Space

[Nexaduro]

Okay, I think I know what one of the problems with your thought process is: FIRST of all, why is your proposed technology useful?

 

Also, don't expect to see me during sessions for a while. Have fun with your alignment-less characters. :thumbup:

[The_Mather1]

Nex, for shooting people with weapons I can carry one-handed.

[Nexaduro]

SECOND of ןןɐ, why is it better than competing technologies?

[The_Mather1]

Because it is more effective against armoured targets.

[Nexaduro]

More effective than what, and why?

[The_Mather1]

It is more effective than meson and anti-proton weaponry because instead of piercing the armour, it creates a small area effect that is not bound by material limits.

[Nexaduro]

Can it pierce shields? Is it a ranged weapon?

[Leiana]

????????? I am not understanding what so ever. Geeze, I'm the weakest AND the dumbest member of the crew......wait, if I'm the dumbest then how come archi hasn't decided to kill me off in like every session? Why, Archi why?

[archimage_a]

Because Britian has the RSPCDA. Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Dumb Animals :rolleyes: (jks)

 

No, the reason I don't kill people off is because I respect people...Being a moderator is a serious responsibility because people are investing large amounts of their time and just going 'hur-hur gonna kill you now' is wrong.

It is more effective than meson and anti-proton weaponry because instead of piercing the armour, it creates a small area effect that is not bound by material limits.

 

How, exactly?

 

Electricity can 'jump' through insulators at really close ranges and really high voltages...but to turn that into a weapon which was both effective and useful you would be doing alot of work...and it could still be defeated by slightly thicker rubber soles.

 

 

 

I really have no idea what you are talking about...Tesla used a coil to generate a magnetic field...and then another coil to convert the magnetic field back into electrical energy. Unless your target is holding a large transformer the threat is minimal.

 

Alternatively you have electrostatic induction, which is supposedly non-dangerous to Humans...Since Tesla would light a room filled with people using a lamp powered by electrostatic induction...So...

 

 

 

 

 

Unless you can explain to me in some other manner(As I have puzzled over Wikipedia and spent about 30 minutes scouring the internet for information) I am going to say that Wireless Energy Transfer does what it says on the tin...It transfers energy wirelessly...It doesn't fire electro-death beams at insulated targets.

 

And Faust is largely right...There is nothing that a 'directed electric field' can do that can't be achieved with a Blitz Array...

I find it highly doubtful that you could even produce a 'Directed Energy Field' since the magnetism/electro-field would be spherical in nature.

[Nexaduro]

Using the Tesla Coil concept, perhaps you could have the magnetic field thingy built into a suit or something and then use a weapon with projectiles capable of converting it to electricity? Might be better than the Blitz if you could get it the same range, since only one projectile would need to impact and it would immediately electrify. Dunno, just brainstorming.

[The_Mather1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_field

 

Imagine this, except with any weapon instead of the rod and a sufficiently low frequency so that the current does damage right away:

 

And to my knowledge, it should be possible to use electromagnets to shape the electrical field.

[archimage_a]

Yeah, this is electrostatics.

Using electromagnets would require a Gauss Gun like set up, and would deviate within milimeters of leaving the barrel...So it would be like firing a really short shotgun with only 1 pellet.

Also it would require the opposing target to be inversely charged...Otherwise the surface would repel the electrostatic energy.

 

 

You are basically trying to build a lightning gun, which would hit the closest inductive target...You would therefore need to shield everything on your side with an inversely charged surface...Which would:

A) Stand out like mushroom cloud over New York City.

B) Leave you highly suspectible to an inversely charged lightning gun.

C) Require a complete overhaul of armours.

D) Would be incompatible with most electronic systems, like shields.

E) Would turn you into a christmas tree for targetting.

[The_Mather1]

I'm not sure if you know, but electrostatics are monopolar, if you bring an object within the range of the coil it will be electrified, without the neccessity of any arcs of lighning, any other pole or even a ground.

 

This vid shows how the top piece, distance, etc. matters and some of the effects:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u4BvaC1nkA

[archimage_a]

I am not sure if you know this but monopoles are yet to be proved to exist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_monopole

 

And electrostatics fields flow from Postive Poles to Negative Poles.

 

And yes, you don't need an arc of lightning...you need an arc of electricity...IE the electricity needs a path from A to B, it doesn't magic itself across.

 

 

This is what I mean about half theories and missing information, you are providing 'Evidence' which you are subjectively editing to support your stance and providing virtually no real information...Like the link to the 'Electric Field' page...it is just a page of fomulas, it doesn't provide any real information on how to apply those formulas in the real world. You are, again going 'Hey, Archi, Rubberstamp this.'

 

 

 

I am yet to see any evidence that this would actually be useful as a weapon...So far I have seen that it can light a lightbulb and create an arc of lightning...Why is this?

Because humans are highly resistive to electricity, lightbulbs are not.

Do you have a competing theory as to why a field that electrifies everything, except things that high resistance...like wood and humans?

 

Therefore you would need an extremely high level of electricity...like Lightning...to cause any damage to a human.

So, therefore, you are creating a lightning gun.

[The_Mather1]

See the first direction he's pointing the lightbulb? Glass first, glass is an insulator, we're a conductor with high resistance.

And tesla coils already work on high voltage, the only reason they don't break whatever they hit is because the pulses last less than 1/1000th of a second because they use spark gap triggers.

[archimage_a]

And your point?

The only reason waves aren't fifty foot tall is that they use gravity. Its a non-statement.

If you used a large Tesla Coil you would make a lightning strike...Its the same basic principle.

 

Glass isn't an insulator, it has a resistance of 10^12...Anything with electrons in can function as a conductor.

 

And you haven't given an alternate theory, you have just pointed out a hole in my knowledge.

I would say that given the low level of resistance, since the current is so low, that the resistance of the glass didn't become a major issue, thus it did not impede the circuit.

[The_Mather1]

But by that same logic, a human receptor would be of less issue, and as it is grounded (well, it likely is) it will pose even less of an issue, making it more succeptible to the induced electrical charge.

I think the human body, from arm to arm has a resistance of around 400MΩ, while according to you, glass has 1TΩ. Say the coil uses a power input of 100V, going through a step-up transformer to 10kV, into the capacitor and through the trigger mechanism (usually spark gap, to only activate at near-maximum charge), through a 5 turn primary coil (10kV/5n = 2) inducing into a secondary coil of 16,000 turns (which is around the standard for a small-mid sized tesla coil) (2*16,000n = 32MV), if we then assume the gun allows for that voltage over its entire range, then a human target would recieve a (32MV/400MΩ = 80mA) 80mA current, (80mA/0.04mA = 2,000) 2,000 times sufficient current to cause immediate heart failure.

 

The trigger could be anything that can handle such a strong current as that which is sent through, most buttons will be welded closed, but it is possible to use parallell transistors to do the trick, as I tried with my coilgun (sadly I burned out the resistors heading to the base (trigger input) in a flash, though it did fire with no damage to the transistors so it proves my point). The base can be hooked up to an alternative powersource, so if it wasn't for the simple solution proposed by my teacher, it would've worked.

 

 

"Hard" science (very simple electronics math), laymans terms and practical examples, convincing enough?

[Leiana]

/me raises her hand

This has nothing to do with whatever Chi is talking about (and Chi you are making no sense whatsoever) but..... CAN I PRETTY PLEASE HAVE A THREE INCH ANDROID?!

[archimage_a]

Did I say that the Human was an insulator also?

It makes no sense if the human was an insulator, as it still needs to complete the circuit.

 

As for the Human/Glass thing...The Glass is 2 or 3 milimeters thick...so 1 TeraOhm is actually 0.003 Teraohms...or 3 GigaOhms.

Humans, by comparison only has a resistance of between 500 and 1,000,000 ohms, per meter...depending on their state(Cleaness decreases resistance)...Now, assume the length of your arm is half a meter...plus most of your body...so we are probably looking at 2.5 meters.

So 2.5 MegaOhms, or 1.25 KiloOhms.

Now, obviously we can see that the glass is far more resistant than a Humans.

 

 

 

 

Now then, your basic analysis:

Ok...Coil has an input of 100V.

Lets say that it is a ideal coil, with an ideal core of 1 centimeter width.

Let us then say that the wire is 1 milimeter thick.

Lets also say that you start with a power supply at 1 amp.

 

So, we step it up, increasing the voltage to 10,000 and decreasing the ampage to 0.01.

 

We then step it up by a factor of 3,200 (Why you stepped it up in two seperate stages is beyond me), so the voltage increases to 32,000,000, and the current decreases to 0.000003125 Amps.

 

We then assume that a human touched the end point(far better than 'magicked into the human').

The lowest recorded ampage of death inducing current is:

0.00001 Amps...Therefore:

0.000003125 Amps is far too small to cause any heartattack or whatever.

 

Burn damage, by voltage, is far more dangerous...According to here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_shock

You need 500 after the following calculation:

(Duration*Voltage^2)/Resistance.

Duration is the second main stumbling block* since you have a single large discharge (as far as I know), not a series.

You would therefore need a duration of between 0.00012 and 0.00000006 (Depending on resistance) to do serious damage, with anything less than that(in game terms at least) causing only superficial damage.

 

 

*The first is targetting, since anything metallic would be considerably more likely to be hit than a human.

 

 

 

So...assuming you had ideal materials, with no energy lost to resistive heating and such: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_transmission#Losses

And assuming you fixed the targetting problem.

And assuming you resolve the problem of silver, the best current, elemental, conductor having a higher resistance than this weapons ampage.

 

Then yeah, I am happy for you to have this weapon.

 

To start working on this weapon you will need to level 10 in Superconductors and level 20 in Ferromagnetics.

 

However, at present I see the weapon as effectively useless, due to the spark gap mechanism**, inability to target proficently, the reliablity of the weapon(Burnouts and whatnot)...with actual 'damage' being caused only at level 10 and above...Even then the risk of the weapon breaking is still 15 in 20, while the chance of hitting the target is only 1 in 20, with actual damage being a 5 in 20 on top of that(so 5 in 400).

 

At level 20 it becomes a more reliable weapon, doing some damage whenever it hits, which is still rarely. Risk of breaking is 5 in 20, chance of hitting is still 1 in 20, but damage is guarenteed.

 

At level 40 it becomes a majorly useful weapon, as a targetting mechanism is finally developed (One of which I cannot fathom). Risk of breaking is effectively 0(at mods disgression), chance of hitting is 1 in 2...same as other weapons, and damage is still guarenteed.

 

And then it is just generally improved upon.

 

Also, given the delicate nature of the weapon, using it to hit people...dropping it...anything like that has the same risk of breakage as firing it.

 

**Personally I have no idea why you have the sparkgap mechanism at all... Some sort of a switch on a preset timer seems like a far better idea...Though burnout, I suppose, is a consideration...

[The_Mather1]

A 1mm wire would have to be several tens of kilometers long to have 100Ω resistance, one would assume the wire would have to be around 25cm, at which point a copper wire would have (0,0175*0,25/1) 4.375mΩ and as such a the current would be (100V/0,004375mΩ) 22.857kA. Then the step up brings it up by 100, giving us a voltage of 10kV and a current of 228.57A, then 3,200, giving us a voltage of 32MV and a current of 7.14mA, still many times lethal current.

[Jehosaphat]

First off, a 1mm wire would have to be several tens of kilometers long to have 100Ω resistance, one would assume the wire would have to be around 25cm, at which point a copper wire would have (0,0175*0,25/1) 4.375mΩ and as such a the current would be (100V/0,004375mΩ) 22.857kA. Then the step up brings it up by 100, giving us a voltage of 10kV and a current of 228.57A, then 3,200, giving us a voltage of 32MV and a current of 7.14mA, still many times lethal current.

Or maybe Archi is trying to keep the tech you're trying to argue over with science from being too over- or under-powered?

[archimage_a]

What on earth are you talking about Mather? I never talked about resistance of the wire.

If you have a 1 centimeter wide core, then the length of the wire would be Pi*Radius^2*number of turns...Which is

3.124*0.5^2 = 0.785

0.785*16,005 = 12,570.3 Centimeters

Ergo, the length of the wire would be 125 meters. (Ignoring the angular cost, since it does not all stay on the same latitude.)

 

Assuming 25 centimeters is like assuming that the reason someone's leg hurts is because a shark bit it off...Great if they lived by a shark infested lake, were missing a leg and were screaming 'A shark took it!'...not so great if their leg is alright except for a small round burn mark and they are saying 'It fell out of the dashboard charger slot...what are you doing with that saw!?'

 

I also said ideal wire, as in wire with 0 resistance...Hence I ignored resistance throughout the entire endevour, or at least until it entered the human.

 

 

 

Anyway, you are incorrectly applying Ohms Law...As we could equally apply it to the Human:

I=V/R

V=32,000,000

R=2,500,000

=12.8 Amps...which is obviously not 0.00714 Amps, as you stated.

The resistance, in fact, would have to be considerably higher for the number of amps you stated to occur.

 

And no, that does not 'prove' it is fatal, because, according to your calculations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt#Definition

We start with:

100 Volts and 228,570 Amps...Which equates to 22,857,000 Watts.

And we end with:

32,000,000 Volts and 0.00714 Amps...Which equates to 228,480 Watts.

If we took 12.8 Amps as the final figure:

32,000,000 Volts and 12.8 Amps...Which equates to 409,600,000 Watts.

Of which, none match.

 

Comparatively:

I start with 100 volts and 1 Amp...Which equates to 100 Watts.

And end I have 32,000,000 Volts and 0.000003125...Which equates to 100 Watts.

 

Ergo, using Ohm's law irresponsibly is irresponsible.

 

*Strings up the 'Archi was right' Banner*

(Over the years it has really paid for itself)

 

Now, given that I spent around 3 hours on this, and you seem to have spent 3 minutes on this...Can you see why 'hard science' isn't good for the moderator? It essentially requires the moderator to completely ignore the player's calculation, using only their starting point as referance, and then explore all the various factors...Post...Wait for the player to post 'While I conceed that the number should be lower, I still believe that you have made a mistake, and therefore I am still right', which is usually wrong, thus requiring the mod to do another calculation, this time showing how the player interpretation is wrong:

You started with 80 mAmps.

I proved that was wrong, and it was 3.1 MicroAmps.

You posted that it was 7 mAmps.

I proved that was wrong, and restated it was 3.1 MicroAmps.

 

 

To consider:

 

The lethality of an electric shock is dependent on several variables:

1) Current (the higher the current, the more likely it is lethal)

2) Duration (the longer the duration, the more likely it is lethal - safety switches limit time of current flow)

3) Pathway (if current flows through the heart muscle, it is more likely to be lethal)

4) Voltage

 

Presently, you have ultra-low current, ultra-low duration, no defined pathway...and a boatload of voltage.

[The_Mather1]

Well, a 1cm core would in fact be quite a waste of space as well as wire, and the reason I was talking about resistance is because that is the only thing limiting the orginial current, and your statement with 1A was ridicuolusly low.

 

And with a perfect (aka. superconducting) wire, the current would be near-infinite, meaning the secondary coil would also have a near-infinite current.

 

Ohm's law as you showed knowlegde of states that I=U/R, which means I=100/1x10^-?, whereas ? is an unknown, ridiculously high, nearly infinite number.

You could state that it would be limited, but it would not, as the capacitors are releasing the current and it does not pass through a fuse or power supply after that.

 

Superconductivity is an electrical resistance of exactly zero

In linear materials such as metals, the current density across the conductor surface is uniform. In such conditions, Ohm's law states that the current is directly proportional to the potential difference between two ends of that metal.

So, the current should be 100/0, but as we cannot divide by zero, we have to divide by the closest existing number, which is 1 after infinite decimals, so as a result I=∞.

[Retech]

Errrr no.

 

100/0 is undefined. End of story.

[Corvus]

Well, a 1cm core would in fact be quite a waste of space as well as wire, and the reason I was talking about resistance is because that is the only thing limiting the orginial current, and your statement with 1A was ridicuolusly low.

 

And with a perfect (aka. superconducting) wire, the current would be near-infinite, meaning the secondary coil would also have a near-infinite current.

 

Ohm's law as you showed knowlegde of states that I=U/R, which means I=100/1x10^-?, whereas ? is an unknown, ridiculously high, nearly infinite number.

You could state that it would be limited, but it would not, as the capacitors are releasing the current and it does not pass through a fuse or power supply after that.

 

Superconductivity is an electrical resistance of exactly zero

In linear materials such as metals, the current density across the conductor surface is uniform. In such conditions, Ohm's law states that the current is directly proportional to the potential difference between two ends of that metal.

So, the current should be 100/0, but as we cannot divide by zero, we have to divide by the closest existing number, which is 1 after infinite decimals, so as a result I=∞.

 

Chi, you are forgetting about Ohmic/Joule heating which using your values proves that your super conductor would instantly boil all of existance due to it releasing an infinate amount of heat