lets say there was evolution but wat was before that? how did everything in the world come to be from the very start... its kinda weird thinking abou it.

Organic molecules can do wonders..

 

All that aside, Matt is still correct. The benifits which religion brought were exhausted centuries ago.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would disagree. Religion still benefits people today, I can speak from personal, objective experience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personal and objective are mutually exclusive, a personal and objective experience does not exist (though one could argue all experiences are personal anyway, so it wouldn't matter either way).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personally, I think Matt and rick are forgetting the fact that religion has helped and still helps science in some areas (as an example, the Vatican / Catholic Church spend money funding specific areas of stem cell research as long as they don't use unborn babies for this purpose (they do this to make sure science has an alternative to using those unborn babies, because the usage of such foetuses is objectionable from their point of view)).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I'm aware religion has held back science in the past, and still does to some extent today, but I think it's a good thing now. The church doesn't have nearly as much power as it did in the Dark Ages (good thing, if you ask me) and it uses the power it still has to encourage ethical debates about whether it is morally right to work on specific scientific projects (such as the cloning of humans, for example). I think a lot of scientists are too fond of their research projects to look beyond them and realise the consequences the results of their research will have on society. Religion helps people realise things like that, and at least give the matter some thought before plunging ahead blindly.

I know that Hannibal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I also know that no matter what happens, religion will most likely always be around, so whatever :P

The future is secular! Religion does nothing but hold back the development of society

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To be honest I would say religion has it's pros and cons regardless of whether it's true. If someone believed in a god that cared for their well-being then that person would see a true meaning to life even if life itself has little or nothing to offer, so in times of woe or depression they could fall back on their religion. All religions do have a belief in the common good and this adds to some sort of peace and alot of religions do charitable work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The otherside to religion would be the obvious ones - conflicts between them, e.g protestants and catholics in Northern Island, many conflicts in the middle east to do with religion, mass genocide to a particular religion has happened throughout the history of the world meaning that the perpetraitor had some kind of religious view point. A lot of religions restrict your personal life as well; foods you eat, places you goto, people you marry. So I would say it would be correct in that your holding back advancement of the human civilisation however religion does have a good purpose in some ways.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can already see religion slowly fading away as we learn more about the world and the facts fill in the fiction. But to have true faith unto a religion is quite amazing even if all the answers and all the proof of a god existing point to no. My personal explanation of why people have true faith inside them is because they were taught the religion at a very early age (below 5 years of age) this is a time when the mind is very susseptable to knowledge and of course you tell a child somethings true and they'll take that knowledge and they'll think it's true forever until proven false and of course you can't prove that religion isn't true just like you can't prove that their isn't a flying spagetti monster looking over all of us in a galaxy far far away.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

lets say there was evolution but wat was before that? how did everything in the world come to be from the very start... its kinda weird thinking abou it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well firstly about 4.5 billion years ago a supernova explosion (a supermassive star exploded) happened quite close to a planetary nebula (a cloud of gas, dust and larger particles). The sheer force of the explosion caused the dust and gas to clump together by gravity and as more and more clumped together more particles were pulled in by gravity eventually the sun formed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After a few million years a huge explosion happened within the sun as nuclear fusion took place and forced millions and trillions of tonnes of rock and gas outwards, the heavier rocks didn't go as far (the 4 rocky planets and the asteroid belt) whilst the gas carried on further (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune). When the gas and rock was first expelled by the sun it was in a ring (like saturns ring) eventually gravity clumped the rocks and gas together to form all the planets. The asteroid belt never formed into a planet because the pull of Jupiter and the pull of the sun never allowed it to form.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now at this time (around 4 billion years ago) because of the newly formed sun the gravity was forcing tonnes of asteroids into the inner planets which meant many asteroid impacts on earth and the other planets one of them was the size of mars (noone knows how the earth wasn't destroyed by it) but the force of the impact totally obliterated the asteroid and tonnes of rock was expelled out of the earth forming a ring round the earth (again like saturns) eventually this clumped together to form the moon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After a few million years the earth cooled down and the surface was no longer liquid magma and had turned to rock. The hydrogen-helium atmosphere was lost and in turn was replaced by tonnes of water vapour which was being pumped into the atmosphere by the large number of volcanoes emitting steam. 500 million years later the temperature had cooled enough on earth so that the water vapour became water and the oceans filled with water. Now at this time life began (3.5 billion years ago). Cyanobacteria were basically bacteria which used the suns light to create their energy. After another few million years the earth was completely filled with these organisms however they excreted tonnes of oxygen into the atmosphere as a waste product, fortunetly for them the oxygen was absorbed by iron to form rust (or iron oxide) but once all the iron had been used up the oxygen soon filled up most of the atmosphere and the oxygen was poisonous to the bacteria and there was a mass extinction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I could go on and on but I won't, I don't even know why i've typed all of that :lol: but to me it's very interesting how the earth developed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I could talk about the history of the milky way and how the milky way started and the universe but I won't bother otherwise i'll be typing here all day.

 

lets say there was evolution but wat was before that? how did everything in the world come to be from the very start... its kinda weird thinking abou it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well firstly about 4.5 billion years ago a supernova explosion (a supermassive star exploded) happened quite close to a planetary nebula (a cloud of gas, dust and larger particles).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That would appear to *not* be the very start, since there already appears to be something here (gas, dust, and larger particles).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All that aside, Matt is still correct. The benifits which religion brought were exhausted centuries ago.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would disagree. Religion still benefits people today, I can speak from personal, objective experience.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personal and objective are mutually exclusive, a personal and objective experience does not exist (though one could argue all experiences are personal anyway, so it wouldn't matter either way)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Toucḫ̩̉̉... I was wondering whether someone would call me on the objectivity :P what I meant was that I wasn't just saying that for the sake of my argument.

 

 

lets say there was evolution but wat was before that? how did everything in the world come to be from the very start... its kinda weird thinking abou it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well firstly about 4.5 billion years ago a supernova explosion (a supermassive star exploded) happened quite close to a planetary nebula (a cloud of gas, dust and larger particles).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That would appear to *not* be the very start, since there already appears to be something here (gas, dust, and larger particles).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well I would of gone into the galaxies development but I just thought it would of been a bit of a long read for a reply.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But I could simplfy it;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Universe started approximately 13.7 billion years ago. Supposedly from the cosmic background radiation (a snapshot of radiation from when the universe was very young; less than 300k years old) the universe originated from an extremely small particle around the size of an atom. Within a trillionth of a second this small particle had inflated trillions upon trillions of it's size as this was happening there was a super-force which which was the force of gravity, electromagnetic force, the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force. This mega-force split into the 4 forces we see today and this all happened within trillionths of a second (in a particle accelerators they've shown that this could be possible and even got the strong and weak nuclear forces to act as one) and for 300k years after this big bang all that existed was light and radiation - no solid, liquid, or gas existed until the universe had cooled to about 1 m degrees kelvin (I think it was that temperature) in which the particles of radiation were moving slowly enough to come together.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway the milky way is thought to be an extremely old galaxy in the universe and is dated to of started around 13+ billion years ago although the origins of the milky way is quite unknown it's thought that a quasar (a super massive star which was so immense that it could create very heavy elements from nuclear fusion e.g lead, gold, iron (our sun creates only helium from hydrogen and some other trace elements). Anyhow the star got so immense that the nuclear force which was constantly exploding inside the core of the huge star couldn't hold off the force of gravity and the star imploded and ripped a hole through space-time creating a black hole. The blackhole caused millions of stars from a wide space to be attracted to the immense gravitional force. This is what we see as the big white bit in the middle of the milky way. The origins of our planetary nebula is most likely from a supernova - the supernova exploded creating all the heavier elements like uranium and deuterium. This happened within our galaxy about 5 billion years ago.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Just to note that quasars are thought to of all been converted into black holes as the only quasar sightings are 14.5 billion light years away (the most furthest object ever seen being a quasar - apart from Cosmic Background radiation). I'm not going to explain how you can see an object that is more than 13.7 billion light years away cause i've already gone waaaaay off topic.

I'd have to agree with Darkrick, religion and advancement do not go hand in hand. Look at every country in the world that is very, very religious (even bases it's law code possibly on religion). Take a look at The Ayatollah's Iran, take a look at Afghanistan, take a look at medieval Europe, the current Arab nations, Egypt, Syria, ... Wherever in the world religion has a strong grip, freedom of speech is limited, people are tortured on the shadow of a religious book, poverty is high, terrorists emerge, education is low etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then take a look at the world, particularly post classic europe, when scientific theories, ideologies and inventions started getting place in the society.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Even though it would still take until about 1900, employees started getting paid well, one by one countries started getting wealthier and the freedom of speech was increased, the right of free assembly was granted, tyrannies were overthrown, people's dwellings became more comfortable, technology enabled things people a few hundred years back could've only dreamed about (hey, not even the mightiest king or emperor in the year 1300 could've even thinked about traveling to the other side of the world in a matter of hours whereas today we take it for granted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Western countries are not very religious, in America alone 13% state their religion as "none", practically the amount is about the same in wealthy European countries (as well as other OECD countries). If we speak in the terms of improving the quality of life and the freedom of people, serious science is definitely a better option than religion.

This whole thing stemmed from the perversion of the word "theory".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There seems to be a difference in the scientific usage and everyday useage of the word. In the science world, it doesn't mean an "unproved claim", it means it's been tested, and experimentally verified as fact.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Confusion on the definition has led some of the uninformed to believe evolution is unproved. This is untrue. There is a great deal of information out there that shows we are the product of billions of years of amino acids interacting and streamlining themselves into greater forms through randomness, chaos, and natural selection.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, I am religious, but I use my religion as guidance, not as a way to close off my mind to the universe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, there have been many atrocities done in the name of religion but this doesn't mean religion is evil. The original purpose of nearly all religions was to give moral guidance. To teach tolerance, even to those who do not follow the same religion. To take care of each other.

 

 

 

The problem is, religions themselves tend to evolve. People add to the religion and modify it over time. Occasionally, fanatics take them over and use religion as a tool to strengthen their own powers. They use religion as a sheild for their own personal agenda. Many seem to only remember this about religion, and forget it's true origins. It isn't religion, but people that cause the problems.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Western countries are not very religious, in America alone 13% state their religion as "none", practically the amount is about the same in wealthy European countries (as well as other OECD countries). If we speak in the terms of improving the quality of life and the freedom of people, serious science is definitely a better option than religion.

 

 

 

Just a note: The amount of outright atheists are about the same between america and europe, but americans are much more likely to have much stronger religious beliefs, and be more involved.

it apears that the problem is not religion it is people that base their understanding of the universe on books written 2000+ years ago.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

lets say there was evolution but wat was before that? how did everything in the world come to be from the very start... its kinda weird thinking abou it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well firstly about 4.5 billion years ago a supernova explosion (a supermassive star exploded) happened quite close to a planetary nebula (a cloud of gas, dust and larger particles).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That would appear to *not* be the very start, since there already appears to be something here (gas, dust, and larger particles).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

membrane theory stats that there are 11 dimensions and in the 11th one there are mambranes that slowly float around. believers of this theory say that the colision of 2 or more membranes created the bigbang and that there could be infenit universes each with its own laws so that could be even closer to the begining but what happend to create that is the question.

I'd have to agree with Darkrick, religion and advancement do not go hand in hand. Look at every country in the world that is very, very religious (even bases it's law code possibly on religion). Take a look at The Ayatollah's Iran, take a look at Afghanistan, take a look at medieval Europe, the current Arab nations, Egypt, Syria, ... Wherever in the world religion has a strong grip, freedom of speech is limited, people are tortured on the shadow of a religious book, poverty is high, terrorists emerge, education is low etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then take a look at the world, particularly post classic europe, when scientific theories, ideologies and inventions started getting place in the society.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Even though it would still take until about 1900, employees started getting paid well, one by one countries started getting wealthier and the freedom of speech was increased, the right of free assembly was granted, tyrannies were overthrown, people's dwellings became more comfortable, technology enabled things people a few hundred years back could've only dreamed about (hey, not even the mightiest king or emperor in the year 1300 could've even thinked about traveling to the other side of the world in a matter of hours whereas today we take it for granted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Western countries are not very religious, in America alone 13% state their religion as "none", practically the amount is about the same in wealthy European countries (as well as other OECD countries). If we speak in the terms of improving the quality of life and the freedom of people, serious science is definitely a better option than religion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You make a good point about science improving the quality of life for people, but I'd argue that religion can improve something science cannot. Science is great for improving people's circumstances, but it cannot improve people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've seen people who were arrogant, lustful, deceitful, or hateful suddenly become humble, honest, and loving after becoming Christians. However, I've never seen any scientific discovery affect a change like that in a person. Science and religion each have their own place in life - science to improve the life; religion to improve the person living that life and to teach him how to enjoy and use it best.

I've seen people who were arrogant, lustful, deceitful, or hateful suddenly become humble, honest, and loving after becoming Christians. However, I've never seen any scientific discovery affect a change like that in a person. Science and religion each have their own place in life - science to improve the life; religion to improve the person living that life and to teach him how to enjoy and use it best.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the nuke ended WW2 estimates say that it saved about 5 million people

 

I've seen people who were arrogant, lustful, deceitful, or hateful suddenly become humble, honest, and loving after becoming Christians. However, I've never seen any scientific discovery affect a change like that in a person. Science and religion each have their own place in life - science to improve the life; religion to improve the person living that life and to teach him how to enjoy and use it best.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the nuke ended WW2 estimates say that it saved about 5 million people

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...you didn't understand his post, did you?

 

 

I've seen people who were arrogant, lustful, deceitful, or hateful suddenly become humble, honest, and loving after becoming Christians. However, I've never seen any scientific discovery affect a change like that in a person. Science and religion each have their own place in life - science to improve the life; religion to improve the person living that life and to teach him how to enjoy and use it best.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

the nuke ended WW2 estimates say that it saved about 5 million people

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...you didn't understand his post, did you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Heh, my thought exactly. That really goes in favor of my point - the nuke extended the duration of five million people's lives, which is improving the quality of life for them. However, it did nothing to make them better people. :)

Go science!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

lol

The way I see it is this

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The way science should be taught is by what scientists say. And that is that we evolved over many millions of years due to the microscopic organisms that were able to die and reproduce at thousands our rate, which lead to our current state of beings - humans(Which came from monkeys which came from small rodents or something and so forth)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now that is SCIENCE, because it is thought of by a SCIENTIST. Makes sense, right? How can you christians go around saying No, thats not how it happened when 90% of scientists say that IS how it happened. Might I add that i honestly don't know of many strongly christian scientists (for obvious reasons)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now if kids parents wanted their children to learn how it was in their faith, then they can

 

 

 

A) Teach them at home. Hell, they can do almost anything they want at home.

 

 

 

B) Not take the class

 

 

 

or my favorite

 

 

 

C) Shut the hell up and get over the fact that it doesnt exactly follow your beliefs, for how are you any better if you try to force your beliefs upon other people saying that it shouldnt be taught. Its not much of a compramise i think.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well thats just my opinion not that anyone will read this :wink:

The way I see it is this

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The way science should be taught is by what scientists say. And that is that we evolved over many millions of years due to the microscopic organisms that were able to die and reproduce at thousands our rate, which lead to our current state of beings - humans(Which came from monkeys which came from small rodents or something and so forth)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually we evolved from apes more specifically something chimp-like, not simians (monkies), but both simians and apes evolved from the same early primate.

I would rather this topic died. I'm sick of discussing this now. Its old news

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The future is secular! Religion does nothing but hold back the development of society

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hell yeah. But as long we have crazy religious fanatics and people with positions of power...the religions will be here for a long time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Does everyone know that recently, the Catholic or Christian Church admitted that some parts of the bible was wrong?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Took them what, 2000 years to admit that?!?!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually we evolved from apes more specifically something chimp-like, not simians (monkies), but both simians and apes evolved from the same early primate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pah ta toh

 

 

 

poh to toh

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

same thing

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually we evolved from apes more specifically something chimp-like, not simians (monkies), but both simians and apes evolved from the same early primate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pah ta toh

 

 

 

poh to toh

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

same thing

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually no, they're quite different. If we'd evolved from monkies we would be radically dissimilar from what we are now. Not so much so as if we had evolved from say, iguanas.. but pretty dissimilar.

Does everyone know that recently, the Catholic or Christian Church admitted that some parts of the bible was wrong?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Took them what, 2000 years to admit that?!?!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, if you want the link for the news story, it's in my last post. And it's officially issued by the Vatican advising the fellow believers so it's an important document and yet another 'good' step. No, you can never remove religion totally, and I don't even think it's necessary.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A lot of people have put up with great amounts of crap during their lives, and it's better that they have something to believe in than not having anything at all to believe in. And other types of personalities may just want a sense of security in their lives.

 

 

 

This is religion at it's best, when it heals people's souls. As long as it's used for peaceful purposes like this, I say let christianity, islam, judaism, buddhism or whatever expand further.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the religious "authorities" of these religions on the other hand want to use the religion for suppression, ruling, torture, reduction of freedom, spreading false beliefs and pseudo-science as truths, I think any educated person in the world would agree that in this case religion does more harm than good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's the difference, I have experience about it: Talk to an educated christian and when you eventually ask him does he believe God created the universe, he'll say yes, but he will also admit evolution was a necessary thing while creating the world (but that does not shut off either possibility).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

An uneducated person that hasn't unfortunately got educated at all or doesn't know how to read (this is very common especially in third world countries), will take everything their religious community leader or the holy book says as divine truth, and if you try debating evolution with them they will not know a thing about it or call you a blasphemer in the extreme case.

I would rather this topic died. I'm sick of discussing this now. Its old news

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The future is secular! Religion does nothing but hold back the development of society

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe that religion defines a person's morality, usually imprinting itself on them while they are a child.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For example, in my religion (Christianity), the teaching 'Do onto others as you would want them do onto you'. A child taught this idea can easily comprehend what it means - if you and everyone else follows this teaching and you are kind to others, you will receive kindness in return.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, it is obvious that in 'modern society', not everyone follows ideas such as this (regardless of their religion), because if everyone did, there would be no crime, violence, war... etc

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So perhaps religion is the one thing preventing modern society from crumbling...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(Just for the record, I fully support the theory of evolution, I believe that the universe had to begin somewhere... i.e. created by God and left to evolve...)

I think that the Kansas School Board has a point. The theory of evolution is just a theory, much like the theory of gravity, and as such it is not proven and alternatives are possible. For this reason I think it is right that 'inteligent design' is taught. However, it would be wrong to limit the classroom to just one alternative theory. Another equally valid theory is that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. This alternative theory has already received some support from President Bush as well as some of the members of the Kansas School Board.

I think that the Kansas School Board has a point. The theory of evolution is just a theory, much like the theory of gravity, and as such it is not proven and alternatives are possible. For this reason I think it is right that 'inteligent design' is taught. However, it would be wrong to limit the classroom to just one alternative theory. Another equally valid theory is that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. This alternative theory has already received some support from President Bush as well as some of the members of the Kansas School Board.

 

 

 

However this theory violates the first amendment the government will not favor one religion over another and this theory goes against atheism.

it apears that the problem is not religion it is people that base their understanding of the universe on books written 2000+ years ago.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

lets say there was evolution but wat was before that? how did everything in the world come to be from the very start... its kinda weird thinking abou it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well firstly about 4.5 billion years ago a supernova explosion (a supermassive star exploded) happened quite close to a planetary nebula (a cloud of gas, dust and larger particles).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That would appear to *not* be the very start, since there already appears to be something here (gas, dust, and larger particles).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

membrane theory stats that there are 11 dimensions and in the 11th one there are mambranes that slowly float around. believers of this theory say that the colision of 2 or more membranes created the bigbang and that there could be infenit universes each with its own laws so that could be even closer to the begining but what happend to create that is the question.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you talking about string theory?

 

 

 

Last I heard it was slowly floating down the charts as nothing about it has been proved yet, and it was just a filler to explain some hadron behavior.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And I myself live in Kansas and I am VERY glad I got through biology last year :)