Returning lost dung rewards

[Obtaurian]

Ok look, you aren't drawing parallel comparisons here.

 

You need to draw parallel comparisons, otherwise your argument s invalid.

 

And to your first point, that was honestly the first thing I addressed...

 

Its not paralell because your analogy was flawed. Dung rewards for gaining xp are directly put into one item. That's the only difference from skills like rc or mining, where all the money you earned can or cannot be directly put into one item. But the fact remains that if you lost the one item you put all your xp into, you can say "zomg my xp gained was useless". The equivalent to losing your CLS can happen if you trained any other skill and lost all the money you gained from training that skill. Dung isn't unique in that. In fact dung is even more like other skills because the currency you earn while training it could also be spent on usefull things other than a really powerful wep.

 

Not that it even matters if its like other skills.

 

Perhaps a better comparison would be, if you lose your adze, you do not lose 6M firemaking exp, you just have to go get another adze. It's not that simple with chaotic weapons. You actually LOSE your 2M exp when you lose the weapon.

 

 

Now it's getting kind of repetive, please read above.

 

It got repetitive the moment you started up an argument that literally just ended between myself/Zaaps/Stone and another guy. You cannot deny that losing an adze and losing a CLS are similar, except that losing a CLS essentially means that you lost the experience that you "invested" into it. Getting your adze back is a simple matter of redoing the beacon activity, which isn't difficult. You do not lose your ability to do the activity until you get another 6M exp.

[i_trollz_u]

Ok look, you can't compare the CLS reward to rewards like runite ore or blood runes.

 

You use xp to get a CLS whereas rune ore and bloods get you xp.

 

Two different things. If you want to make a comparison, you need to use an ability that xp achieves. For example, the ability to mine rune, instead of the rune itself.

 

You kidding me? This is the perfect comparison. Dung tokens =/= xp. You could probably go from 10-40 dung opening resource dungeons and doing genire lamps lol (kind of beside the point). Tokens are the reward for gaining xp in dung, just as runes and rune ore is the xp from getting xp in runecrafting and mining. Tokens aren't an ability. Your dung lvl is your ability. Which is why saying you lose your xp and ability is kind of silly. The CLS is the reward, just as whatever you do with your runes/ore is your reward.

[i_trollz_u]

Ok look, you aren't drawing parallel comparisons here.

 

You need to draw parallel comparisons, otherwise your argument s invalid.

 

And to your first point, that was honestly the first thing I addressed...

 

Its not paralell because your analogy was flawed. Dung rewards for gaining xp are directly put into one item. That's the only difference from skills like rc or mining, where all the money you earned can or cannot be directly put into one item. But the fact remains that if you lost the one item you put all your xp into, you can say "zomg my xp gained was useless". The equivalent to losing your CLS can happen if you trained any other skill and lost all the money you gained from training that skill. Dung isn't unique in that. In fact dung is even more like other skills because the currency you earn while training it could also be spent on usefull things other than a really powerful wep.

 

Not that it even matters if its like other skills.

 

Perhaps a better comparison would be, if you lose your adze, you do not lose 6M firemaking exp, you just have to go get another adze. It's not that simple with chaotic weapons. You actually LOSE your 2M exp when you lose the weapon.

 

 

Now it's getting kind of repetive, please read above.

 

It got repetitive the moment you started up an argument that literally just ended between myself/Zaaps/Stone and another guy. You cannot deny that losing an adze and losing a CLS are similar, except that losing a CLS essentially means that you lost the experience that you "invested" into it. Getting your adze back is a simple matter of redoing the beacon activity, which isn't difficult. You do not lose your ability to do the activity until you get another 6M exp.

 

Simple solution to prove this. Log onto your rs account. Open the skills tab. Scroll over dung lvl. Does it still say you have 2m+ xp there after you lose your cls? You didn't invest your xp. You invested your reward for gaining the xp.

[Zaaps1]

Dung tokens =/= xp

 

ah,so we've found The problem at last.

 

You can't be serious? Especially when three people have proved that it is muliple times on this thread? That's ignorance, my apologies if I offend.

[Obtaurian]

Simple solution to prove this. Log onto your rs account. Open the skills tab. Scroll over dung lvl. Does it still say you have 2m+ xp there after you lose your cls? You didn't invest your xp. You invested your reward for gaining the xp.

 

Go reread the last three pages of discussion. All of your arguments have been rebutted multiple times in multiple ways by multiple people. You're just trolling now.

[i_trollz_u]

Dung tokens =/= xp

 

ah,so we've found The problem at last.

 

You can't be serious? Especially when three people have proved that it is muliple times on this thread? That's ignorance, my apologies if I offend.

 

Just because tokens directly correlate with xp doesn't mean tokens are xp. Thats about your only argument. The amount of bloods you craft directly correlates with the xp you get. What you choose to do with your blood runes is the same as what you choose to do with your tokens. You can sell your runes and spend your reward on a giant sword that costs 100m+ and lose it. Thats your choice. Just as you can spend 200k tokens a medium sized but still really powerful sword and lose it. Functionally the same.

 

I still yet to see a single reason why requireing you to spend more time on dung is an unfair cost to re-obtaining your CLS that don't involve inaccurate analogies.

[Zaaps1]

Read more than 1-2 pages back please :)

[i_trollz_u]

Read more than 1-2 pages back please :)

 

Too lazy, going to bed.

[Zaaps1]

Have a good night. :)

 

But really, that was not the only argument made. I know you are smart enough to find them. Hopefully tomorrow you won't be tired and we can get a debate that doesn't go in circles. You have good reasoning, so I know progress can be made.

[PereGrin]

Dung tokens =/= xp

 

ah,so we've found The problem at last.

 

You can't be serious? Especially when three people have proved that it is muliple times on this thread? That's ignorance, my apologies if I offend.

 

Just because tokens directly correlate with xp doesn't mean tokens are xp. Thats about your only argument. The amount of bloods you craft directly correlates with the xp you get. What you choose to do with your blood runes is the same as what you choose to do with your tokens. You can sell your runes and spend your reward on a giant sword that costs 100m+ and lose it. Thats your choice. Just as you can spend 200k tokens a medium sized but still really powerful sword and lose it. Functionally the same.

 

I still yet to see a single reason why requireing you to spend more time on dung is an unfair cost to re-obtaining your CLS that don't involve inaccurate analogies.

When you can find a way to earn tokens without earning dungeon xp, then what you say might become the case. There are many many many many ways I can earn rather large sums of cash without gaining any more experience then I already have. Cash is easy to come by, but xp is not.

 

You MUST gain xp to re-obtain lost chaotic weapons.

 

The most profitable money making method does not require any xp at all, and barely even requires you to be logged on.

 

Being forced to gain xp to access a part of the game that you previously unlocked and subsequently lost is just silliness.

 

That would be like buying a skill cape required 13m xp, and you could not buy another one till 26m xp.

 

This is the same problem that the bonecrusher has, it requires 6.8x the xp to buy it then it does to use it. Why should the 2nd CLS you buy cost 400k tokens, when the first only cost 200k tokens? Before I laugh at you for saying the 2nd CLS only costs 200k tokens, please remember that in order to do anything for the 2nd time, you must have done it once already, therefore you must have bought a CLS for 200k tokens already. So, in order to buy a 2nd CLS, you must spend 400k tokens. And 2 CLS's does not increase you offensive capabilities, you can only wield one, so you can only gain the benefit of the first 2m xp you earned, not the full 4m xp. Why should you acutally have to gain 4m xp to get something that you already had?

[xSxqPowerx]

Yeah... not going to get into this, however, I think that it would be fair enough if the cost of re-obtaining a dungeoneering reward was halved. Still deters people from using them places they would die, but isn't totally the end of the world when you lose it.

[Blutters]

Either way they should have implemented this from the start... Idk why jagex is making people earn 2M xp repeatedly just cause people are idiots and risk chaotic for no good reason

 

My original suggestion was just to spend DG tokens to buy the ability to use an item and then pay money/tokens combo to buy the actual item. I'm pretty sure on the order of 30-50M would be reasonable and also a huge money sink

I'd just like to be honest and say I probably wouldn't have bothered if I had to spend 40 hours getting the ability to get a Cmaul and then had to turn around and pay 50m for it.

On the other hand if 30-50m were simply the replacement price, but you still got the first one exclusively for your 200k tokens, I'd be fine with that.

 

_______

 

 

I'd like to add to the whole "Circular argument" I seem to see above - Just because this is LIKE other situations doesn't mean the STAKES are the SAME. Having to spend tens of hours replacing an item (which CANNOT be gained through luck) isn't about the difficulty of the game or risk vs reward or anything of the sort. It's about masochistic torment.

(Just FYI I enjoyed the first half of my DG journey. After that it wasn't much fun. There will always be people who genuinely enjoy things, of course.)

Oh also, losing an item meant for combat in combat is different than losing an item (IE discontinued or cosmetic) in combat that wasn't meant to be there in the first place. There's probably more to add to this but it is seriously late(early) here so maybe tomorrow(later today)...

 

It really just comes down to you being a jaded jackass if you want someone to pay so much for some small mistake, and you justify this by saying "That's the way things are!"

[IHasChicken]

Either way they should have implemented this from the start... Idk why jagex is making people earn 2M xp repeatedly just cause people are idiots and risk chaotic for no good reason

 

My original suggestion was just to spend DG tokens to buy the ability to use an item and then pay money/tokens combo to buy the actual item. I'm pretty sure on the order of 30-50M would be reasonable and also a huge money sink

I'd just like to be honest and say I probably wouldn't have bothered if I had to spend 40 hours getting the ability to get a Cmaul and then had to turn around and pay 50m for it.

On the other hand if 30-50m were simply the replacement price, but you still got the first one exclusively for your 200k tokens, I'd be fine with that.

 

_______

 

 

I'd like to add to the whole "Circular argument" I seem to see above - Just because this is LIKE other situations doesn't mean the STAKES are the SAME. Having to spend tens of hours replacing an item (which CANNOT be gained through luck) isn't about the difficulty of the game or risk vs reward or anything of the sort. It's about masochistic torment.

(Just FYI I enjoyed the first half of my DG journey. After that it wasn't much fun. There will always be people who genuinely enjoy things, of course.)

Oh also, losing an item meant for combat in combat is different than losing an item (IE discontinued or cosmetic) in combat that wasn't meant to be there in the first place. There's probably more to add to this but it is seriously late(early) here so maybe tomorrow(later today)...

 

It really just comes down to you being a jaded jackass if you want someone to pay so much for some small mistake, and you justify this by saying "That's the way things are!"

 

Lol

 

"Whoops, I slipped and fell and while I was slipping I hit my mouse so it hit the log-out button and then I continued slipping and typed my username and password and then logged into a pvp world and lost my RED PHAT!"

 

I doubt anyone could ACCIDENTALLY lose a rare, unless they were a level 3 skiller, or was intentionally slaying/bosshunting/pvp'ing in one, in which case they have to know and understand the risk.

[Tim]

I'm pretty sure on the order of 30-50M would be reasonable and also a huge money sink

Then no one would buy them, especially since the recharge cost would be even more.

I'd pay 100m in a second.

you also have a [bleep]load of money to simply "toss around" compared to the average player. Point of the game is to enjoy it and have fun, not grind our life away, just to be on par-comparison with your "requirements" to be called a good player and on par to other 138's. Not to sound like im attacking you, but you it to be true.

[Hajutze]

A compromise ? With the 200k tokens you'd buy the ability to WIELD and BUY the Chaotic Weapon after which you can buy it for (put an certain amount of gold in here ... 30-40m ?) from the Trader and the recharge would still be at 2m. In other words even if you lose it you can buy it again without wasting time in the dungeons.

[Assume Nothing]

Overuse of Fallacies, misinterpretations and invalid arguments makes a very heated thread.

 

I believe JaGex should just buff up the Alchemy Values of Chaotic Weapons, close to that of PvP weapons. It takes many hours to obtain, and have high end stats. What's with the 100k alch value?

[stonewall337]

Ok look, you can't compare the CLS reward to rewards like runite ore or blood runes.

 

You use xp to get a CLS whereas rune ore and bloods get you xp.

 

Two different things. If you want to make a comparison, you need to use an ability that xp achieves. For example, the ability to mine rune, instead of the rune itself.

 

You kidding me? This is the perfect comparison. Dung tokens =/= xp. You could probably go from 10-40 dung opening resource dungeons and doing genire lamps lol (kind of beside the point). Tokens are the reward for gaining xp in dung, just as runes and rune ore is the xp from getting xp in runecrafting and mining. Tokens aren't an ability. Your dung lvl is your ability. Which is why saying you lose your xp and ability is kind of silly. The CLS is the reward, just as whatever you do with your runes/ore is your reward.

 

 

All toads are frogs, not all frogs are toads. You CAN get DG xp without getting tokens, you CAN NOT get DG tokens without getting xp. See my point? Once I get 92 FM, I can get another adze when I lose mine simply by spending 20 minutes on an activity. I don't need to earn 600k Firemaking tokens to be able to buy another adze.

 

Sure, you unlocked the ability to wield chaotic weapons, but without a chaotic weapon to wield, that is rather moot.

[stonewall337]

I'm pretty sure on the order of 30-50M would be reasonable and also a huge money sink

Then no one would buy them, especially since the recharge cost would be even more.

I'd pay 100m in a second.

you also have a [bleep]load of money to simply "toss around" compared to the average player. Point of the game is to enjoy it and have fun, not grind our life away, just to be on par-comparison with your "requirements" to be called a good player and on par to other 138's. Not to sound like im attacking you, but you it to be true.

And maybe if you were efficient???

 

Tired of the "Divine prod" and "Lvl 138 no life" or "rich person no life"

 

Maybe if people played smarter they'd be "better off" in the game.

 

Oh wait, you are ranked in 3 skills. THREE.

[Zaaps1]

Easy, everyone, personal attacks are far less effective.

 

A compromise ? With the 200k tokens you'd buy the ability to WIELD and BUY the Chaotic Weapon after which you can buy it for (put an certain amount of gold in here ... 30-40m ?) from the Trader and the recharge would still be at 2m. In other words even if you lose it you can buy it again without wasting time in the dungeons.

 

It's a good idea, but there's still one problem:

 

The fact that you can't enjoy every reward you've so-called "unlocked". For example, if you were 80 Dungeoneering, you could buy a CLS but then forfeit an Arcane Stream. That isn't right.

 

I think it's better to set "milestones" on the tokens. When you hit a milestone, you unlock the ability to wield and buy it. This keeps Jagex's purpose of preventing indirect training intact, while at the same time making it so you don't lose XP when you lose a Dungeoneering prize.

 

So for example, when you hit 200k tokens, you earn the ability to buy every reward up to that point, except you can only buy one Chaotic weapon/shield at a time (since they are all grouped in one reward catagory, you can buy a second when you hit the 400k token milestone, a third after 600k, etc.)

[Huzzah]

How about you don't bring more then you can lose? The fact that you think it should be returned if you die doing something silly is insane. It is NOT an ability. Its a weapon, just like any other sword. You just use tokens to buy it instead of gp. You do realise you need to spend time making the gp too, right? And if you lose your blue phat, nobodys giving you a 50% discount because you had one before. Also seeing how the chaotic weapons are so powerful if people could just get them back super easy wouldn't it destroy pvp for those whom don't have one?

 

Side note: You don't lose dung exp when you die with a reward, you lose the reward just like you would most other d&d, minigame or anything you may have on your avatar.

[Zaaps1]

All of your points have been addressed already. Now, I'm not expectong you to read through 6 pages of debate, but the last 2 should give you some of the arguments.

 

I doubt anyone wants to go through this AGAIN, my apologies if I appear lazy or arrogant.

[i_trollz_u]

All of your points have been addressed already. Now, I'm not expectong you to read through 6 pages of debate, but the last 2 should give you some of the arguments.

 

 

Read more than 1-2 pages back please :)

 

You beg to differ.

[Viv]

technically u lose out on rewards when you spend tokens on exp

 

so if u lose your weapon you do lose 200k potential dg exp

 

I would support dgneer rewards being unlocked for 20-30m if you lost them prob more but the current system you have to think of your setup :P

 

you keep your lvl and standing on highscores

 

i wouldnt mind reduced price for gettting em back but spending time in dgs again is fair since it goes to 120...

[Dragonlordjl]

Honestly, for the rewards that you can lose, they need to change the way the token system works. Keep the current token costs the same, but change it where you buy the ability to use each item with tokens instead of the items themselves. After you buy the ability to use the item, you purchase the items with coins. For chaotic weapons, I think 25m is a fair price to pay to replace it. To purchase the chaotic items the first time, it should cost 1/5 of that, or 5m GP. And they would come fully charged when you purchase them.

[Ezz]

Honestly, for the rewards that you can lose, they need to change the way the token system works. Keep the current token costs the same, but change it where you buy the ability to use each item with tokens instead of the items themselves. After you buy the ability to use the item, you purchase the items with coins. For chaotic weapons, I think 25m is a fair price to pay to replace it. To purchase the chaotic items the first time, it should cost 1/5 of that, or 5m GP. And they would come fully charged when you purchase them.

That is a great idea!