinion. What your favorite color is would be an opinion. Whats real and what's not isn't, it's fact.

Honestly I don't think there is any way to prove if that's fact or fiction, so don't even try to pull that [cabbage] because if it was fact there wouldn't be a huge debate about it all around the world. And if I remember right, the question on this thread was to state your OPINION and that's exactly what I did. If it was fact...this thread wouldn't exist. That would be like posting a thread that said "Is America a country? State you opinion." That's what a fact is, and that's how dumb this thread would sound if the big bang theory was a fact.

So you're saying that just because it's your opinion we're not allowed to give you our thoughts on what your opinion is? You seem very close minded.

 

Note: There's no point in swearing here, you just look like you get infuriated easily and resort to swearing, it gets censored anyways.

Actually it's not so much your comments that it is people trying to make me sound stupid because I don't believe in yours. And I swear a lot, especially in real life. It doesn't bother me that it's censored because people still know what I'm saying.

[TTanT]

It's not really an opinion. What your favorite color is would be an opinion. Whats real and what's not isn't, it's fact.

Honestly I don't think there is any way to prove if that's fact or fiction, so don't even try to pull that [cabbage] because if it was fact there wouldn't be a huge debate about it all around the world. And if I remember right, the question on this thread was to state your OPINION and that's exactly what I did. If it was fact...this thread wouldn't exist. That would be like posting a thread that said "Is America a country? State you opinion." That's what a fact is, and that's how dumb this thread would sound if the big bang theory was a fact.

So you're saying that just because it's your opinion we're not allowed to give you our thoughts on what your opinion is? You seem very close minded.

 

Note: There's no point in swearing here, you just look like you get infuriated easily and resort to swearing, it gets censored anyways.

Actually it's not so much your comments that it is people trying to make me sound stupid because I don't believe in yours. And I swear a lot, especially in real life. It doesn't bother me that it's censored because people still know what I'm saying.

 

 

Firstly I'd like to point out that cussing is a dreadful habit to get into. Try doing what I do- shout out random inconherent syllables instead!

 

Now, onto the actual thread.

 

Evolution is the subject of much debate, but guess what? For a long time the Sun being the center of our solar system was the subject of much debate.

 

It had been proven to be so, but many refused to accept it.

 

 

I can seem similarities between these two times.

 

 

 

Also, evolution is a fact. We know that animals change over time. You can actually observe that.

 

The thing we don't know is how evolution works, exactly.

 

Darwin's theory had a much longer timescale than what it appears to be now, and random mutations shouldn't cause changes this quickly.

 

 

PS- If I got anything wrong here, please forgive me. I probably shouldn't even be posting this, judging by how tired I'm feeling right now.

[Jes]

It's not really an opinion. What your favorite color is would be an opinion. Whats real and what's not isn't, it's fact.

Honestly I don't think there is any way to prove if that's fact or fiction, so don't even try to pull that [cabbage] because if it was fact there wouldn't be a huge debate about it all around the world. And if I remember right, the question on this thread was to state your OPINION and that's exactly what I did. If it was fact...this thread wouldn't exist. That would be like posting a thread that said "Is America a country? State you opinion." That's what a fact is, and that's how dumb this thread would sound if the big bang theory was a fact.

So you're saying that just because it's your opinion we're not allowed to give you our thoughts on what your opinion is? You seem very close minded.

 

Note: There's no point in swearing here, you just look like you get infuriated easily and resort to swearing, it gets censored anyways.

Actually it's not so much your comments that it is people trying to make me sound stupid because I don't believe in yours. And I swear a lot, especially in real life. It doesn't bother me that it's censored because people still know what I'm saying.

 

 

Firstly I'd like to point out that cussing is a dreadful habit to get into. Try doing what I do- shout out random inconherent syllables instead!

 

Now, onto the actual thread.

 

Evolution is the subject of much debate, but guess what? For a long time the Sun being the center of our solar system was the subject of much debate.

 

It had been proven to be so, but many refused to accept it.

 

 

I can seem similarities between these two times.

 

 

 

Also, evolution is a fact. We know that animals change over time. You can actually observe that.

 

The thing we don't know is how evolution works, exactly.

 

Darwin's theory had a much longer timescale than what it appears to be now, and random mutations shouldn't cause changes this quickly.

 

 

PS- If I got anything wrong here, please forgive me. I probably shouldn't even be posting this, judging by how tired I'm feeling right now.

Trust me, I think we all are. I really don't feel like arguing anymore. And trust me the swearing ship has sailed. Everyone I know does. I started swearing at a very inappropriate age and I'm 17 now.

[TTanT]

It's not really an opinion. What your favorite color is would be an opinion. Whats real and what's not isn't, it's fact.

Honestly I don't think there is any way to prove if that's fact or fiction, so don't even try to pull that [cabbage] because if it was fact there wouldn't be a huge debate about it all around the world. And if I remember right, the question on this thread was to state your OPINION and that's exactly what I did. If it was fact...this thread wouldn't exist. That would be like posting a thread that said "Is America a country? State you opinion." That's what a fact is, and that's how dumb this thread would sound if the big bang theory was a fact.

So you're saying that just because it's your opinion we're not allowed to give you our thoughts on what your opinion is? You seem very close minded.

 

Note: There's no point in swearing here, you just look like you get infuriated easily and resort to swearing, it gets censored anyways.

Actually it's not so much your comments that it is people trying to make me sound stupid because I don't believe in yours. And I swear a lot, especially in real life. It doesn't bother me that it's censored because people still know what I'm saying.

 

 

Firstly I'd like to point out that cussing is a dreadful habit to get into. Try doing what I do- shout out random inconherent syllables instead!

 

Now, onto the actual thread.

 

Evolution is the subject of much debate, but guess what? For a long time the Sun being the center of our solar system was the subject of much debate.

 

It had been proven to be so, but many refused to accept it.

 

 

I can seem similarities between these two times.

 

 

 

Also, evolution is a fact. We know that animals change over time. You can actually observe that.

 

The thing we don't know is how evolution works, exactly.

 

Darwin's theory had a much longer timescale than what it appears to be now, and random mutations shouldn't cause changes this quickly.

 

 

PS- If I got anything wrong here, please forgive me. I probably shouldn't even be posting this, judging by how tired I'm feeling right now.

Trust me, I think we all are. I really don't feel like arguing anymore. And trust me the swearing ship has sailed. Everyone I know does. I started swearing at a very inappropriate age and I'm 17 now.

 

 

...What...?

 

I understood all the stuff about cussing, and not wanting to argue. But before that its all nonsensical to me....

 

Gah, I'm going to bed.

[Jes]

It's not really an opinion. What your favorite color is would be an opinion. Whats real and what's not isn't, it's fact.

Honestly I don't think there is any way to prove if that's fact or fiction, so don't even try to pull that [cabbage] because if it was fact there wouldn't be a huge debate about it all around the world. And if I remember right, the question on this thread was to state your OPINION and that's exactly what I did. If it was fact...this thread wouldn't exist. That would be like posting a thread that said "Is America a country? State you opinion." That's what a fact is, and that's how dumb this thread would sound if the big bang theory was a fact.

So you're saying that just because it's your opinion we're not allowed to give you our thoughts on what your opinion is? You seem very close minded.

 

Note: There's no point in swearing here, you just look like you get infuriated easily and resort to swearing, it gets censored anyways.

Actually it's not so much your comments that it is people trying to make me sound stupid because I don't believe in yours. And I swear a lot, especially in real life. It doesn't bother me that it's censored because people still know what I'm saying.

 

 

Firstly I'd like to point out that cussing is a dreadful habit to get into. Try doing what I do- shout out random inconherent syllables instead!

 

Now, onto the actual thread.

 

Evolution is the subject of much debate, but guess what? For a long time the Sun being the center of our solar system was the subject of much debate.

 

It had been proven to be so, but many refused to accept it.

 

 

I can seem similarities between these two times.

 

 

 

Also, evolution is a fact. We know that animals change over time. You can actually observe that.

 

The thing we don't know is how evolution works, exactly.

 

Darwin's theory had a much longer timescale than what it appears to be now, and random mutations shouldn't cause changes this quickly.

 

 

PS- If I got anything wrong here, please forgive me. I probably shouldn't even be posting this, judging by how tired I'm feeling right now.

Trust me, I think we all are. I really don't feel like arguing anymore. And trust me the swearing ship has sailed. Everyone I know does. I started swearing at a very inappropriate age and I'm 17 now.

 

 

...What...?

 

I understood all the stuff about cussing, and not wanting to argue. But before that its all nonsensical to me....

 

Gah, I'm going to bed.

I meant we're probably all tired. Lol.

[ElkNight]

Can you at least post what is wrong with evolution and how science is wrong. You managed to dodge that question the whole time.

[warri0r45]

I know I have no proof, but neither do you. I don't think about or care about what happened billions of years ago because I'm in 2009 not the year one billion. I don't believe that I my ancestors were monkeys. Looks at them now. Do they appear to be getting anymore intelligent...no. They live then they die. Why aren't we still evolving? And there can be about 11 different processes to the water cycle. It basically recycles itself. You're only saying that its' not complex because you couldn't think of anything better to say. Honestly I was stating my opinion, not looking for someone to be a [wagon]. Don't worry, I have plenty in my life.

First of all, calm down. We're not all being [wagon], we're just simply stating our own opinions on this matter.

 

We are still evolving through subtle mutations or changes throughout generations.

Are you sure you understand what evolution is about? I don't know everything about evolution but I do know the jist of it; the monkeys we know today share a common ancestor which we evolved from, which is why the monkeys of today can't evolve into humans now. Okay that sounds kind of confusing, I'm sure someone knows what I'm talking about.

 

What does the water cycle being complex have to do anything? It's just a cycle that occurs, it's not complex at all...

If you would read my original post you would know that I happen to think that it is too complex to just occur "just because". If it's not complex to you guys, I would love to see you live without it.

 

I'm curious to know why you think something is created because it's complex? The water cycle is complex, but we know it's based on completely natural processes. The problem with your way of thinking is that as we discover more and more, there are less natural occurances that can be or need to be explained by supernatural forces. At one point some very superstitious people thought that thunder was created by the God Thor, but that belief has died out because we know there are completely natural circumstances that lead to the creation of thunder.

 

I can't remember who said it, but they nailed it on the head - your argument, and any other like it, is an argument from incredulity. "I can't understand how this happened, so God must have done it!"

 

As for your belief that we're not related to monkeys, retrotransposons prove you wrong. If you'd like me to explain I can, but I already have in post #144, page 8. If that's not enough info, I've attached a link to a good, straightforward review article on the subject:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~jinchuan.xing/pdf/Xing_etal_YPA_2007.pdf

[MisterGreen]

Genes change, yes. But there is a limit to how much they change. There was a study done with fruit flies that were bred at an astounding rate, all the while the scientists were trying to mutate them into something else. There were some bizarre results, but the fruit flies refused to become anything other than fruit flies. I'm not saying evolution is completely wrong, but there are definitely problems with it.

[warri0r45]

Genes change, yes. But there is a limit to how much they change. There was a study done with fruit flies that were bred at an astounding rate, all the while the scientists were trying to mutate them into something else. There were some bizarre results, but the fruit flies refused to become anything other than fruit flies. I'm not saying evolution is completely wrong, but there are definitely problems with it.

 

Completely false. There is no limit to the amount of genetic change possible so long as there is a selective advantage to the change. Some examples of genetic changes and their causes are as follows:

 

1) Point mutations -- due to errors in DNA replication. There is no mechanism to prevent point mutations beyond any threshold, although there are extensive DNA repair mechanisms which keep the rate of point mutations down very low.

2) Chromosome duplications -- due to nondisjunction in meiosis, i.e. due to a failure of chromosomes to separate during cell division. Mostly fatal.

3) Partial chromosome duplications -- due to unequal crossing over during meiosis, i.e. as chromosomes line up during cell division, part of one is transferred to another. Crossing over occurs frequently, and on the odd occasion the process will lead to duplications of whole slabs of chromosomes. Again, there is no inherent barrier to this process (well, the only limiting factor is how much repetitive DNA there is between the chromosomes). This is probably a significant factor in evolution over longer time scales, along with the next example..

4) Whole genome duplications -- due to a complete failure of meiosis. Leads to extra copies of all chromosomes in the genome. Genetic research suggests that modern wheat underwent multiple genome duplications from it's origins as a grass to its modern day form.

 

The one thing I'm really trying to impress on you here is that there are no inherent mechanisms to prevent genetic change beyond any human-defined point. Sure, there are factors that will dictate the kind of changes that are allowable and shape the direction of evolution, the most notable example being natural selection.

 

The reason fruit flies remained fruit flies in the study you cite (and it would do good to actually cite the study, if you could please) is that it takes a very long time for them to evolve into anything significantly different. There have been studies, however, that show fruit fly speciation in action. http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/_0_0/evo_45

 

You're never going to get a fruit fly evolving into a beetle, or anything else that drastic. If that's what you expect then you really don't understand evolution.

[Shinjula]

Genes change, yes. But there is a limit to how much they change.

Agreeing with warri0r45 completely here, simple question... What exactly is going to limit how much they change?

Only the possibilities of the ordering of genes and DNA whilst still remaining functional and that accounts for all life on the planet.

[Kwaichi]

I believe in mixture of Genesis and Big bang.

God created everything via Big bang, followed buy evolution etc. Easy.. where should be the problem ?

 

For every change there must be some energy and this evergy is given by God.