Space

[Nexaduro]

Isn't it the infinite speed = infinite mass thing though, even with electrons?

[The_Mather1]

The electrons themsekves don't move faster (they actually only move a few meter per hour) , just in a greater density, so the charge moves faster.

[Nexaduro]

Alright. You just lost me. Explain?

[The_Mather1]

Electricity contrary to what people believe is not freely moving electrons, it is electrons slowly moving, colliding into eachother, the transfer of energy that we use is actually that kinetic energy, still, the electrons themselves do move a little, thus enabling electromagnetism. Amperage is the amount of moving electrons passing through a plane in the wire, higher resistance means that there aren't as many electrons that can move, no resistance means that they can all move, so in a superconductive circuit the actual charge is nulled at almost the exact same moment as the circuit is completed.

 

You can look at it as showing marbles into a tube, the charge is the pressure with which the marbles are pushed, the resistance is how thin the tube is and how much force is keeping them from being pushed and current is how many marbles that pop out of the other end each second. Effect, or wattage, as Archi was talking about is how far the marbles that pop out per second fly when added together.

And a superconductive circuit is as if the tube is infinatly wide and pointing downwards, so no matter how hard you push them, they can't really go much faster or further.

[Retech]

Mather, learn to math!

 

I don't believe that electricity is the transfer of kinetic energy though.

[Jehosaphat]

wth science.

 

I deal with physics and chemistry classes and labs all day, then come home to the tavern and see this? do not want.

 

Now, I believe something is necessary. Mather...

 

THIS. IS. PSUEDOSCIENCE!!! *kicks into well*

[Nexaduro]

^ :thumbup:

 

Oh, and did I mention I'm leaving the Unity to fly far, far away?

[Corvus]

^ :thumbup:

 

Oh, and did I mention I'm leaving the Unity to fly far, far away?

 

Hopefully you are joking... since I have been taking the situation as serving as captain until I can find a suitable replacement as I personally really dont want to be the captain, especially not the only captain...

[Retech]

Knowing Nex and his propensity for fleeing into the depths of space in a small craft, I don't think he's joking. :P

[archimage_a]

The capacitor is a temporary medium for storage of energy, as it charges, it does not affect current

Just establishing that I was right....again...

 

 

but if an alternative route around the capacitor is opened, the entire built-up charge will flow through that,

If you opened up a route around the capacitor then the capacitor would be ignored, and the charge in the capacitor would decay.

 

resulting in a much higher amperage and overall charge than if there was no capacitor.

The Ampage would be the same, and the charge of the circuit would remain the same.

 

Though I am guessing you mean some sort of a second circuit involving the Capacitor.

 

 

So, to summerise your idea:

You have a power source of some type, pumping energy into a capacitor.

 

When the Capacitor reaches 100 Watts it switches to a seperate circuit.

 

The new circuit is Earthed at either end, allowing energy stored in the Capacitor to be discharged(not sure which way the energy would go so feel free to include 'The capacitor is reversed').

 

Since Resistance is 0*, then by Ohm's Law, Ampage must be Infinate. Which means the number of Volts is 100/Infinate. Preserving the number of Watts in the circuit, meaning no new energy is created, thus inkeeping with the laws of thermodynamics.

 

*Resistance is never actually 0, since there are always other forces acting on the materials, causing tiny degrees of resistance...So 0 Resistance only exists in simulator land, in the real world the resistance is soooooooooo tiny it has no effective bearing on things, though it does have a bearing, inkeeping with the laws of mathematics. This figure will be known as P^-1.

 

Then energy is transfered into a transformer, which steps up the 0 voltage, and steps down the infinate ampage by a factor of 100, resulting in a net change of 0, thus inkeeping with the laws of mathematics and laws of thermodynamics.**

 

**If this were a practical experiment then: The energy is transfered into a transformer, which steps up the P^-1 voltage, and steps down the P ampage by 100.

Where P is near infinate ampage. Then we need to work out the resistance of this part of the thing:

R= Rho*(Length of Conductor/crossection of wire)

So cross section is 0.0000007853981 Square Meters

The length would be at least 0.101 meters.

Rho would be P^-1.

So: 128,597P^-1 Ohms

So I^2*R, which would be 100P^2*128,567P^-1

Which is 12,856,700P Joules of heat.

Since the system itself only has 100 Watts in that means:

A) The system doesn't work, the moment the number of Joules of Hear exceed the number of Watts the system collapses.

B) The wire is gonna break down because electrons are getting ripped out to supply energy.

C) Something else.

Anyway, lets assume that doesn't happen this once.

 

Then energy is transfered into a transformer, which steps up the 0 voltage, and steps down the infinate ampage by a factor of 3,200, resulting in a net change of 0, thus inkeeping with the laws of mathematics and laws of thermodynamics.***

 

***If this were a practical experiment then: This energy is then transfered to a new transformer, which steps up the energy again, this time by a factor of 3,200. So the 100P^-1 voltage becomes 320,000P^-1, and the 100P Ampage becomes 320,000P. Then resistance, which would be:

Cross section is 0.0000007853981 Square Meters

The length would be at least 3.205 meters.

Rho would be P^-1.

R= 4,080,733P^-1 Ohms

Then 320,000P^2 * 4,080,733P^-1

Which equals: 1,305,834,560,000P Joules.

Again:

A) The system doesn't work, the moment the number of Watts is exceeded, the current is stopped.

B) The wire is gonna break down because electrons are getting ripped out to supply energy.

C) Something else.

Anyway, lets assume that doesn't happen...again.

 

Once it has been stepped up to this height, a human then touches it(Since the whole method of transferance is get to be explained).

The human has a resistance of 500,000 Ohms, on average.****

 

The current, being near infinate, generates excessive resistance. At rate of I^2*R...Or 320,000P^2*R*t

Which is 102,400,000,000P*R*t

Now, a human has a Rho of around 500,000 Ohms per meter.

Lets say left arm, across the torso and down into the right foot.

On me it is 97 Centimeters from my Left Hand to my heart and 130 Centimeters from my heart to my Right Foot.

Which has a net of 227 Centimeters, or 2.27 meters.

I will also work out if you hit directly next above my heart, so 1.3 meters.*****

Cross section is between 7 centimeters on my forearm, and 40 cenimeters from hip to hip. If we take the average at about 20 Centimeters(Given my leg is around that across), 0.031 Square meters

We get 500,000 * (2.27/0.031)

500,000*0.07037 = 35,185 Ohms.

102,400,000,000P*35,185*t

3,602,944,000,000,000P*t

t should be P^-1, since it is the inverse of the ampage.

So that takes it to 3,602,944,000,000,000 Joules of Heat.

 

*****We get 500,000 * (1.3/0.031)

500,000*0.0403 = 20,150 Ohms.

102,400,000,000P*20,150*t

2,063,360,000,000,000P*t

t should be P^-1, since it is the inverse of the ampage.

So that takes it to 2,063,360,000,000,000 Joules of Heat.

 

Which again:

A) The system doesn't work, the moment the number of Watts is exceeded, the current is stopped.

B) The skin is gonna break down because electrons are getting ripped out to supply energy.

C) Something else.

 

****If we take it as theoretical then:

The current, being infinate, generates infinate resistance. At rate of I^2*R...Infinate^2*R*t

Infinaty squared is infinaty, multiplied by 20,150 Ohms (or 35,185 Ohms, makes no difference) is infinaty, times by 0, is 0.

So the number of Joules of heat is also 0.

 

Which is not really sufficent for anything.

 

 

 

 

So, to summerise:

Theoretically, zero time passes once the capacitor has fired, meaning that no energy can actually be transfered.

Practically, even in the most perfect situation, there will be a tiny amount of resistance(P^-1), and this tiny amount of resistance, together with the giganormous amount of Current, leads to Ohmic Heating which would destroy anything it touches...including the circuit...Or expend the 100 Watts of energy and become useless.

 

 

Disclaimer:

This is based, as far as inkeeping with the laws of physics and what Mather said, as I can manage. I don't know that if you Earth a capacitor at both ends that it will discharge using Ohm's Law, and Rho subsituting R. I imagine it wouldn't. I imagine that nothing would happen, and you would have to send a charge through the capacitor to make it discharge, and that this charge would carry the surge of volts around the circuit, probably blowing something up.

 

Anyway, I think that is everything, I have made my final decision to completely disallow the weapon...since it doesn't seem to work, on any level.

If you have a problem, then feel free to post that you have a problem, however I consider the matter closed...

I am also using this as a precedent to disallow hard science arguements in the future, as this has wasted over 12 hours of my time and lead to me being accused of Raping the laws of Physics to suit my own ends...Despite me approaching this a calm and analytic fashion, explaining, at every stage, the thought process, at great length, using the actual numbers, rather than abbreviations which can be misleading and inaccurate if there is a typo...In short I have done everything physically possible to do this as objectively as possible...and still it has lead to me being accused of biased, that just hurts.

[Corvus]

Sorry missed the last part of that post (see my next post for explanation

 

Archi, one thing you are forgetting is that by definition a superconductor has a voltage of 0 in addition to its resistance of 0 (R=V/I), which really simplifies the whole problem as when relating to voltage, the superconductor can be considered as a single point in the entire circuit regardless of length (in terms of calculating currents and resistance in a circuit it essentially does not exist. So unless the entire device is based on a static(not moving) magnetic field being produced, the superconductor does essentially nothing

Edited February 24, 2011 by wyvren2000

[Jehosaphat]

Archi, one thing you are forgetting is that by definition a superconductor has a voltage of 0 in addition to its resistance of 0 (R=V/I), which really simplifies the whole problem as when relating to voltage, the superconductor can be considered as a single point in the entire circuit regardless of length (in terms of calculating currents and resistance in a circuit it essentially does not exist. So unless the entire device is based on a static(not moving) magnetic field being produced, the superconductor does essentially nothing

He said he was done. And frankly, I think we've all heard enough of this hard science. Don't make me slap you.

[Corvus]

Archi, one thing you are forgetting is that by definition a superconductor has a voltage of 0 in addition to its resistance of 0 (R=V/I), which really simplifies the whole problem as when relating to voltage, the superconductor can be considered as a single point in the entire circuit regardless of length (in terms of calculating currents and resistance in a circuit it essentially does not exist. So unless the entire device is based on a static(not moving) magnetic field being produced, the superconductor does essentially nothing

He said he was done. And frankly, I think we've all heard enough of this hard science. Don't make me slap you.

 

My apologies, I accidentally missed that last paragraph thinking it was a continuation of the disclaimer that I agreed with, so I had decided to skip reading it as I had been working on other things at the time.

Edited February 24, 2011 by wyvren2000

[Jehosaphat]

Archi, one thing you are forgetting is that by definition a superconductor has a voltage of 0 in addition to its resistance of 0 (R=V/I), which really simplifies the whole problem as when relating to voltage, the superconductor can be considered as a single point in the entire circuit regardless of length (in terms of calculating currents and resistance in a circuit it essentially does not exist. So unless the entire device is based on a static(not moving) magnetic field being produced, the superconductor does essentially nothing

He said he was done. And frankly, I think we've all heard enough of this hard science. Don't make me slap you.

 

My apologies, I accidentally missed that last paragraph thinking it was a continuation of the disclaimer that I agreed with, so I had decided to skip reading it as I had been working on other things at the time.

The slap you thing was a joke. :P

 

Off-topic: Do crew get the "edited by" bar no matter what?

[Corvus]

The slap you thing was a joke. :P

 

Off-topic: Do crew get the "edited by" bar no matter what?

I figured as much, however after you pointed it out I noticed I had totally missed something out of the message

 

OT: No, I just almost always use the edited by bar to represent when I make edits more than minor typos just to give a new timestamp to show exactly when it happened (helps in an arguement)

[The_Mather1]

Archi, shut up about Watts! A capacitor is a high-speed battery with a small max charge, once a capacitor reches a certain charge, Culomb, the spark gap triggers. When no alternative circuit is present, the capacitor is like a rechargable battery, it fills up with a static electric charge. When the alternative circuit is opened, the capacitor acts like a power source with no resistance, allowing it to discharge in nanoseconds.

 

Also the weapon is seemingly impossible because you broke it, you don't mess around saying something is a supercpnductor unless you have a reason to make it a superconductor, good old fashion 1mm enameled copper wire would still be able to deliver a lethal shock.

As for the infinithesimal time passing, it is enough to deliver the shock, because with one ifinithesimally long pulse every fifth of a second, there's still a pulse to actually fire with. Your modifications to the weapon just made it spntaniously combust the target at the first hit.

 

Now that you have demonstated your lack of knowledge on the subject, let me explain how a practically constructable tesla coil would behave.

 

First off, we start with a short, thick copper wire turned a very few times around another coil:

0,0125*(5cm diameter * 5 turns + 5cm extra)/5mm² = 0,00075Ohm

 

Then a 10mF capcitor with a 100V, 10A input:

100*0,01=1Culomb

1/10=0,1second charge time.

 

Now a switch then a spark gap to connect them:

100/0,00075=133,333.333A

1/133,333.333~0,0000075second discharge time.

 

Secondary coil has 1500 turns:

100/5*1500=30,000V

133,333.333*5/1500~444A

 

133,333.333*100~444*30,000~13,000,000W

 

 

Now this is a very realistic coil, there is likely more than one with specs exactly like this except for the switch.

I'll upload a pic of the circuit, with calculations, confirmed accurate by some other people in my class.

[Seraphi]

Mather. Drop it.

 

For the love of all that is holy, just drop it right now.

[The_Mather1]

[Seraphi]

Did you not listen? Archi has told you to drop it. I have told you to drop it. And yet, here you are.

[Corvus]

Chi, you do know you are really getting on everyone's nerves continuing the arguement after being told specifically not to. Also are falling victim to the most common mistake in science courses of not including any units in your work making it into a matter of Magic Numbers (IE none of them mean anything to anyone reading them)

[The_Mather1]

I'm sick of being nerfed because real science makes something powerful. It is powerful because physics makes it possible, as in if you were to make it right now, it'd be just as powerful. Stop nerfing science!

[Corvus]

I'm sick of being nerfed because real science makes something powerful. It is powerful because physics makes it possible, as in if you were to make it right now, it'd be just as powerful. Stop nerfing science!

 

If you are using current Science to support use of your Technology, I would advise you use a simple basic test to see if it is reasonable:

Does there currently exist a real world device performing a similar application(IE a killer tesla coil to a killer tesla coil, not a demonstration tesla coil to a killer tesla coil, and if the technology is portable is also vitally important) using the same principles, especially when your science supports it being better than everything else?

 

Essentially if your device is not feasible or impractical (IE doesn't get used in the mainstream) in our day and age, then you MUST rely on the soft science provided by Arch as there is a 99.999% chance that some factor puts it out of the limits of modern technology

[The_Mather1]

It is both feasible and practical, they're just not as effective as modern weapons, which I assume is the reason for not being weaponized, however here, our weapons don't work against any armour at all and energy weapons are the only ones capable of doing damage to those with even light personell armour.

 

If an unwary experimenter accidentally places himself in path of the high voltage capacitor discharge to ground, the low current electric shock can cause involuntary spasms of major muscle groups and may induce life-threatening ventricular fibrillation and cardiac arrest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil#High_frequency_electrical_safety

[Nexaduro]

All further posts on the subject will, within reason, be deleted. :thumbup:

 

For sanity's sake and such.

[The_Mather1]

Well, then I'm going to have to use a wireless tazer, god bless photoionization.