back to the original post:

 

epistemologically, the discussion is immaterial. people know things by different ways: logic, reason, perception, emotion and faith.

 

With perception, emotion and faith being subjective, you cannot prove "truths" logically or reasonably in attempts to disregard these three other ways of knowing. It makes no logical, or reasonable sense, thus the basis of your logic /reasoning is flawed, and in a vicious cycle, your argument paradoxically disproves itself, but also the counter-claim.

 

that's something to wrap your head around, if we're getting back into philosophy!

Weird how the Same-Sex Marriage thread turned into a religous debate and this one turned into a same-sex Marraige debate....

At least a new thread doesn't have to be made like it did in the SSM thread :mrgreen:

I'm not saying homosexuality is a choice, in the vast majority of cases I know of it's not. I'm just saying it's possible, at least for girls.

I'm not saying homosexuality is a choice, in the vast majority of cases I know of it's not. I'm just saying it's possible, at least for girls.

 

Nearly every girl I know who claims to be bi actually mean that, they constantly flip flop the gender they're going out with. I honestly don't get how it works with girls, but for guys I know it's not something that you just choose to switch.

I'm not saying homosexuality is a choice, in the vast majority of cases I know of it's not. I'm just saying it's possible, at least for girls.

 

I disagree. But that doesn't matter- Whether it is a matter of choice or isn't, discrimination against gays (or anyone else for that matter) is wrong and shouldn't exist.

 

 

Gays should have equal rights, one of them being marriage.

That might as well be true. It's just that some people seem to think being gay is a lustful choice with the only "purpose" of being sinful and promiscuous. But we are getting waaay off topic. :razz:

 

I'd like to argue against the very existence of souls. Without them, most religious belief systems would be quite shaken.

 

Now, most religions are based on a beliefs of life after death, and they very often assume there's an immortal soul that actually is the real person trapped inside a mortal body. A Ghost in the Machine, responsible for your identity, personality, and behaviour (or am I wrong?).

Thus I ask of you, do you have a soul? What does it do?

That might as well be true. It's just that some people seem to think being gay is a lustful choice with the only "purpose" of being sinful and promiscuous. But we are getting waaay off topic. :razz:

 

I'd like to argue against the very existence of souls. Without them, most religious belief systems would be quite shaken.

 

Now, most religions are based on a beliefs of life after death, and they very often assume there's an immortal soul that actually is the real person trapped inside a mortal body. A Ghost in the Machine, responsible for your identity, personality, and behaviour (or am I wrong?).

Thus I ask of you, do you have a soul? What does it do?

 

That thought occured to me few years back, and everyone else seem to have dismissed it on the spot for some reason. I guess it really is because it would shake many religous beliefs.

 

 

 

Whenever I thought about it more, it seemed less possible that souls actualy exist. When you die, your brain doesn't function any more, your heart doesn't function any more, why would your memory and personality be kept alive?

That might as well be true. It's just that some people seem to think being gay is a lustful choice with the only "purpose" of being sinful and promiscuous. But we are getting waaay off topic. :razz:

 

I'd like to argue against the very existence of souls. Without them, most religious belief systems would be quite shaken.

 

Now, most religions are based on a beliefs of life after death, and they very often assume there's an immortal soul that actually is the real person trapped inside a mortal body. A Ghost in the Machine, responsible for your identity, personality, and behaviour (or am I wrong?).

Thus I ask of you, do you have a soul? What does it do?

 

 

rather, what kind of system can you show in the electro-neural impulses of the brain? I don't know of any research that has identified the working mechanics, and I've looked all right. Few have defined what a "soul" is, in modern terms, as you always have to deal with the reality of science, and future research.

 

I don't see why religious people couldn't define the characteristics, mechanics and complexity of the human mind (as neccessitated by conception) as a "soul". I can't think of places where it contradicts with any major religions either...

The funny thing with souls is that anyone who does know the answer to the life after death question isn't really in a position to tell us... :lol:

 

I consider personality and memory to be the 'soul', because that's what makes an individual an individual. Yes, it's the result of brain chemicals and such, but that doesn't really change what it is. It doesn't have to live on after death to be important during life. It's very much shaped by experiences... Hell, my definition comes from my own.

 

And it's a trip to think that it's because of the same higher order thinking that brings us science that we have religions too.

The funny thing with souls is that anyone who does know the answer to the life after death question isn't really in a position to tell us... :lol:

 

I consider personality and memory to be the 'soul', because that's what makes an individual an individual. Yes, it's the result of brain chemicals and such, but that doesn't really change what it is. It doesn't have to live on after death to be important during life. It's very much shaped by experiences... Hell, my definition comes from my own.

 

And it's a trip to think that it's because of the same higher order thinking that brings us science that we have religions too.

 

The thing is, atleast that's how I know it, a soul cannot be a part of your body, which means that when your body dies your soul keeps living.

The funny thing with souls is that anyone who does know the answer to the life after death question isn't really in a position to tell us... :lol:

 

I consider personality and memory to be the 'soul', because that's what makes an individual an individual. Yes, it's the result of brain chemicals and such, but that doesn't really change what it is. It doesn't have to live on after death to be important during life. It's very much shaped by experiences... Hell, my definition comes from my own.

 

And it's a trip to think that it's because of the same higher order thinking that brings us science that we have religions too.

 

The thing is, atleast that's how I know it, a soul cannot be a part of your body, which means that when your body dies your soul keeps living.

I stopped going with traditional definitions of God years ago, why should I have stopped there? :lol:

The funny thing with souls is that anyone who does know the answer to the life after death question isn't really in a position to tell us... :lol:

 

I consider personality and memory to be the 'soul', because that's what makes an individual an individual. Yes, it's the result of brain chemicals and such, but that doesn't really change what it is. It doesn't have to live on after death to be important during life. It's very much shaped by experiences... Hell, my definition comes from my own.

 

And it's a trip to think that it's because of the same higher order thinking that brings us science that we have religions too.

 

The thing is, atleast that's how I know it, a soul cannot be a part of your body, which means that when your body dies your soul keeps living.

I stopped going with traditional definitions of God years ago, why should I have stopped there? :lol:

 

But then, what's the point in naming your personality&memory a soul?

There really isn't one. I just figured it's as good a definition as any.

Here's a question I'd love anyone who knows enough about religion to answer. I'm not asking it as means of trying to convince the other side, but literally out of curiousity.

 

 

 

What's God's incentive? Why would a perfect being want to create this world? Or help it grow, affect it, change it, etc?

In other words, why would God want us here?

Here's a question I'd love anyone who knows enough about religion to answer. I'm not asking it as means of trying to convince the other side, but literally out of curiousity.

 

 

What's God's incentive? Why would a perfect being want to create this world? Or help it grow, affect it, change it, etc?

In other words, why would God want us here?

 

I'm trying to avoid religious debates on TIF now, but since you claimed it's only out of curiosity...

 

If you're wondering specifically about the Christian God, it's very simple really. He wants us to bring honor and glory to Him, simply by accepting His love, enjoying His creation, and thanking and praising Him for it. That's it.

 

"But why humans?" you might ask. "Why let us turn out the way we did?" Well, supposedly God created angels long before He created the earth and humans. Angels know for a fact that God exists because they have personal contact with Him, and they must obey Him or be cast out. In a sense, angels have no free will. So, God made humans different. He gave us free will and created the universe in such a way that we can choose to love Him or not. Honestly, wouldn't you rather have someone choose to love you than be forced to be with you whether they love you or not? That's the whole point.

 

You don't have to believe it, but you asked so there's your answer. Now, if you're wondering about the god(s) from another religion, you'd have to ask someone else.

Here's a question I'd love anyone who knows enough about religion to answer. I'm not asking it as means of trying to convince the other side, but literally out of curiousity.

 

 

What's God's incentive? Why would a perfect being want to create this world? Or help it grow, affect it, change it, etc?

In other words, why would God want us here?

 

I'm trying to avoid religious debates on TIF now, but since you claimed it's only out of curiosity...

 

If you're wondering specifically about the Christian God, it's very simple really. He wants us to bring honor and glory to Him, simply by accepting His love, enjoying His creation, and thanking and praising Him for it. That's it.

 

"But why humans?" you might ask. "Why let us turn out the way we did?" Well, supposedly God created angels long before He created the earth and humans. Angels know for a fact that God exists because they have personal contact with Him, and they must obey Him or be cast out. In a sense, angels have no free will. So, God made humans different. He gave us free will and created the universe in such a way that we can choose to love Him or not. Honestly, wouldn't you rather have someone choose to love you than be forced to be with you whether they love you or not? That's the whole point.

 

You don't have to believe it, but you asked so there's your answer. Now, if you're wondering about the god(s) from another religion, you'd have to ask someone else.

 

No specific God, just God in general.

 

But if you opened it up, wouldn't values like honor and glory be a bit immature for a being considered perfect? Why would a perfect being need/want any praise or thanking?

 

 

This really is out of curiousity, and nothing else.

Well, obviously, different religions are going to have different ideas of a god or gods, so "God in general" doesn't really work.

 

And other than what I just posted, I really don't know what to tell you about why God would value those things.

 

Maybe He just got bored? :lol: [joking]

Well, obviously, different religions are going to have different ideas of a god or gods, so "God in general" doesn't really work.

 

And other than what I just posted, I really don't know what to tell you about why God would value those things.

 

Maybe He just got bored? :lol: [joking]

 

It would make sense that since God fills the same purpose (or a very close one) in most religions (or all), the answer to my question would either be the same, or not very different.

Here's a question I'd love anyone who knows enough about religion to answer. I'm not asking it as means of trying to convince the other side, but literally out of curiousity.

 

 

 

What's God's incentive? Why would a perfect being want to create this world? Or help it grow, affect it, change it, etc?

In other words, why would God want us here?

 

Thought I'd bump this as I didn't get any good response.

I'd figure that the answer is that there's no way that any living human could know what a god's motive would be, if it would have a motive to begin with.

Either way I'm going to enjoy the creation while I'm here :lol:

I'd figure that the answer is that there's no way that any living human could know what a god's motive would be, if it would have a motive to begin with.

Either way I'm going to enjoy the creation while I'm here :lol:

 

If there isn't the slightest of idea of God's incentive, why is the concept of God so popular?

 

I mean... If one of the purposes of religion is to explain the things we do not know (such as how we came to be), how comes it's popular even though the explenation is 'lacking'?

I'd figure that the answer is that there's no way that any living human could know what a god's motive would be, if it would have a motive to begin with.

Either way I'm going to enjoy the creation while I'm here :lol:

 

If there isn't the slightest of idea of God's incentive, why is the concept of God so popular?

 

I mean... If one of the purposes of religion is to explain the things we do not know (such as how we came to be), how comes it's popular even though the explenation is 'lacking'?

 

Because back in the day, there were no explanations for anything, and a lot of people needed something to believe in. They needed someway to explain it all, and this was their solution. Through the years, they just passed it along to their children, and it's still passed down through the generations, however in this day, more people are starting to question it instead of just believing blindly.

pegpenguin, on 22 February 2010 - 07:27 PM, said:

About the homosexuality thing...It is a sin, it's a warping of the way things God intended. Any urges of homosexuality or anything with anyone is a sin. The problem people have is coming to terms with the fact that they're sinners. Instead people deny some parts of scripture and take others out of context to say that it's okay, which is completely self-refuting.

 

 

 

 

Umm, without coming off as a douche:

 

I respect your opinion, however I beg to differ, allow me to explain.

 

I was raised Presbyterian Christian, (Mother was Catholic, Father Free Methodist) and now I'm non denominational, which I like better. I believe as I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) you believe as well: that everyone is born with original sin. From birth we are sinful, and need Jesus' forgiveness to become clean. However, after this point, I define sin as something that is done wrong, on purpose, and is morally, or faithfully incorrect, as well as unlawful by the laws in the establishment. (from stealing cookies from the cookie jar, to rape and murder in the big city.) No one is sinless save Jesus, because know one can overcome sin, though there are some that sin quite rarely, if you even look at a girl based on her body (based on some translations of the bible) that is considered lust, and is a sin. Ever miss church? Unless it was a complete accident, that is a sin (unless you are unable to get to church). These are on purpose, you chose to check out the girl's [wagon], or party Saturday night and miss church. Its your fault and no one else's (an exception is as stated there's no way to get there, like you have no ride etc.)you have put an idol before God, and sinned.

 

Now, along the years, the Church has twisted the words of the Bible to promote Slavery, war and racism. (The Isrealites enslaved a tribe, therefore we can enslave Africans!) Without really even trying to get the real meaning out of a message. As posted on either this thread, or same sex marriage the Christian church used to not allow interracial marriages, etc. However, it has come to light that being of a different race is infact not a sin, as some honestly believed. If you are born black, you will stay black. Theres obviously nothing wrong with it, and you were born that way, you didn't choose it.

 

Now I ask, whats the difference between being Gay, and being an African-American? They're both quite similar inthat they are not a choice, they're not 'inferior,' they're not detrimental to society and most certainly not a sin to be. If you say being Gay is unnatural, its tantamount to saying being black is unnatural.

 

If I, and many others did not choose to be Gay, and no malicious ideas are behind us being gay, how is being gay a sin? Ever read the Bible? Ruth, a woman God dearly loved, was a lesbian. SAY WHAT. She even had a book dedicated to her.

 

P.s. sorry if I came off as a douche, or condescending etc.

 

 

You weren't condescending in anyway fyi, and I agree with a lot of what you said.

 

Except for one point. How is homosexuality in anyway not a choice? Admittedly someone raised by a homosexual parent/couple will be more inclined to it, but is still a choice. From whatever standpoint you look at it from, evolutionist or religious, it still doesn't make sense. From an evolutionist, gay couples can't reproduce, so if it was a gay gene it would more than likely die out. From a religious standpoint, you've probably heard many arguments why it's wrong. But here's another. You were right that sin is a choice, it's a warping of the things God intended for us. And as for the original sin, I think it's more of an ability to rebel against the Law, which is part of free will. And when you do look at a woman lustfully, it is considered the same as sleeping with that woman because in your heart you want to. It's the same with a man, if a man looks at a man and lusts after him, it's the same as him sleeping with him. It's not the act itself it's the intention behind the act. And from a Christian standpoint, even a non-denominational one(which I am too, meaning I take everything I believe directly from the bible and not from what some preacher said) marriage is solely between a man and woman, and it always has been, you can't deviate from that. And it's a sin to lust after someone other than your husband/wife.

 

and as for the Ruth being a lesbian thing, I'll look into that, I have read Ruth as of yet, so I'm not sure. Although I'm not so sure it would matter much, seeing as Sinners run rampant in the bible. King David slept with someone other than his wife, and many other examples are everywhere in the bible. Just cause it's in the bible doesn't mean that God agrees with it.

 

Damn it, I wrote a long [wagon] post, sneezed and managed to delete it, + hit the back button somehow. Anyways:

 

There was a study on MSNBC, stating they did a study on the bodies reaction to the hormone Testosterone, gay men\straight women's bodies AND minds had a massive reaction, "all stations firing" I guess you could say brain wise. The Lesbian Women and Straight Men and a very minimal reaction, or simply no reaction at all.

 

Also theres a theory that if there's too much, or too little Testosterone in the mother womb, the child can become lesbian\gay "pre-natally" Because the body will either reject, or crave testosterone.

 

 

But tbh, I understand how you feel. I'm not heterophobic, (That implies I'm *afraid* to be straight, opposite for Homophobia)but I honestly cannot see what men see in Women. And, if I was straight, due to my upbringing I think I'd be very ummm gay-hating, I guess is the word. And I would think it be unnatural as well, but thats why we need to have a set definition of the word 'natural.'

I'd figure that the answer is that there's no way that any living human could know what a god's motive would be, if it would have a motive to begin with.

Either way I'm going to enjoy the creation while I'm here :lol:

 

If there isn't the slightest of idea of God's incentive, why is the concept of God so popular?

 

I mean... If one of the purposes of religion is to explain the things we do not know (such as how we came to be), how comes it's popular even though the explenation is 'lacking'?

 

Because back in the day, there were no explanations for anything, and a lot of people needed something to believe in. They needed someway to explain it all, and this was their solution. Through the years, they just passed it along to their children, and it's still passed down through the generations, however in this day, more people are starting to question it instead of just believing blindly.

Couldn't have said it better :razz:

The concept of God(s) goes back thousands of years. It's only in the last few hundred (or so, could be VERY off) that science made a major push in explaining things (Or at least the things that were considered the product of a God... Not like the periodic table is going to offend a religious person anyway).

The biggest limit of many of today's religions is that they refuse to adapt to a changing world. Of course, there are bound to be some areas that are still relevant, because many stories were written with the intent to teach something universal (Ex: boy who cried wolf).

from

http://forum.tip.it/topic/260057-reflection-on-atheists-vs-theists-in-modern-times/

 

I asked for it to be removed (ty steve). There's already a discussion on the existence of god in this thread and I didn't want this thread to replicate that.

Lets have two separate topics, one for discussing which side is more annoying and one for discussing the existence of god? sounds epic.

 

Atheists don't admit they can't disprove gods.

Yes we do admit we can't disprove gods.

 

Many atheists believe that there's a scientific reason for every single thing - disregarding the need for faith in a deity.

Obviously there is no need for faith in a deity?