Returning lost dung rewards

[Riemis]

No it wouldn't. Other buyable items aren't meant to be purely skill-obtained the way DG items are. There's is nothing wrong in changing Dungeoneering rewards to a system that it should have adopted in the first place.

 

But currently it is a unique system that could work out fine, it is just a little broken :s

Looks like it has calmed down here, good less hatin' and more normal discussions for everyone.

 

On the subject of more tokens less xp dungeon: there should be some penalty, or else no-one would enter the normal dungeons any more.

[Sir_Squab]

You bought an item, not an ability.

You earned an ability, not an item.

The item is the chaotic item, the ability is the ability to wield it.

If you earned the item, you should not have to spend tokens.

 

Also, my last message to morningrise:

 

Like I said, a chaotic item is an item, if you die while having on you still have the ability to wield one (if you have the other skills, of course)

Lost it? Big whoop, go get 2m dung xp and don't die again. Like I said (again) if you lose your precious divine, big whoop, go make enough money to buy one again. The only difference is the way the currency is obtained, and since you since the only thing we can use to compare the two currencies is time, we can come to a rough estimate of 750gp/token. Want more numbers? An onyx costs 14,8m gp or 2,7m tokkul. If we use this to get the tokkul/gp ratio, we get 0,18 tokkul/gp, wich we can use to get the token/tokkul ratio, wich is about 136,8 tokkul/token. See where I'm aiming at? You can compare currencies, and so you can compare the effort put in to getting them. 5m gp/hr? 6667 tokens/hr? Why would one have a cheap-return system? So you only have to put half the effort needed in it, while the other still need full effort? And did I forget to mention that you still have the ability to wield your chaotic weapon after you lose it? If you lose the weapon, you lose the weapon and weapon only.

"But you need to get 2m xp all over again! I have trained so hard to be able to wield that weapon, and now I need to do it again! I earned the skill lvl to own that weapon!"

Yeah right, I earned enough money for a santa hat but lost it, back for half price? No way.

Go hug your CLS before you lose it. Oh wait, you don't even have 80 dung yet, you can't possible know the value of having 80 dungeoneering!

Fun fact: to get a full Brobes set at the same speed as a chaotic weapon, one should win 196 fog matches in 10 minutes each, without losing a single time.

 

I'm calling BS on that. I think I've done enough Dungeoneering and FoG to realize I could get a Battle Robe Set MUCH faster then a Chaotic weapon.

 

And while we're at it, why won't we implent cheaper void, cw armour, fighter torsos, naval, etc. because you already bought it before?

People should just learn that there are risks, and if they die and not get back in time there are consequences :/

 

Everything you listed comes from an activity, not a skill. Chaotic weapons are the best weapons in the game for almost every situation. The items you listed are not. Aside from the two highest tier CW armors (which are useful only in CW, mind you, and should not be used anywhere else, unlike chaotic), none of those items (or item sets) take longer than nine hours to get. It takes significantly longer to obtain a chaotic weapon. Even HALVING the price to RE-BUY (that is, you have to spend the initial 20-30 hours to get the weapon) put the weapons ahead of any of those items in time required to re-obtain.

 

It's entirely fair.

 

So the reward seller should be pitiful about you? The poor guy already has enough trouble smuggling those items out of Deamonheim.

If you lose an item worth 50m (I assume people value their chaotic equipment at 50m), you die and lose it, do you think you deserve to get it off the GE for 25m? Nope, you'll just have to earn that 50m back, and that doesn't take longer than nine hours.

 

Chaotic weapons are actually valued at much higher than 50M. Assuming you can make 5M/h, and getting a chaotic weapon takes 30 hours (normal for the average dungeoneer, if a bit low), it's worth at least 150M. And lest I remind you that THIS IS A SKILL? People don't go out their way to get chaotic weapons like they do with activities. It's THE most important part of leveling dungeoneering.

 

Who the hell makes 5m an hour!? Not many people. Sheesh.

[Hajutze]

I think any lost chaotic weapons should magically find its way back to the trader, but at 0 charge. A 2m penalty seems fair to me.

And if you die having a GS on you, the GS should magically go to .. Diango (or a banker ... anyways > ) and you could get it back for a 1-2m penalty. It seems fair.

[Riemis]

I'm calling BS on that. I think I've done enough Dungeoneering and FoG to realize I could get a Battle Robe Set MUCH faster then a Chaotic weapon.

 

The fun fact was about how long a fog match should take if you wanted to get full brobes set in the same time it takes to get a chaotic wapon ;)

[Elf Spice]

I think any lost chaotic weapons should magically find its way back to the trader, but at 0 charge. A 2m penalty seems fair to me.

And if you die having a GS on you, the GS should magically go to .. Diango (or a banker ... anyways > ) and you could get it back for a 1-2m penalty. It seems fair.

 

We're comparing godswords with chaotic weapons now? I'm not even going to bother arguing against your inane reply :rolleyes:

[ghjkl]

You can't lose a gs unless you bring 4 spirit shields or dfs. You can lose a rapier using regular gear. Its funny how people use obby shield or glory to protect their rapier when boss hunting, and that's pretty stupid of jagex to make it that way.

[Hajutze]

I think any lost chaotic weapons should magically find its way back to the trader, but at 0 charge. A 2m penalty seems fair to me.

And if you die having a GS on you, the GS should magically go to .. Diango (or a banker ... anyways > ) and you could get it back for a 1-2m penalty. It seems fair.

We're comparing godswords with chaotic weapons now? I'm not even going to bother arguing against your inane reply :rolleyes:

A hit with the Chaotic Rapier costs 133.3 gp which is ridiculously low. Without the 200k to buy a Chaotic weapon they would be insanely broken. IF the recharge was 20m (at least) then buying it from the Trader would be a good idea. But at 2m, that's just [development delayed].

[stonewall337]

You bought an item, not an ability.

You earned an ability, not an item.

The item is the chaotic item, the ability is the ability to wield it.

If you earned the item, you should not have to spend tokens.

 

Also, my last message to morningrise:

 

Like I said, a chaotic item is an item, if you die while having on you still have the ability to wield one (if you have the other skills, of course)

Lost it? Big whoop, go get 2m dung xp and don't die again. Like I said (again) if you lose your precious divine, big whoop, go make enough money to buy one again. The only difference is the way the currency is obtained, and since you since the only thing we can use to compare the two currencies is time, we can come to a rough estimate of 750gp/token. Want more numbers? An onyx costs 14,8m gp or 2,7m tokkul. If we use this to get the tokkul/gp ratio, we get 0,18 tokkul/gp, wich we can use to get the token/tokkul ratio, wich is about 136,8 tokkul/token. See where I'm aiming at? You can compare currencies, and so you can compare the effort put in to getting them. 5m gp/hr? 6667 tokens/hr? Why would one have a cheap-return system? So you only have to put half the effort needed in it, while the other still need full effort? And did I forget to mention that you still have the ability to wield your chaotic weapon after you lose it? If you lose the weapon, you lose the weapon and weapon only.

"But you need to get 2m xp all over again! I have trained so hard to be able to wield that weapon, and now I need to do it again! I earned the skill lvl to own that weapon!"

Yeah right, I earned enough money for a santa hat but lost it, back for half price? No way.

Go hug your CLS before you lose it. Oh wait, you don't even have 80 dung yet, you can't possible know the value of having 80 dungeoneering!

Fun fact: to get a full Brobes set at the same speed as a chaotic weapon, one should win 196 fog matches in 10 minutes each, without losing a single time.

 

I'm calling BS on that. I think I've done enough Dungeoneering and FoG to realize I could get a Battle Robe Set MUCH faster then a Chaotic weapon.

 

And while we're at it, why won't we implent cheaper void, cw armour, fighter torsos, naval, etc. because you already bought it before?

People should just learn that there are risks, and if they die and not get back in time there are consequences :/

 

Everything you listed comes from an activity, not a skill. Chaotic weapons are the best weapons in the game for almost every situation. The items you listed are not. Aside from the two highest tier CW armors (which are useful only in CW, mind you, and should not be used anywhere else, unlike chaotic), none of those items (or item sets) take longer than nine hours to get. It takes significantly longer to obtain a chaotic weapon. Even HALVING the price to RE-BUY (that is, you have to spend the initial 20-30 hours to get the weapon) put the weapons ahead of any of those items in time required to re-obtain.

 

It's entirely fair.

 

So the reward seller should be pitiful about you? The poor guy already has enough trouble smuggling those items out of Deamonheim.

If you lose an item worth 50m (I assume people value their chaotic equipment at 50m), you die and lose it, do you think you deserve to get it off the GE for 25m? Nope, you'll just have to earn that 50m back, and that doesn't take longer than nine hours.

 

Chaotic weapons are actually valued at much higher than 50M. Assuming you can make 5M/h, and getting a chaotic weapon takes 30 hours (normal for the average dungeoneer, if a bit low), it's worth at least 150M. And lest I remind you that THIS IS A SKILL? People don't go out their way to get chaotic weapons like they do with activities. It's THE most important part of leveling dungeoneering.

 

Who the hell makes 5m an hour!? Not many people. Sheesh.

 

Everyone who can efficiently use a chaotic weapon should be able to. Its just that most 'scapers are either too dumb, or too lazy to MH efficiently.

[Sir_Kurity]

You bought an item, not an ability.

 

That item just happens to be the ONLY reward from the skill.

 

The item is the chaotic item, the ability is the ability to wield it.

If you earned the item, you should not have to spend tokens.

 

You might have a point if it didnt require at least 82 dungeoneering to actually buy the weapon...

 

If you could say, buy the weapon at level 40, and the ability to weild it was at level 80, you might have some sort of point as to the ability to weild it being a reward. But at this point, BUYING the item is the ability, because you can typically weild it far before you actually have the ability to buy it.

 

THIS is a SKILL.

 

In a skill, you do not suddenly lose all your work up to level 80 simply by dieing with a weapon.

 

You don't see me losing the ability to cast ancients if i die with it, and then having to gain another 3 mill mage XP just to recast it again. No, that would be frikin stupid. In the same way that chaotic weapons, and all your work up to level 80, being lost upon death and unreobtainable unless you gain another 2 mill dungeoneering XP is stupid.

 

So after losing your chaotic weapon, all you have to show for your 80 dungeoneering is a few resource dungeons, hardly adequate for the effort put into the skill.

[Mecakoto]

Everyone who can efficiently use a chaotic weapon should be able to. Its just that most 'scapers are either too dumb, or too lazy to MH efficiently.

 

I'm only joining in on this pointless argument to say this:

 

Your figures can't be validated by even yourself. Your information is based on that of others, which is far, far less valid then even if you were the initial source of information. So, enlighten us. What are we doing so wrong that we can be making 2x as much as we are now.

[stonewall337]

Everyone who can efficiently use a chaotic weapon should be able to. Its just that most 'scapers are either too dumb, or too lazy to MH efficiently.

 

I'm only joining in on this pointless argument to say this:

 

Your figures can't be validated by even yourself. Your information is based on that of others, which is far, far less valid then even if you were the initial source of information. So, enlighten us. What are we doing so wrong that we can be making 2x as much as we are now.

Maybe if you had high enough prayer, and summoning, and mage, you'd be able to. I said you SHOULD be able to, EG most scapers would have had high enough stats, and know well enough how to make good gp/hp if they had trained efficiently.

 

The point is, tokens are tied DIRECTLY to XP. There is no way to get more tokens for less xp. As a result, outside of ranks and higher floors (Which aren't much of a reward) losing a chaotic weapon will cost you gaining another 2m DG XP.

[Mecakoto]

Everyone who can efficiently use a chaotic weapon should be able to. Its just that most 'scapers are either too dumb, or too lazy to MH efficiently.

 

I'm only joining in on this pointless argument to say this:

 

Your figures can't be validated by even yourself. Your information is based on that of others, which is far, far less valid then even if you were the initial source of information. So, enlighten us. What are we doing so wrong that we can be making 2x as much as we are now.

Maybe if you had high enough prayer...

 

The point is, tokens are tied DIRECTLY to XP. There is no way to get more tokens for less xp. As a result, outside of ranks and higher floors (Which aren't much of a reward) losing a chaotic weapon will cost you gaining another 2m DG XP.

 

Either answer my question or don't respond. I can just as easily turn it around and say "if you had a chaotic weapon." I desided to choose the higher road.

[stonewall337]

Everyone who can efficiently use a chaotic weapon should be able to. Its just that most 'scapers are either too dumb, or too lazy to MH efficiently.

 

I'm only joining in on this pointless argument to say this:

 

Your figures can't be validated by even yourself. Your information is based on that of others, which is far, far less valid then even if you were the initial source of information. So, enlighten us. What are we doing so wrong that we can be making 2x as much as we are now.

Maybe if you had high enough prayer...

 

The point is, tokens are tied DIRECTLY to XP. There is no way to get more tokens for less xp. As a result, outside of ranks and higher floors (Which aren't much of a reward) losing a chaotic weapon will cost you gaining another 2m DG XP.

 

Either answer my question or don't respond. I can just as easily turn it around and say "if you had a chaotic weapon." I desided to choose the higher road.

 

 

What is your point? Go ahead and say if I had a chaotic weapon, I'm not the one wondering how to make 5m gp/hr...So really, there is no "Higher road" to take.

 

My point was that most 'scapers were dumb and lazy, I don't think any reasonable person would disagree with me. I'm not referencing TIFERS, rather the average 'scaper. (EG, the ones slaying gargs with CLS, DFS etc.)

[Mecakoto]

Everyone who can efficiently use a chaotic weapon should be able to. Its just that most 'scapers are either too dumb, or too lazy to MH efficiently.

 

I'm only joining in on this pointless argument to say this:

 

Your figures can't be validated by even yourself. Your information is based on that of others, which is far, far less valid then even if you were the initial source of information. So, enlighten us. What are we doing so wrong that we can be making 2x as much as we are now.

Maybe if you had high enough prayer...

 

The point is, tokens are tied DIRECTLY to XP. There is no way to get more tokens for less xp. As a result, outside of ranks and higher floors (Which aren't much of a reward) losing a chaotic weapon will cost you gaining another 2m DG XP.

 

Either answer my question or don't respond. I can just as easily turn it around and say "if you had a chaotic weapon." I desided to choose the higher road.

 

 

What is your point? Go ahead and say if I had a chaotic weapon, I'm not the one wondering how to make 5m gp/hr...So really, there is no "Higher road" to take.

 

My point was that most 'scapers were dumb and lazy, I don't think any reasonable person would disagree with me. I'm not referencing TIFERS, rather the average 'scaper. (EG, the ones slaying gargs with CLS, DFS etc.)

 

My point is as follows: You said that "Everyone who can efficiently use a chaotic weapon should be able to. Its just that most 'scapers are either too dumb, or too lazy to MH efficiently." as a response to someone saying that 5 million an hour is a bit much. I am simply asking what method can reach those numbers, and what most chaotic weapon owners are doing wrong.

 

Now, either cease responding to me, or provide evidence. Every post you've made as a response has been dodging around the first question of my first post.

[stonewall337]

Everyone who can efficiently use a chaotic weapon should be able to. Its just that most 'scapers are either too dumb, or too lazy to MH efficiently.

 

I'm only joining in on this pointless argument to say this:

 

Your figures can't be validated by even yourself. Your information is based on that of others, which is far, far less valid then even if you were the initial source of information. So, enlighten us. What are we doing so wrong that we can be making 2x as much as we are now.

Maybe if you had high enough prayer...

 

The point is, tokens are tied DIRECTLY to XP. There is no way to get more tokens for less xp. As a result, outside of ranks and higher floors (Which aren't much of a reward) losing a chaotic weapon will cost you gaining another 2m DG XP.

 

Either answer my question or don't respond. I can just as easily turn it around and say "if you had a chaotic weapon." I desided to choose the higher road.

 

 

What is your point? Go ahead and say if I had a chaotic weapon, I'm not the one wondering how to make 5m gp/hr...So really, there is no "Higher road" to take.

 

My point was that most 'scapers were dumb and lazy, I don't think any reasonable person would disagree with me. I'm not referencing TIFERS, rather the average 'scaper. (EG, the ones slaying gargs with CLS, DFS etc.)

 

My point is as follows: You said that "Everyone who can efficiently use a chaotic weapon should be able to. Its just that most 'scapers are either too dumb, or too lazy to MH efficiently." as a response to someone saying that 5 million an hour is a bit much. I am simply asking what method can reach those numbers, and what most chaotic weapon owners are doing wrong.

 

Now, either cease responding to me, or provide evidence. Every post you've made as a response has been dodging around the first question of my first post.

 

 

1.) Key word is SHOULD. Part of that SHOULD includes knowing what to do. As such, you don't meet that criteria.

 

2.) Again, SHOULD. If you are MH'ing efficiently, you have the best gear and stats, and you trained that way. Most 'scapers don't train smart.

 

3.) You SHOULDN'T be do dumb ass stuff like 5 manning bandos, duo TDs, etc.

 

4.) TDs with steel titan averages over 5m GP hour, Armadyl was around 7m before hilt crashed, however its still quite a good method. DKS Multibrid is 4.5m gp/hr off task, more on task or with a cannon. There are other ways, Bandos solo is around 4m gp/hr, etc etc.

 

5m Gp/hr is not a bit much for someone who is efficient, and knows what they are doing. If you can efficiently train dungoneering, you SHOULD be able, and hopefully willing, to train other skills efficiently. However, since your average scaper is an idiot, they DON'T, thus rending the common opinion that anything above 1m gp/hr is OMFG AMAZING.

[Mecakoto]

1.) Key word is SHOULD. Part of that SHOULD includes knowing what to do. As such, you don't meet that criteria.

 

2.) Again, SHOULD. If you are MH'ing efficiently, you have the best gear and stats, and you trained that way. Most 'scapers don't train smart.

 

3.) You SHOULDN'T be do dumb ass stuff like 5 manning bandos, duo TDs, etc.

 

4.) TDs with steel titan averages over 5m GP hour, Armadyl was around 7m before hilt crashed, however its still quite a good method. DKS Multibrid is 4.5m gp/hr off task, more on task or with a cannon. There are other ways, Bandos solo is around 4m gp/hr, etc etc.

 

5m Gp/hr is not a bit much for someone who is efficient, and knows what they are doing. If you can efficiently train dungoneering, you SHOULD be able, and hopefully willing, to train other skills efficiently. However, since your average scaper is an idiot, they DON'T, thus rending the common opinion that anything above 1m gp/hr is OMFG AMAZING.

 

1 is irrelevent to my question, as is 2 and 3. With 4, I've seen the figures from countless people countless times. You're inflating your numbers again. That is only the base amount per hour without factoring in time to get to any of the meantioned (and killcount for Arma/Bandos), cost of supplies, time to find a world (DKS, Bandos), and other, less important criteria, which lowers those figures considerably.

 

Your evidence is unsatisfactory.

 

And the average 'scaper isn't an idiot. The average 'scaper is someone who plays purely for fun. That has no relevence, but, since you posted 3 irrelevent statements, I figured I'd get one.

[ghjkl]

Frost drags are 3.5-4m an hour if you include visage being 1 in 5k.

[Obtaurian]

1.) Key word is SHOULD. Part of that SHOULD includes knowing what to do. As such, you don't meet that criteria.

 

2.) Again, SHOULD. If you are MH'ing efficiently, you have the best gear and stats, and you trained that way. Most 'scapers don't train smart.

 

3.) You SHOULDN'T be do dumb ass stuff like 5 manning bandos, duo TDs, etc.

 

4.) TDs with steel titan averages over 5m GP hour, Armadyl was around 7m before hilt crashed, however its still quite a good method. DKS Multibrid is 4.5m gp/hr off task, more on task or with a cannon. There are other ways, Bandos solo is around 4m gp/hr, etc etc.

 

5m Gp/hr is not a bit much for someone who is efficient, and knows what they are doing. If you can efficiently train dungoneering, you SHOULD be able, and hopefully willing, to train other skills efficiently. However, since your average scaper is an idiot, they DON'T, thus rending the common opinion that anything above 1m gp/hr is OMFG AMAZING.

 

1 is irrelevent to my question, as is 2 and 3. With 4, I've seen the figures from countless people countless times. You're inflating your numbers again. That is only the base amount per hour without factoring in time to get to any of the meantioned (and killcount for Arma/Bandos), cost of supplies, time to find a world (DKS, Bandos), and other, less important criteria, which lowers those figures considerably.

 

Your evidence is unsatisfactory.

 

And the average 'scaper isn't an idiot. The average 'scaper is someone who plays purely for fun. That has no relevence, but, since you posted 3 irrelevent statements, I figured I'd get one.

 

Are you kidding me? All of those figures are FINAL values. Go look at the crashing thread where there's PLENTY of discussion about this. What's your point anyway? A high-level player CAN make up to 5M/h with decent gear. Just because you don't know how to do it (which would be [developmentally delayed]ed, as Stonewall just told you), doesn't mean it can't be done.

 

But, again, what are you going on about? Do you have a point to your argument, are did you just want to point out that the average 'scaper makes less than 5M/h?

[Mecakoto]

Try not flaming me when you bust into a conversation you never were a part of, and actually reading the posts within, before posting again to something you were not a part of MorningRise.

 

I don't know what's worse: The Elitist that play this game competitively and think it matters, or all the trolls that seem to find their way into every cornor of the game. Either way, if we had less of the former and none of the latter, the community might be classed as "not bad" for once.

[Obtaurian]

Try not flaming me when you bust into a conversation you never were a part of, and actually reading the posts within, before posting again to something you were not a part of MorningRise.

 

I don't know what's worse: The Elitist that play this game competitively and think it matters, or all the trolls that seem to find their way into every cornor of the game. Either way, if we had less of the former and none of the latter, the community might be classed as "not bad" for once.

 

If you wanted a private discussion, you would've PM'd Stonewall. FYI, debates typically move a little more smoothly if you actually argue. I see no argument here. Does that mean you know you're wrong about how much someone can potentially make an hour? And, again, what are you trying to prove anyway?

 

EDIT: Interestingly enough, my original post was harsh, but I did not flame you. You, however, did respond by flaming me. :rolleyes:

[stonewall337]

Try not flaming me when you bust into a conversation you never were a part of, and actually reading the posts within, before posting again to something you were not a part of MorningRise.

 

I don't know what's worse: The Elitist that play this game competitively and think it matters, or all the trolls that seem to find their way into every cornor of the game. Either way, if we had less of the former and none of the latter, the community might be classed as "not bad" for once.

 

 

Conversely, if fewer idiots played this game, efficient players could get more done.

[Tim]

I'm pretty sure on the order of 30-50M would be reasonable and also a huge money sink

Then no one would buy them, especially since the recharge cost would be even more.

[stonewall337]

I'm pretty sure on the order of 30-50M would be reasonable and also a huge money sink

Then no one would buy them, especially since the recharge cost would be even more.

I'd pay 100m in a second.

[i_trollz_u]

who cares about Mhing? The last PvP needs is noobs bringing chaotic longswords into fights. As if claws and Ags didn't already make pking as messed up as it is now.

[Zaaps1]

who cares about Mhing? The last PvP needs is noobs bringing chaotic longswords into fights. As if claws and Ags didn't already make pking as messed up as it is now.

 

Chaotic Longsword is terrible in PvP, the Maul is really the biggest concern.

 

And you already have people using that in BH +1 worlds.