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I don't disagree with you. I just don't seem to mind as much as you do. If one man thinks his life is a gift from a higher power then thats fine. He has the right to think what he wants, maybe this belief will allow him to enjoy his life more than many other people can. Then there could also be an atheist who doesn't believe in a higher power but also makes the most out of his life and enjoys the time that he has. There might be a Buddhist who spends most of his life meditating trying to find peace in himself and others.It's just life and we all experience it differently. Variety in human thoughts and beliefs is limitless, but it's ok. Some beliefs may seem evil and to others they may seem good. Variety is the spice of life... and I don't mind.

 

Heres the thing though, many religious people don't stop there. If you want to have a spiritual personal voyage on your own, thats fine. I love that idea. I love the idea of a person connecting himself to the universe and finding a meaning in his life. What I don't love is people who insist that this idea is correct.

 

For example, I'm a huge fan of meditation and I believe that it has changed my life for the better. But, the science of meditation is totally not convincing. Do I go around telling people that meditation is the only way to live well? No. I know it is the key to ME living well, but other people feel differently. I also find great happiness in the sport of weight lifting. It is one of the few activities that really let me work out some frustration and do something in solitude. Is it for everyone? No. But religious people always tell me they KNOW that THEIR religion is the only way to God and that people need to join their side.

 

Also, I have a big problem with people raising their children to believe in some particular something. Religion and spirituality are an entirel personal journey and I firmly believe that it is a bad idea to have a child of 2 years old and call him a "Christian". Would you call this child a Rebublican? A libertarian? How can you possibly say that somebody has developed a view about the cosmos when they don't even understand how to read yet?

 

Thats not what I'm saying at all.

No, its what you said. Maybe the point you're trying to make is different, but you're not doing a very good job of making it.

 

No, what I said is to show me the well documented evidence that Pastafarianism is a hoax, that it is not real. What you showed me is that somebody created the story.

 

Fiction writers created the idea of black holes and worm holes before they were ever discovered. Just because somebody creates an idea does not immediately qualify this idea as a non-reality.

 

Hell, this is why I say that God COULD exist. Im aware that all religions came from people who just made up the ideas, but simply because someone came up with an idea out of nowhere doesn't qualify that idea as impossible.

 

Oh and furthermore, what you showed me is not even evidence that he DID make up the idea. What you showed me is that somebody just decided to write down that his idea was a parody. Here, look at this: "Jesus was a liar. He made up lots of things about God as a parody to Judaism." Now this must be true right?? Since somebody randomly decided to write it.

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Oh and furthermore, what you showed me is not even evidence that he DID make up the idea. What you showed me is that somebody just decided to write down that his idea was a parody. Here, look at this: "Jesus was a liar. He made up lots of things about God as a parody to Judaism." Now this must be true right?? Since somebody randomly decided to write it.

Do you understand what the words "parody" and "satire" mean?

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Also, I have a big problem with people raising their children to believe in some particular something. Religion and spirituality are an entirel personal journey and I firmly believe that it is a bad idea to have a child of 2 years old and call him a "Christian". Would you call this child a Rebublican? A libertarian? How can you possibly say that somebody has developed a view about the cosmos when they don't even understand how to read yet?

I half agree with this, in that it's wrong for any parent to raise their child in a strict beliefs system instead of trusting that their children will find whatever they personally believe to be the truth anyway.

 

However, in my room there is a framed photo collection of my birth, including a photo from a local newpaper of my mother holding me in her arms at a pro-choice rally against her then-MP, an anti-abortion campaigner. I also ended up growing up to believe in pro-choice, but I can't say it was ever beaten in to me that if I believed abortion was wrong, I would be punished for believing this. I may not have been doctrinated, but I passively inherited the values my parents believed in anyway.

 

The point I'm making is: Does it really matter how strict parents are about their children's values and belief system when, even if they weren't strict, they'd probably end up believing the same things anyway?

 

So long as we're not talking about abuse, I don't see much of a problem. Parents have different ways of doing things. So long as they eventually teach their child about the value of hard work, respect for others and a tolerance for diversity, does it really matter if they delude themselves into thinking their two-week old child has a sophisticated enough understanding of the Bible to call themselves Christian?

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The point I'm making is: Does it really matter how strict parents are about their children's values and belief system when, even if they weren't strict, they'd probably end up believing the same things anyway?

 

So long as we're not talking about abuse, I don't see much of a problem. Parents have different ways of doing things. So long as they eventually teach their child about the value of hard work, respect for others and a tolerance for diversity, does it really matter if they delude themselves into thinking their two-week old child has a sophisticated enough understanding of the Bible to call themselves Christian?

 

If it weren't for hearing so many testimonies from people who were raised religious, I might share your opinion. However, I have heard too many stories of people who went through 16-20 (or more) years of their life thinking that the only right way to live was through Christianity. Now, they weren't raised in a house where their parents strapped them to a chair and shoved a bible in their mouth. But they were just raised in a typical house where their families said "We are Christian, and you are too."

 

A lot of people actually have difficult experiences similar to "coming out" about homosexuality when they are feeling like their parents' religion is not for them.

 

Do you understand what the words "parody" and "satire" mean?

 

"A parody (pronounced /ˈpærədi/; also called send-up, spoof or lampoon), in contemporary usage, is a work created to mock, comment on, or make fun at an original work, its subject, author, style, or some other target, by means of humorous, satiric or ironic imitation." Hows that sound?

 

It's something that a person created. How does this prove that the events are not the truth?

 

As I said, fiction writers invented the concept of a wormhole many years before scientists discovered the possibility. Does this mean wormholes arent actually possible? Since someone created it?

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I don't disagree with you. I just don't seem to mind as much as you do. If one man thinks his life is a gift from a higher power then thats fine. He has the right to think what he wants, maybe this belief will allow him to enjoy his life more than many other people can. Then there could also be an atheist who doesn't believe in a higher power but also makes the most out of his life and enjoys the time that he has. There might be a Buddhist who spends most of his life meditating trying to find peace in himself and others.It's just life and we all experience it differently. Variety in human thoughts and beliefs is limitless, but it's ok. Some beliefs may seem evil and to others they may seem good. Variety is the spice of life... and I don't mind.

 

Heres the thing though, many religious people don't stop there. If you want to have a spiritual personal voyage on your own, thats fine. I love that idea. I love the idea of a person connecting himself to the universe and finding a meaning in his life. What I don't love is people who insist that this idea is correct.

 

For example, I'm a huge fan of meditation and I believe that it has changed my life for the better. But, the science of meditation is totally not convincing. Do I go around telling people that meditation is the only way to live well? No. I know it is the key to ME living well, but other people feel differently. I also find great happiness in the sport of weight lifting. It is one of the few activities that really let me work out some frustration and do something in solitude. Is it for everyone? No. But religious people always tell me they KNOW that THEIR religion is the only way to God and that people need to join their side.

 

Also, I have a big problem with people raising their children to believe in some particular something. Religion and spirituality are an entirel personal journey and I firmly believe that it is a bad idea to have a child of 2 years old and call him a "Christian". Would you call this child a Rebublican? A libertarian? How can you possibly say that somebody has developed a view about the cosmos when they don't even understand how to read yet?

 

 

I don't think people should force their beliefs/ideas on others either. There are religious people who like to try and convert others, but then there are also atheist people who try to pull people away from religion. Some of my good friends are christian, and they know that I am an Atheist. They don't preach to me about a higher-power and religion and I don't preach to them my ideas either. Sometimes we may have conversations about religion, but it never seems to change our friendship. But yes, problems do arise when people take their opinion as fact and try to force it on others, it just isn't something only done by religious people and many times people may force ideas that don't have anything to do with religion. In general, I love it when people can be accepting of other people's beliefs.

 

I was baptized as a catholic when I was only about a year old, and I don't think I even really started to understand Christianity until I was about 11 years old ( and I am still not an expert on that religion). I understand that it was part of my parents beliefs to baptize me and I really don't mind because I don't believe in it. Also, I don't mind if I was called a catholic, because I don't think it changed anything. Its fine for parents to teach their children about their culture and religion, but they should also allow them to explore other cultures and religions as well.

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Do you understand what the words "parody" and "satire" mean?

 

"A parody (pronounced /ˈpærədi/; also called send-up, spoof or lampoon), in contemporary usage, is a work created to mock, comment on, or make fun at an original work, its subject, author, style, or some other target, by means of humorous, satiric or ironic imitation." Hows that sound?

 

It's something that a person created. How does this prove that the events are not the truth?

Because the so claimed events are a satire on other modern religions. If you don't understand the sarcasm behind it, then there's no point in discussing this.

 

 

As I said, fiction writers invented the concept of a wormhole many years before scientists discovered the possibility. Does this mean wormholes arent actually possible? Since someone created it?

This has nothing to do with what we're discussing. Wormholes weren't invented to poke fun at anything.

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I don't think people should force their beliefs/ideas on others either. There are religious people who like to try and convert others, but then there are also atheist people who try to pull people away from religion. Some of my good friends are christian, and they know that I am an Atheist. They don't preach to me about a higher-power and religion and I don't preach to them my ideas either. Sometimes we may have conversations about religion, but it never seems to change our friendship. But yes, problems do arise when people take their opinion as fact and try to force it on others, it just isn't something only done by religious people and many times people may force ideas that don't have anything to do with religion. In general, I love it when people can be accepting of other people's beliefs.

 

I was baptized as a catholic when I was only about a year old, and I don't think I even really started to understand Christianity until I was about 11 years old ( and I am still not an expert on that religion). I understand that it was part of my parents beliefs to baptize me and I really don't mind because I don't believe in it. Also, I don't mind if I was called a catholic, because I don't think it changed anything. Its fine for parents to teach their children about their culture and religion, but they should also allow them to explore other cultures and religions as well.

 

You and I are the lucky ones. I was also baptised and raised "Catholic" but my parents never really focused very much at all on my beliefs.

 

Unfortunately, many people are not fortunate enough to have open minded parents. Heck, I look at my cousins...their parents raised them Catholic, basically reminding them every day for the things that "God did" and the things that you will go to Hell for if you think...They force them to go to church and other religious stuff where a bunch of kids sit in a room and recite Bible verses.

 

I've recently "converted" one of my life-long friends to atheism. She was raised in a very restrictive Christian household, and felt forced and guilted into believing the religion. When I asked her why she never questioned her religion sooner, she said "Well...I guess I never really knew I could..."

 

I think thats the stuff I hate when it comes to religion.

 

 

Do you understand what the words "parody" and "satire" mean?

 

"A parody (pronounced /ˈpærədi/; also called send-up, spoof or lampoon), in contemporary usage, is a work created to mock, comment on, or make fun at an original work, its subject, author, style, or some other target, by means of humorous, satiric or ironic imitation." Hows that sound?

 

It's something that a person created. How does this prove that the events are not the truth?

Because the so claimed events are a satire on other modern religions. If you don't understand the sarcasm behind it, then there's no point in discussing this.

 

 

As I said, fiction writers invented the concept of a wormhole many years before scientists discovered the possibility. Does this mean wormholes arent actually possible? Since someone created it?

This has nothing to do with what we're discussing. Wormholes weren't invented to poke fun at anything.

 

So if they were created as a joke, THEN that would mean our modern scientists could never discover a wormhole?

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Unfortunately, many people are not fortunate enough to have open minded parents. Heck, I look at my cousins...their parents raised them Catholic, basically reminding them every day for the things that "God did" and the things that you will go to Hell for if you think...They force them to go to church and other religious stuff where a bunch of kids sit in a room and recite Bible verses.

 

I've recently "converted" one of my life-long friends to atheism. She was raised in a very restrictive Christian household, and felt forced and guilted into believing the religion. When I asked her why she never questioned her religion sooner, she said "Well...I guess I never really knew I could..."

 

I think thats the stuff I hate when it comes to religion.

 

The religion is not the problem. What is religion other then some ideas put together that one may believe? Religion is as harmless as anything, the harm comes from the people who put belief behind it and force it in such a negative way. Humans created religion, humans choose to believe in it, humans choose to act upon it. So it is the human mind that is the cause for these issues, rather than religion.

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So if they were created as a joke, THEN that would mean our modern scientists could never discover a wormhole?

No, a closer example would be Mr. Garrison's invention in the show South Park, IT. They use IT as an example to rip on airports, a stab at humor. Is the example impossible? Not really, except its highly improbable. After watching that clip, would you want to invest anything at all in IT, in real life? Only if you were protesting airports. Does anyone that invests anything in IT in real life take it seriously? Hopefully no, but if you don't understand parody/sarcasm/satire then you'd be left behind.

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So if they were created as a joke, THEN that would mean our modern scientists could never discover a wormhole?

No, a closer example would be Mr. Garrison's invention in the show South Park, IT. They use IT as an example to rip on airports, a stab at humor. Is the example impossible? Not really, except its highly improbable. After watching that clip, would you want to invest anything at all in IT, in real life? Only if you were protesting airports. Does anyone that invests anything in IT in real life take it seriously? Hopefully no, but if you don't understand parody/sarcasm/satire then you'd be left behind.

 

Okay...and how you feel about IT is exactly the same way that I feel about Pastafarianism.. and Christianity. It certainly isn't impossible, but there is no concrete evidence at all to convince me that the idea is worthy of altering any part of my life to accomodate for IT.

 

Would you respect someone who supports the idea of IT?

 

Would you respect someone who believes in Pastafarianism?

 

Would you respect someone who believes in Christianity?

 

If any of the three above scenarios deserve special treatment, I'd like an explanation for why one is any more respectable than the other. None have any supporting evidence and all are simply dreamings of the human mind.

 

Just because Pastafarianism and IT were created as jokes doesn't mean that they are less plausible. Christianity may have come from serious intent, but the claims still need to be evaluated on the same level. We don't think that a flying spaghetti monster is likely to exist, because we have never seen pasta come to life. Similarly, why should we ever think that an afterlife exists if we have never seen one?

 

 

"The giant man in the sky made everything around us" is as much of a joke to me as Mr. Garrison's obscene device is to you. And I'm in this thread looking for reasons why the former is not a complete joke.

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Would you respect someone who supports the idea of IT?

What is there to respect? 200mph at 80mpg? With a little modification of the seat and controls, sign me up.

 

Would you respect someone who believes in Pastafarianism?

Absolutely not, in the same way I don't respect Scientology. We know exactly when they were created, we know exactly who they were created by, and we know exactly the reasons they were created, which weren't "divine inspiration." Its also a similar reason to why I don't respect Mormonism as a belief - the belief not the believers. Unlike Scientology and Mormonism, I have no respect for "believers" of "Pastafarianism" - simply because they don't exist. Anyone who says they believe they were touched by the magical noodly appendage is openly mocking organized religion. And, if they are being serious, I feel bad for them because they're too stupid to see the point and purpose of their "religion." We thought of the most absolutely ridiculous thing we could think of, then we applied everything we knew about other religions to it, and then challenged them to disprove their own parodied religion.

 

Would you respect someone who believes in Christianity?

Yes, I respect Christians and Christianity, in the same way I respect the beliefs/believers of Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, and other major religions.

 

If any of the three above scenarios deserve special treatment, I'd like an explanation for why one is any more respectable than the other. None have any supporting evidence and all are simply dreamings of the human mind.

Its deserves special treatment because it isn't openly mocking people.

 

We don't think that a flying spaghetti monster is likely to exist, because we have never seen pasta come to life.

And because no one believes it anyway, versus the 6 billion people that believe in something and recognize morality / good and evil, and unknown or difficult to understand forces not of this earth.

 

"The giant man in the sky made everything around us" is as much of a joke to me as Mr. Garrison's obscene device is to you. And I'm in this thread looking for reasons why the former is not a complete joke.

Its not a complete joke because 11 of the original 12 followers of Christ were martyred for their belief. Laying all this academic mumbo jumbo aside, can you think of anything you believe in so strongly that you would die for it? Do you honestly think the so called believers of the FSM would stand firm and refuse to renounce their belief if they were tortured, only to suffer a slow and excruciatingly painful death?

 

If there was nothing to religion, why would it stand the test of time for thousands of years, why would people spend their lives and deaths devoting themselves to a "joke"?

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We don't think that a flying spaghetti monster is likely to exist, because we have never seen pasta come to life.

And because no one believes it anyway, versus the 6 billion people that believe in something and recognize morality / good and evil, and unknown or difficult to understand forces not of this earth.

A large portion of the world believes in the Geocentric model of the universe until the 15th and 16th centuries, yet we know that to be blatantly wrong now, so who's to say that we won't hold the same beliefs about religion in a few hundred years? Also, using religion to explain "unknown or difficult to understand forces not of this earth" (does that mean in space and such, or "supernatural"?) is just laziness.

 

"The giant man in the sky made everything around us" is as much of a joke to me as Mr. Garrison's obscene device is to you. And I'm in this thread looking for reasons why the former is not a complete joke.

Its not a complete joke because 11 of the original 12 followers of Christ were martyred for their belief. Laying all this academic mumbo jumbo aside, can you think of anything you believe in so strongly that you would die for it? Do you honestly think the so called believers of the FSM would stand firm and refuse to renounce their belief if they were tortured, only to suffer a slow and excruciatingly painful death?

 

If there was nothing to religion, why would it stand the test of time for thousands of years, why would people spend their lives and deaths devoting themselves to a "joke"?

Why does it matter that people were willing to give their lives (quite stupidly in my opinion) for their ideas? Sure, many people have died for good causes throughout history (such as revolts against malevolent dictatorships or anti-segregation movements) but honestly, what about religion makes it so exceptional that people should want to die to protect their beliefs? What does it do for the world that makes it so special?

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"The giant man in the sky made everything around us" is as much of a joke to me as Mr. Garrison's obscene device is to you. And I'm in this thread looking for reasons why the former is not a complete joke.

Its not a complete joke because 11 of the original 12 followers of Christ were martyred for their belief. Laying all this academic mumbo jumbo aside, can you think of anything you believe in so strongly that you would die for it? Do you honestly think the so called believers of the FSM would stand firm and refuse to renounce their belief if they were tortured, only to suffer a slow and excruciatingly painful death?

 

If there was nothing to religion, why would it stand the test of time for thousands of years, why would people spend their lives and deaths devoting themselves to a "joke"?

 

Why does it matter that people were willing to give their lives (quite stupidly in my opinion) for their ideas? Sure, many people have died for good causes throughout history (such as revolts against malevolent dictatorships or anti-segregation movements) but honestly, what about religion makes it so exceptional that people should want to die to protect their beliefs? What does it do for the world that makes it so special?

 

Dying for your beliefs is basically the highest devotion you can show for anything, and that level of devotion doesn't simply come from reading some stories. These people must have experienced something greater than life, something that convinced them that their religion is the right one. They accepted the fact that they would get killed for their beliefs and they took their punishment with pride. That's what makes it special.

 

Also, at myweponsgood, if you're religious, of course you'll think of your religion as the right one, why else would you believe in it? Yes, it's annoying when people get too pushy, but it's only normal that you think you have the right religion and that you want people to experience the same you did. Of course you have nutcases who go to far and end up missing the point of religion by going way overboard, but there are nutcases everywhere, in all parts of life, they aren't the norm, but the vocal minority.

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Dying for your beliefs is basically the highest devotion you can show for anything, and that level of devotion doesn't simply come from reading some stories. These people must have experienced something greater than life, something that convinced them that their religion is the right one. They accepted the fact that they would get killed for their beliefs and they took their punishment with pride. That's what makes it special.

People have done the same for causes that have nothing to do with religion. The women's suffragete movement, or black civil rights for example. It's just silly to assume that because someone is willing to die for something, that it must be part of 'something greater' that humans are incapable of understanding by their volition.

 

There are many people in America who would defend freedom of speech with their lives if called upon, not necessarily because of religion, but because freedom of self-expression is so valued in American culture.

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You also have to ask yourself - why was the bible written down at all?

 

If the events were frankly untrue, nobody would have listened; they would have shrugged them off as foolish mis-truths (just as we do so with pastafarianism today).

If the events were merely meant to lie to people, why would hundreds of people have died for a lie?

 

The only logical conclusion is that the events dictated in the bible have some basis in fact.

 

@ginger: Yes, that's exactly the point he's making. People who died for womens rights, or for civil rights, had dedicated themselves to it - they most firmly believed in it and were ready to die for what they stood for.

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Dying for your beliefs is basically the highest devotion you can show for anything, and that level of devotion doesn't simply come from reading some stories. These people must have experienced something greater than life, something that convinced them that their religion is the right one. They accepted the fact that they would get killed for their beliefs and they took their punishment with pride. That's what makes it special.

People have done the same for causes that have nothing to do with religion. The women's suffragete movement, or black civil rights for example. It's just silly to assume that because someone is willing to die for something, that it must be part of 'something greater' that humans are incapable of understanding by their volition.

 

There are many people in America who would defend freedom of speech with their lives if called upon, not necessarily because of religion, but because freedom of self-expression is so valued in American culture.

 

I wasn't claiming that for someone to sacrifice themselves they needed religious reasons, I was responding to a claim saying people that died in name of their religion didn't have any significance. I'm not in any way claiming that people can only sacrifice themselves for religious reasons.

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Absolutely not, in the same way I don't respect Scientology. We know exactly when they were created, we know exactly who they were created by, and we know exactly the reasons they were created, which weren't "divine inspiration." Its also a similar reason to why I don't respect Mormonism as a belief - the belief not the believers. Unlike Scientology and Mormonism, I have no respect for "believers" of "Pastafarianism" - simply because they don't exist. Anyone who says they believe they were touched by the magical noodly appendage is openly mocking organized religion. And, if they are being serious, I feel bad for them because they're too stupid to see the point and purpose of their "religion." We thought of the most absolutely ridiculous thing we could think of, then we applied everything we knew about other religions to it, and then challenged them to disprove their own parodied religion.

 

Again, how do we know that the flying sphagetti monster DOES NOT EXIST? I know that the ideology was initially intended to be a mockery, but how does the intent of an idea determine if the idea is true?

 

Again, the original intent of the idea of a wormhole was to amuse people with a work of fiction. Yet, we now are seeing wormholes could be quite possible. How does the intent of the idea determine whether or not the idea is true?

 

Yes, I respect Christians and Christianity, in the same way I respect the beliefs/believers of Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, and other major religions.

 

Why? What evidence do we have that the soul, afterlife, and divine creator exist?

 

Its deserves special treatment because it isn't openly mocking people.

 

Actually, Christianity openly denounces non-believers and homosexuals.

 

And because no one believes it anyway, versus the 6 billion people that believe in something and recognize morality / good and evil, and unknown or difficult to understand forces not of this earth.

 

Billions of people in the past believed that the Earth was the center of the universe...does that deserve merit too? We also thought that all objects had a distinct mass that can never change. Do we want to discredit special relativity and the relativistic mass?

 

Its not a complete joke because 11 of the original 12 followers of Christ were martyred for their belief. Laying all this academic mumbo jumbo aside, can you think of anything you believe in so strongly that you would die for it? Do you honestly think the so called believers of the FSM would stand firm and refuse to renounce their belief if they were tortured, only to suffer a slow and excruciatingly painful death?

 

If there was nothing to religion, why would it stand the test of time for thousands of years, why would people spend their lives and deaths devoting themselves to a "joke"?

 

What? People died for Christianity and this somehow proves it is correct?

 

People die for Islam...is that correct too? Are all religions correct because people died for them?

 

People died for the Nazis. Are they correct also?

 

You also have to ask yourself - why was the bible written down at all?

 

If the events were frankly untrue, nobody would have listened; they would have shrugged them off as foolish mis-truths (just as we do so with pastafarianism today).

If the events were merely meant to lie to people, why would hundreds of people have died for a lie?

 

The only logical conclusion is that the events dictated in the bible have some basis in fact.

 

 

I could replace the word "Bible" with "Torah" or "Baghavad Gita" or "Koran" or "Veda". Hell, I could replace "Bible" with devil worship, Nazism, slavery treaty, etc...anything. We enslaved humans for thousands of years and people died to perserve the slave trade. Is this cause right also?

 

The people died for a lie because they believed the lie, obviously.

 

This is like saying "If saturated fat doesn't actually cause heart disease, why did everyone start making low fat products and buying vegetable oils?" They did it because the scientists did bad science and people believed it. Humans don't have some inate ability to see whats true and what isn't.

 

If the geocentric model of the universe is wrong, why did people accept it untill a few hundred years ago?

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Dying for your beliefs is basically the highest devotion you can show for anything, and that level of devotion doesn't simply come from reading some stories. These people must have experienced something greater than life, something that convinced them that their religion is the right one. They accepted the fact that they would get killed for their beliefs and they took their punishment with pride. That's what makes it special.

People have done the same for causes that have nothing to do with religion. The women's suffragete movement, or black civil rights for example. It's just silly to assume that because someone is willing to die for something, that it must be part of 'something greater' that humans are incapable of understanding by their volition.

 

There are many people in America who would defend freedom of speech with their lives if called upon, not necessarily because of religion, but because freedom of self-expression is so valued in American culture.

 

I wasn't claiming that for someone to sacrifice themselves they needed religious reasons, I was responding to a claim saying people that died in name of their religion didn't have any significance. I'm not in any way claiming that people can only sacrifice themselves for religious reasons.

Fair enough, I misinterpreted what was meant. I thought you meant that religious believers were privy to some information that was worth dying for, that non-believers were incapable of understanding because they weren't religious. The same accusation would have worked the other way; atheists who instantly dismiss believers as irrational simply because they happen to believe in something they personally don't are just as silly.

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Fair enough, I misinterpreted what was meant. I thought you meant that religious believers were privy to some information that was worth dying for, that non-believers were incapable of understanding because they weren't religious. The same accusation would have worked the other way; atheists who instantly dismiss believers as irrational simply because they happen to believe in something they personally don't are just as silly.

 

Do people also have the right to believe that the Earth is flat and not be called "irrational"? I mean they just happen to believe in something that you don't believe.

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I could replace the word "Bible" with "Torah" or "Baghavad Gita" or "Koran" or "Veda". Hell, I could replace "Bible" with devil worship, Nazism, slavery treaty, etc...anything. We enslaved humans for thousands of years and people died to perserve the slave trade. Is this cause right also?

 

I never said the fact that people died for something made it inherently right - but it does at least indicate there is powerful evidence to believe it's true.

 

 

The people died for a lie because they believed the lie, obviously.

 

And why would they believe a lie? They were right there - they would have been the first ones to call bs if something was wrong.

 

This is like saying "If saturated fat doesn't actually cause heart disease, why did everyone start making low fat products and buying vegetable oils?" They did it because the scientists did bad science and people believed it. Humans don't have some inate ability to see whats true and what isn't.

 

If the geocentric model of the universe is wrong, why did people accept it untill a few hundred years ago?

 

Of course humans don't have inate lie-detection - but generally we believe things that are true, or at least when we have reasonable evidence of such. You're still not answering my question - these people died for Jesus right when these events were occuring. If Jesus was a fraud, surely they would have been the first to know - and why then would they have laid their lives on the line for that?

 

Once gain, I don't see anyone being martyred for pastafarianism.

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Fair enough, I misinterpreted what was meant. I thought you meant that religious believers were privy to some information that was worth dying for, that non-believers were incapable of understanding because they weren't religious. The same accusation would have worked the other way; atheists who instantly dismiss believers as irrational simply because they happen to believe in something they personally don't are just as silly.

 

Do people also have the right to believe that the Earth is flat and not be called "irrational"? I mean they just happen to believe in something that you don't believe.

 

No, they don't. We know for a fact the Earth is round and we've known this since the 16th century. We've sailed around it, we've seen it from space and saw that it was, in fact, round. There's simply not a single piece of evidence that says otherwise. Calling them irrational might be a bit unfair, uneducated would match the situation better. But honestly, show me anyone that thinks the earth is flat.

 

What Ginger meant, I think (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that it's unfair to immediately dismiss someone religious for believing in their god, reason being that there's just no definitive answer to give.

 

Believing in a god is personal and is not a science, there's no evidence for either side that there is or isn't a god.

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I never said the fact that people died for something made it inherently right - but it does at least indicate there is powerful evidence to believe it's true.

 

Then every religion is true, along with Nazism, Marxism, and devil worship. Also I'm sure there are some psychos out there who died in the name of the voices they heard in their head. People have died in the name of Japan, is Japan the best country? Hell people have died for basically everything. People have died due to their scientific beliefs. I guess everything is true then?

 

And why would they believe a lie? They were right there - they would have been the first ones to call bs if something was wrong.

 

Why are there people who believe in Jesus and people who believe in Muhammad? Are both then true?

 

Of course humans don't have inate lie-detection - but generally we believe things that are true, or at least when we have reasonable evidence of such. You're still not answering my question - these people died for Jesus right when these events were occuring. If Jesus was a fraud, surely they would have been the first to know - and why then would they have laid their lives on the line for that?

 

Once gain, I don't see anyone being martyred for pastafarianism.

 

First of all, I'm not sure that theres really evidence that any of the disciples died for Jesus, or that Jesus even ever existed.

 

Secondly, why would people have died for Muhammad?

 

Thirdly, why would people have died for Hitler if his cause wasn't worth supporting? Better fire up the gas chambers.

 

No, they don't. We know for a fact the Earth is round and we've known this since the 16th century. We've sailed around it, we've seen it from space and saw that it was, in fact, round. There's simply not a single piece of evidence that says otherwise. Calling them irrational might be a bit unfair, uneducated would match the situation better. But honestly, show me anyone that thinks the earth is flat.

 

What Ginger meant, I think (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that it's unfair to immediately dismiss someone religious for believing in their god, reason being that there's just no definitive answer to give.

 

Believing in a god is personal and is not a science, there's no evidence for either side that there is or isn't a god.

 

And here we go around the circle again. We also don't have evidence for or against the flying spaghetti monster. We also don't have evidence that a giant undetecable beam of death isn't going to strike the Earth from a distant cosmic event.

 

We also don't have evidence that people hearing voices in their head aren't actually hearing a real voice from a supernatural source. Yet these people get committed to a mental hospital.

 

If you take your same defense of religion and apply it to any other scenario, it sounds completely crazy. The only reason "You don't have evidence for or against God" sounds like a reasonable argument is that you've been brainwashed into thinking religion must be accepted. You wouldn't say "You don't have evidence for or against unicorns, so maybe they exist"

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What Ginger meant, I think (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that it's unfair to immediately dismiss someone religious for believing in their god, reason being that there's just no definitive answer to give.

 

Believing in a god is personal and is not a science, there's no evidence for either side that there is or isn't a god.

Precisely.

 

I'm not too concerned about whether God does or doesn't exist, I'm more bothered by the process through which people arrive at their own belief. In my eyes, it's fine for someone to state they don't believe in anything that has no evidence, and then say there is no conclusive evidence that God exists, hence they're atheist. The problem is, some people take it further and say there is categorically no God based on no evidence either. It isn't consistent.

 

People try and dress that up by saying, "Burden of proof should go to religious people." That's a cop-out in my eyes. That just says to me neither side has any conclusive evidence.

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What Ginger meant, I think (please correct me if I'm wrong), is that it's unfair to immediately dismiss someone religious for believing in their god, reason being that there's just no definitive answer to give.

 

Believing in a god is personal and is not a science, there's no evidence for either side that there is or isn't a god.

Precisely.

 

I'm not too concerned about whether God does or doesn't exist, I'm more bothered by the process through which people arrive at their own belief. In my eyes, it's fine for someone to state they don't believe in anything that has no evidence, and then say there is no conclusive evidence that God exists, hence they're atheist. The problem is, some people take it further and say there is categorically no God based on no evidence either. It isn't consistent.

 

People try and dress that up by saying, "Burden of proof should go to religious people." That's a cop-out in my eyes. That just says to me neither side has any conclusive evidence.

 

Do you believe in unicorns?

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Again, how do we know that the flying sphagetti monster DOES NOT EXIST? I know that the ideology was initially intended to be a mockery, but how does the intent of an idea determine if the idea is true?

 

Again, the original intent of the idea of a wormhole was to amuse people with a work of fiction. Yet, we now are seeing wormholes could be quite possible. How does the intent of the idea determine whether or not the idea is true?

Quite frankly, we don't know if God looks like a bowl of spaghetti or not, but the intent of the idea plays a role in whether the idea is respectable or not, should be given any serious thought or not, or just shrugged off as a joke. The letter back in 2005 made its point quite well, and the people carrying the idea on today are just taking it too far.

 

Its deserves special treatment because it isn't openly mocking people.

Actually, Christianity openly denounces non-believers and homosexuals.

Saying that a man sleeping with another man is unnatural/wrong is not openly mocking people. Try again.

 

And because no one believes it anyway, versus the 6 billion people that believe in something and recognize morality / good and evil, and unknown or difficult to understand forces not of this earth.

Billions of people in the past believed that the Earth was the center of the universe...does that deserve merit too? We also thought that all objects had a distinct mass that can never change. Do we want to discredit special relativity and the relativistic mass?

You've discredited your own point. In the past - no one educated believes it now.

 

What? People died for Christianity and this somehow proves it is correct?

Not just "people" - 11 out of the original 12 believers withstood torture and painful deaths, refusing to denounce their testimony, believing and proclaiming what they saw until the very end. This is the same for many of the very early Christians. This shows that it isn't a joke or something that people aren't taking very seriously.

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♪♪ Don't interrupt me as I struggle to complete this thought
Have some respect for someone more forgetful than yourself ♪♪

♪♪ And I'm not done
And I won't be till my head falls off ♪♪

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