Libya Uprising thread

[Crocefisso]

A worthy bump. The NTC has consistently impressed me as capable and rational as a transitional government can be. Here's a copy of a draft of the constitution that is currently being drawn up, the NTC will only ratify it if two-thirds of the population agree to it:

 

http://www.al-bab.co...ional-Stage.pdf

 

Make no mistake, Libya isn't going to be like "western" countries like the US or the UK, and neither should it be, but it does look democratic. I like it, it does its best to reduce corruption, but otherwise in many aspects it's very liberal. What do you guys think of it?

 

As for the CIA and MI6 having worked with Gaddafi, it really doesn't surprise me. Nobody liked him, but the man had oil and the capacity to directly influence the world economies. We can all easily be horrified and ridicule them, but really, any rational person would at least talk with Doctor Evil if he could significantly damage their country with a moon-laser. Lesser of two evils and whatnot.

 

I largely agree, though I did hear one particularly ironic statement from an NTC official along the lines of 'We will give Gaddafi a fair trial, and then he will be killed by firing squad'.

 

On the issue of the CIA/MI6, it goes much deeper than being the 'lesser of two evils'. Our intelligence agencies encouraged Gaddafi to torture because it was useful to us, and then we scorn him for it (admittedly, he did it long before and would have done it anyway, but it becomes contradictory after our encouragement of such acts). I think there is a difference between exchanging intelligence and whatnot and using Libyan prisons as a sort of Guantánamo Bay in Africa. MI6 and the CIA need to face up to this, apologise, and move on.

 

@Dizzle: not to mention the situation in Bani Walid, Sabha and a few other desert towns.

[darkace21]

A worthy bump. The NTC has consistently impressed me as capable and rational as a transitional government can be. Here's a copy of a draft of the constitution that is currently being drawn up, the NTC will only ratify it if two-thirds of the population agree to it:

 

http://www.al-bab.co...ional-Stage.pdf

 

Make no mistake, Libya isn't going to be like "western" countries like the US or the UK, and neither should it be, but it does look democratic. I like it, it does its best to reduce corruption, but otherwise in many aspects it's very liberal. What do you guys think of it?

 

As for the CIA and MI6 having worked with Gaddafi, it really doesn't surprise me. Nobody liked him, but the man had oil and the capacity to directly influence the world economies. We can all easily be horrified and ridicule them, but really, any rational person would at least talk with Doctor Evil if he could significantly damage their country with a moon-laser. Lesser of two evils and whatnot.

 

I largely agree, though I did hear one particularly ironic statement from an NTC official along the lines of 'We will give Gaddafi a fair trial, and then he will be killed by firing squad'.

 

On the issue of the CIA/MI6, it goes much deeper than being the 'lesser of two evils'. Our intelligence agencies encouraged Gaddafi to torture because it was useful to us, and then we scorn him for it (admittedly, he did it long before and would have done it anyway, but it becomes contradictory after our encouragement of such acts). I think there is a difference between exchanging intelligence and whatnot and using Libyan prisons as a sort of Guantánamo Bay in Africa. MI6 and the CIA need to face up to this, apologise, and move on.

 

@Dizzle: not to mention the situation in Bani Walid, Sabha and a few other desert towns.

Let's hope that backing the rebels doesn't come back to bite us in the ass again. Just like Osama and Saddam.

[magekillr]

Rebel forces and armed civilians are rounding up thousands of black Libyans and migrants from sub-Sahara Africa, accusing them of fighting for ousted strongman Moammar Gadhafi and holding them in makeshift jails across the capital.

 

Virtually all of the detainees say they are innocent migrant workers, and in most cases there is no evidence that they are lying. But that is not stopping the rebels from placing the men in facilities like the Gate of the Sea sports club, where about 200 detainees — all black — clustered on a soccer field this week, bunching against a high wall to avoid the scorching sun.

 

Handling the prisoners is one of the first major tests for the rebel leaders, who are scrambling to set up a government that they promise will respect human rights and international norms, unlike the dictatorship they overthrew.

The rebels' National Transitional Council has called on fighters not to abuse prisoners and says those accused of crimes will receive fair trials.There has been little credible evidence of rebels killing or systematically abusing captives during the six-month conflict. Still, the African Union and Amnesty International have protested the treatment of blacks inside Libya, saying there is a potential for serious abuse.

 

Libyan rebels round up black Africans

 

I hope to be wrong in opposing this military adventure, but according to some sources, over 50,000 people have died so far. In my more honest assessment, rather than the [cabbage] Dennis Ross was peddling, that is more people than would have died had Gaddafi just snuffed the rebellion from the get-go (purely speculative, of course). I don't buy that he was going to massacre hundreds of thousands, nor do I believe a genocide was imminent. This doesn't even include the people who might die if civil war breaks out among the tribes.

[Giordano]

Oh poor Americans, their military is responsible for killing and torture of innocents. And people ask why I don't support the armed forces.

 

"oh they help ppls" :roll:

 

 

 

Let's hope that backing the rebels doesn't come back to bite us in the ass again. Just like Osama and Saddam.

Helping established dictators will bite us in the ass much more often than rising democracies.

 

Plus we never helped Osama; you're getting confused with the Taliban.

[magekillr]

 

Let's hope that backing the rebels doesn't come back to bite us in the ass again. Just like Osama and Saddam.

Helping established dictators will bite us in the ass much more often than rising democracies.

 

Plus we never helped Osama; you're getting confused with the Taliban.

 

Well not only helping them, but ensuring that they stay in place, sometimes being in place because we put them there in the first place. I'm sure Mr. Obama, Mrs. Clinton and the Zionists were crying themselves to sleep when Mubarak was forced off stage.

 

We didn't "help" Osama directly, but we provided money and arms for the mujahideen, something he was a part of. Some like to claim we trained him, but it's not true (so in that respect you're right). They (the mujahideen) were also different from the Taliban.

[Will H]

A worthy bump. The NTC has consistently impressed me as capable and rational as a transitional government can be. Here's a copy of a draft of the constitution that is currently being drawn up, the NTC will only ratify it if two-thirds of the population agree to it:

 

http://www.al-bab.co...ional-Stage.pdf

 

Make no mistake, Libya isn't going to be like "western" countries like the US or the UK, and neither should it be, but it does look democratic. I like it, it does its best to reduce corruption, but otherwise in many aspects it's very liberal. What do you guys think of it?

 

As for the CIA and MI6 having worked with Gaddafi, it really doesn't surprise me. Nobody liked him, but the man had oil and the capacity to directly influence the world economies. We can all easily be horrified and ridicule them, but really, any rational person would at least talk with Doctor Evil if he could significantly damage their country with a moon-laser. Lesser of two evils and whatnot.

 

I largely agree, though I did hear one particularly ironic statement from an NTC official along the lines of 'We will give Gaddafi a fair trial, and then he will be killed by firing squad'.

 

On the issue of the CIA/MI6, it goes much deeper than being the 'lesser of two evils'. Our intelligence agencies encouraged Gaddafi to torture because it was useful to us, and then we scorn him for it (admittedly, he did it long before and would have done it anyway, but it becomes contradictory after our encouragement of such acts). I think there is a difference between exchanging intelligence and whatnot and using Libyan prisons as a sort of Guantánamo Bay in Africa. MI6 and the CIA need to face up to this, apologise, and move on.

 

@Dizzle: not to mention the situation in Bani Walid, Sabha and a few other desert towns.

 

Heh, they're already making gaffes.

 

Anyway, in retrospect, I am oversimplifying the whole CIA/MI6/Gaddafi thing, but that's something that a full investigation needs to deal with. I'm just saying that we shouldn't be shocked that some amount of cooperation occurred. If what you're saying about torture is right, though, then that needs to be dealt with immediately.

Oh poor Americans, their military is responsible for killing and torture of innocents. And people ask why I don't support the armed forces.

 

"oh they help ppls" :roll:

 

That's generalising it, a bit, isn't it? The American military isn't some kind of single entity that can be held 'responsible' for small-scale actions like that. Blame the minority of bad eggs that make those decisions instead of tarnishing them all with the same brush.

 

Also, no need to give people you disagree with an image of someone who uses bad spelling and grammar.

[tml]

Rebel forces and armed civilians are rounding up thousands of black Libyans and migrants from sub-Sahara Africa, accusing them of fighting for ousted strongman Moammar Gadhafi and holding them in makeshift jails across the capital.

 

Virtually all of the detainees say they are innocent migrant workers, and in most cases there is no evidence that they are lying. But that is not stopping the rebels from placing the men in facilities like the Gate of the Sea sports club, where about 200 detainees — all black — clustered on a soccer field this week, bunching against a high wall to avoid the scorching sun.

 

Handling the prisoners is one of the first major tests for the rebel leaders, who are scrambling to set up a government that they promise will respect human rights and international norms, unlike the dictatorship they overthrew.

The rebels' National Transitional Council has called on fighters not to abuse prisoners and says those accused of crimes will receive fair trials.There has been little credible evidence of rebels killing or systematically abusing captives during the six-month conflict. Still, the African Union and Amnesty International have protested the treatment of blacks inside Libya, saying there is a potential for serious abuse.

 

Libyan rebels round up black Africans

 

I hope to be wrong in opposing this military adventure, but according to some sources, over 50,000 people have died so far. In my more honest assessment, rather than the [cabbage] Dennis Ross was peddling, that is more people than would have died had Gaddafi just snuffed the rebellion from the get-go (purely speculative, of course). I don't buy that he was going to massacre hundreds of thousands, nor do I believe a genocide was imminent. This doesn't even include the people who might die if civil war breaks out among the tribes.

 

Same talking points that have been used before. Do you see evidence of a "tribal war" breaking out? The media, with all its lust for a "tribal war" has been proven wrong again and again on that front.

 

"I don't buy that he was going to massacre hundreds of thousands, nor do I believe a genocide was imminent. "

 

Really? A man who killed 1,200 people over a few hours wouldn't kill that many? He burned the Green Mountain with napalm when a small uprising took place there in the late 90s.

 

As for the bs about rounding up "black Libyans and migrants", at least their arguments have improved from telling us that "there are black Libyans!!!" as if we didn't know. Black Libyans are no different then any other Libyans, some are dogs but most are not.

 

 

 

As for "snuffing" out the revolution, don't fool yourself. Once it spread to Zintan in the Nafoosa Mountaints (on Feb 16) and to Tripoli (initially on Feb 17 but with the major protests occurring on the 20th) and then to Misrata and Zawia and yes even Bin Wleed and Sabha in the days that followed, the writing was on the wall. Had the UN not intervened the fight would have lasted longer, and been bloodier but the revolution was too widespread to be "snuffed" out. We are a people that fought the Italians for 20 years with hunting rifles, in which a quarter of the population was killed while in internment camps.

 

Do you think the US and Europe would have gotten involved if Bo Shafshoufa could have "snuffed" it out? That would have been the best outcome for them because he had just become friends with them. But they saw that the revolution wasn't going to stop, and decided that their involvement could help speed up its victory. The longer it would have dragged on the worse it would be on them.

 

Mercenaries?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnWpeQKDCgA

 

The revolutionaries are of greater character and are kinder then the the entirety of the armchairs at Amnesty International combined (the AU of course doesn't even measure, which is why no one cares about it).

At 1:00+ see how they treat a dying enemy who had killed many of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStYUWymiPA

 

I never figured you to be a pessimist mage. News about Kucinich have you down?

[magekillr]

Rebel forces and armed civilians are rounding up thousands of black Libyans and migrants from sub-Sahara Africa, accusing them of fighting for ousted strongman Moammar Gadhafi and holding them in makeshift jails across the capital.

 

Virtually all of the detainees say they are innocent migrant workers, and in most cases there is no evidence that they are lying. But that is not stopping the rebels from placing the men in facilities like the Gate of the Sea sports club, where about 200 detainees — all black — clustered on a soccer field this week, bunching against a high wall to avoid the scorching sun.

 

Handling the prisoners is one of the first major tests for the rebel leaders, who are scrambling to set up a government that they promise will respect human rights and international norms, unlike the dictatorship they overthrew.

The rebels' National Transitional Council has called on fighters not to abuse prisoners and says those accused of crimes will receive fair trials.There has been little credible evidence of rebels killing or systematically abusing captives during the six-month conflict. Still, the African Union and Amnesty International have protested the treatment of blacks inside Libya, saying there is a potential for serious abuse.

 

Libyan rebels round up black Africans

 

I hope to be wrong in opposing this military adventure, but according to some sources, over 50,000 people have died so far. In my more honest assessment, rather than the [cabbage] Dennis Ross was peddling, that is more people than would have died had Gaddafi just snuffed the rebellion from the get-go (purely speculative, of course). I don't buy that he was going to massacre hundreds of thousands, nor do I believe a genocide was imminent. This doesn't even include the people who might die if civil war breaks out among the tribes.

 

Same talking points that have been used before. Do you see evidence of a "tribal war" breaking out? The media, with all its lust for a "tribal war" has been proven wrong again and again on that front.

 

I said "if," not "when." I REALLY hope it does not, but we won't know for a while. We also won't know if Gaddafi is better or worse for quite possibly years to come.

 

Really? A man who killed 1,200 people over a few hours wouldn't kill that many? He burned the Green Mountain with napalm when a small uprising took place there in the late 90s.

 

I'm not saying he wouldn't, but I have reason to suspect that this was not a factual claim. See Daniel Larison: The Weak Justification for the Libyan War

 

Specifically where Paul Miller is quoted:

 

Qaddafi has certainly committed crimes against humanity in this brief war, but R2P was designed to stop widespread, systematic, sustained, orchestrated crimes. If Qaddafi’s barbarity meets that threshold, the administration hasn’t made the case yet, and I’m not convinced.

 

One of the main reasons for my opposition to interventions like these is that I don't know the culture, and I sure as hell know that the administration doesn't know it all that well either (our diplomats don't even speak Arabic for god's sake!) The other part of my opposition, however, is that I do not trust the US government's military or CIA. We do not go do humanitarian stuff for the hell of it; there is always an ulterior motive, and it almost always ends up worse than had we not intervened at all.

 

As for "snuffing" out the revolution, don't fool yourself. Once it spread to Zintan in the Nafoosa Mountaints (on Feb 16) and to Tripoli (initially on Feb 17 but with the major protests occurring on the 20th) and then to Misrata and Zawia and yes even Bin Wleed and Sabha in the days that followed, the writing was on the wall. Had the UN not intervened the fight would have lasted longer, and been bloodier but the revolution was too widespread to be "snuffed" out. We are a people that fought the Italians for 20 years with hunting rifles, in which a quarter of the population was killed while in internment camps.

 

I assume you're Libyan yourself by the wording of this graf? If so you obviously know more than I do, but I just don't agree. I think the fighting would have ended more quickly, as without UN intervention the rebels were clearly losing a lot of momentum. Now, could it have been bloodier? Well, perhaps. As I said, then we're getting into purely speculative claims, and we don't have two Earths to experiment with (nor do I want to experiment with something like anyway). Let's also not forget that war goes beyond blood, and leaves a torn infrastructure. I think I read that this will take over a decade to rebuild (I think it will take longer than that). Now there's the speculation again: had it been dragged out longer, more infrastructure would have been destroyed.

 

Also, I do not believe in outside forces taking sides in a civil war. That's how World Wars can start: through entangled alliances. I'm not saying this was likely to start a world war, but the precedent it sets could in some future conflict.

 

You believe one side, I believe another. In this sense, I don't believe either of us will be convinced.

 

Do you think the US and Europe would have gotten involved if Bo Shafshoufa could have "snuffed" it out? That would have been the best outcome for them because he had just become friends with them. But they saw that the revolution wasn't going to stop, and decided that their involvement could help speed up its victory. The longer it would have dragged on the worse it would be on them.

 

Oh certainly it would have been bad for them had it gotten dragged out. I think a large reason Sarkozy got involved was pure politics, and judging by some polling numbers, it did its job.

 

I'll agree to disagree about the Amnesty hit :P

 

I never figured you to be a pessimist mage. News about Kucinich have you down?

 

Heh, I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. I just don't trust the Empire nor its military to bring about the Peace in situations such as these. I mean, look at this from just the other day:

 

"We like and appreciate what NATO did for us," a smiling Belhadj said in an interview Saturday, referring to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization bombing campaign against Kadafi's forces. "We now have a popular Libyan revolution that doesn't have any Islamic ideology." Belhadj conceded that he might sue the CIA — he alleges that he was tortured while in its custody in Bangkok, Thailand — but said he didn't have any hard feelings against the United States or the West. He said his group had rejected overtures to affiliate with Al Qaeda and that Libya's new government will not be Islamist..."Belhadj is a bad man," said one former CIA operative with long experience in the Middle East who declined to be identified. "He's a capable Al Qaeda field leader.... Belhadj was a serious enough actor for us to find him, kidnap him and render him. He's somehow had a conversion to democracy? What do they base that on? It's just a pipe dream." But the official U.S. position is a stated belief in the new Libyan leadership's professed desire for a representative and democratic state after more than four decades of Kadafi's autocratic rule

 

Now it's entirely too early to conclude anything about whether it was the right or wrong decision in my opinion, but I will give you this: thus far, it's gone about as well as it could have possibly gone. For that I am grateful.

[The Dark Lord]

Rebel forces and armed civilians are rounding up thousands of black Libyans and migrants from sub-Sahara Africa, accusing them of fighting for ousted strongman Moammar Gadhafi and holding them in makeshift jails across the capital.

 

Virtually all of the detainees say they are innocent migrant workers, and in most cases there is no evidence that they are lying. But that is not stopping the rebels from placing the men in facilities like the Gate of the Sea sports club, where about 200 detainees all black clustered on a soccer field this week, bunching against a high wall to avoid the scorching sun.

 

Handling the prisoners is one of the first major tests for the rebel leaders, who are scrambling to set up a government that they promise will respect human rights and international norms, unlike the dictatorship they overthrew.

The rebels' National Transitional Council has called on fighters not to abuse prisoners and says those accused of crimes will receive fair trials.There has been little credible evidence of rebels killing or systematically abusing captives during the six-month conflict. Still, the African Union and Amnesty International have protested the treatment of blacks inside Libya, saying there is a potential for serious abuse.

 

Libyan rebels round up black Africans

 

I hope to be wrong in opposing this military adventure, but according to some sources, over 50,000 people have died so far. In my more honest assessment, rather than the [cabbage] Dennis Ross was peddling, that is more people than would have died had Gaddafi just snuffed the rebellion from the get-go (purely speculative, of course). I don't buy that he was going to massacre hundreds of thousands, nor do I believe a genocide was imminent. This doesn't even include the people who might die if civil war breaks out among the tribes.

 

Same talking points that have been used before. Do you see evidence of a "tribal war" breaking out? The media, with all its lust for a "tribal war" has been proven wrong again and again on that front.

 

"I don't buy that he was going to massacre hundreds of thousands, nor do I believe a genocide was imminent. "

 

Really? A man who killed 1,200 people over a few hours wouldn't kill that many? He burned the Green Mountain with napalm when a small uprising took place there in the late 90s.

 

As for the bs about rounding up "black Libyans and migrants", at least their arguments have improved from telling us that "there are black Libyans!!!" as if we didn't know. Black Libyans are no different then any other Libyans, some are dogs but most are not.

 

 

 

As for "snuffing" out the revolution, don't fool yourself. Once it spread to Zintan in the Nafoosa Mountaints (on Feb 16) and to Tripoli (initially on Feb 17 but with the major protests occurring on the 20th) and then to Misrata and Zawia and yes even Bin Wleed and Sabha in the days that followed, the writing was on the wall. Had the UN not intervened the fight would have lasted longer, and been bloodier but the revolution was too widespread to be "snuffed" out. We are a people that fought the Italians for 20 years with hunting rifles, in which a quarter of the population was killed while in internment camps.

 

Do you think the US and Europe would have gotten involved if Bo Shafshoufa could have "snuffed" it out? That would have been the best outcome for them because he had just become friends with them. But they saw that the revolution wasn't going to stop, and decided that their involvement could help speed up its victory. The longer it would have dragged on the worse it would be on them.

 

Mercenaries?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnWpeQKDCgA

 

The revolutionaries are of greater character and are kinder then the the entirety of the armchairs at Amnesty International combined (the AU of course doesn't even measure, which is why no one cares about it).

At 1:00+ see how they treat a dying enemy who had killed many of them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStYUWymiPA

 

I never figured you to be a pessimist mage. News about Kucinich have you down?

 

Just curious, but are you a rebel soldier?

[Crocefisso]

^ tml has a hardline anti-Gaddafi stance that is so exaggerated it's largely fictional. I knew he'd pop up here sooner or later.

 

PS: tml, I'd love to know who killed General Younes - which faction of the NTC was it?

[tml]

Just curious, but are you a rebel soldier?

 

Unfortunately no. I'm a Libyan who was unable to return and help his brethren.

 

 

^ tml has a hardline anti-Gaddafi stance that is so exaggerated it's largely fictional. I knew he'd pop up here sooner or later.

 

PS: tml, I'd love to know who killed General Younes - which faction of the NTC was it?

 

 

"so exaggerated" ? Says someone who wasn't forced to live his entire life in exile unable to meet, and for a while even to talk to over the phone, with ones family. Every word said in conversation has to be carefully thought out for fear of family back home, and for a while when Bu Shafshoufas dogs where killing people overseas, even for onesself.

 

No, you're some spoiled bleeding-heart liberal born with a silver-spoon in his month and pissed because time has proven me right and you utterly wrong.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0IrXZvt_HM

 

 

You think my feelings are exaggerated? You know nothing about Libya and its people.

 

Hear that emotion?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwQn1R8If9A

 

 

To you its nothing, just prisoners being broken out. To us its the most honoured of Libyans being released from a prison of death and torture. Here is the story of just one of its prisoners(from Zawia) as he spoke out, was arrested in the Seige of Zawia and freed by residents of Bu Sleem district when Tripoli was liberated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYqtpxK8VaA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybaFrTSd2W0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSldYKoFfoM

 

 

See how fast Tripoli was freed? Less then a day. Aside from a few pockets the entire city liberated itself before outside reinforcements arrived. Once its residents had the means to fight back, they overwhelmed the dogs.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp3LkylaWHE

 

 

the "massacres" of civilians of late are largely a bunch of lies (the 'civilians' he was allegedly killing just so happened to be holding guns and riding around in pick up trucks with machine guns on the back),

 

Qaddafi made the Libyan people far richer, and so in my books he was a good national leader

 

But Qaddafi - who dared to use tear gas on protesters who burnt cars in Tripoli

 

I will post, for the third time, Bu Shafshoufas response to protests in Tripoli on Feb 20. Ignore it again why don't you.

 

This is tear gas?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl4b-rHsOJU

 

Or how about all these munitions hidden under civilian buildings? This is where the leader that made us "richer" spent our wealth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqyvgc_DGyM

 

His mercenaries get money for fighting for him. The African dictators + Venezuela get gold and money for supporting him. You get nothing, so why do you?

 

I'll ask again, why do you hate the Libyan people so?

[The Dark Lord]

PS: tml, I'd love to know who killed General Younes - which faction of the NTC was it?

 

How do you know he wasn't killed by a spy pretending to be on the rebel's side?

[Crocefisso]

tml,

 

I can't be bothered to go back into the old 'how much support does Gaddafi have' argument. You've finally admitted to never having lived in Libya, and what I think you need to understand is that all the videos of support for the rebels you post are of a tiny proportion of the population of 6 million. This is not to say that the rebels don't have a majority of the support from the Libyan people - they do - but acting like nobody supports Gaddafi and anyone who disagrees is heartless and wants to oppress Libya and its people is not a rational argument. A few always will, be they Libyans or Tuareg rebels from Niger that Gaddafi supported or whatever. Do I think they're right to? No. But polarising things never helps anybody. For example:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0XsF03fNM4

[tml]

tml,

 

I can't be bothered to go back into the old 'how much support does Gaddafi have' argument. You've finally admitted to never having lived in Libya, and what I think you need to understand is that all the videos of support for the rebels you post are of a tiny proportion of the population of 6 million. This is not to say that the rebels don't have a majority of the support from the Libyan people - they do - but acting like nobody supports Gaddafi and anyone who disagrees is heartless and wants to oppress Libya and its people is not a rational argument. A few always will, be they Libyans or Tuareg rebels from Niger that Gaddafi supported or whatever. Do I think they're right to? No. But polarising things never helps anybody. For example:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0XsF03fNM4

 

You've again failed to acknowledge your incorrect and heartless comment, yes heartless because of your tone and what you said, that Tripoli's protests, and that of other cities, were met with tear gas, instead of anti-air weapons, and that people picked up weapons from the get-go, effectively calling all the video evidence lies, along with all the people who died. After this I will ignore your posts until you do.

 

but acting like nobody supports Gaddafi

 

I never said he had no support, it is in fact you who said he had majority support, and are now backtracking.

 

what I think you need to understand is that all the videos of support for the rebels you post are of a tiny proportion of the population of 6 million.

 

Really? I didn't know that a video of a hundred people was but a portion of 6 million people.

The videos I post are from different cities, and different districts in these cities, at different time periods from each city, and from a wide array of sources, which can then be accurately extrapolated to be the opinion of the vast majority.

 

 

As for the video, two points.

 

1.

Foreign media had been in Tripoli for months at that point, they weren't taken to film it or even told about it. This from a regime that takes them to film holes in the ground in the dead of night. Why? Stagecraft.

On the other hand, now they go where they will, film what they want and talk to whom they wish.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHyC4FMCEgI

 

2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnWpeQKDCgA

[Will H]

tml, and anyone else doing the same, I'd appreciate it if you either didn't post so many videos or at least put them in hide tags if you post a lot of them. I'm trying not to enforce things until necessary, it's just that it's more convenient for everyone if debates were said with words and only punctuated with media when appropriate instead of the other way around. Also, Crocefisso is not being heartless, please don't say that. He's entitled to his opinion, as are you.

 

There are the small minority of legitimate supporters of Gaddafi in Libya and elsewhere, in thought and action. Then there's the majority of people who were forced to show support Gaddafi when his regime was in power, and were in fact apathetic or anti-Gaddafi in thought. Finally, there are the tiny minority of the hardline rebels who did not show support for him on principle, on threat of imprisonment or worse. We all know this, it's the only rational explanation for why we saw huge pro-Gaddafi rallies shortly followed by equally huge anti-Gaddafi rallies when the rebels took over.

[The_Gabe]

Gaddafi is dead.

[Dizzle229]

Saw the vid. Assuming it's real, I'm annoyed.

 

While he definitely should have been executed, this was completely barbaric, unless he was already dead (hard to tell). I think that a person should ALWAYS stand trial, if at all possible. Imagine if we had video of a bin Laden trial, actually getting to hear what he had to say. They wouldn't stand a chance in hell, of course, but for the historical record it would be worth it.

[obfuscator]

Wasn't he killed in a gunfight?

[Dizzle229]

Wasn't he killed in a gunfight?

Apparently he was at least wounded.

[The Dark Lord]

They should've given him a trial.

[magekillr]

I still don't support Obama's decision to go into Libya -- until there's a new government there I doubt I'll have the information necessary to admit I was wrong or right, either. I think the reason we helped was because of Europe's fragile situation; what would happen if thousands (or worse, millions) of refugees fled there? Anyway, events seem to show that he met the situation with near-perfect balance. The contrast between him and Bush on international conflict is extreme.

[stevepole]

I think the intent is to build new relations. France and England have already made a joint trips to Libya last month.

[Giordano]

What good would a trial be? A anti-Gaddafi jury pardoning him? The man was a politician; a hated one. What happened there is such the circle of life.

[Crocefisso]

The proper thing to do would indeed have been a trial. Anyone who actually saw the videos of him can see that this was a barbaric act, and gives me little faith for the future of Libya if it is to be run by such people.

[Will H]

The proper thing to do would indeed have been a trial. Anyone who actually saw the videos of him can see that this was a barbaric act, and gives me little faith for the future of Libya if it is to be run by such people.

 

Yeah, Gaddafi should have been put on trial, but the nature of the situation made capturing him alive really unlikely. He's a dictator who has ordered his own people to be killed, and then deposed by a popular uprising and engaged in a civil war. He was then stubborn enough to stay and fight in the last stronghold in the country that supported to him until he was practically the last one left. Is it really surprising he was killed?

 

A trial would have been better because we might be able to extract information about incidents such as the Lockerbie bombing that we otherwise could not. There's probably a few important facts that have died with him.

 

On the plus side, I'm really surprised that he was actually found and neutralised in the first place. That in itself has safely removed any excuse the NTC could have for not declaring 'Liberation' in the constitution and set deadlines for elections and transition to democracy. In fact, I've heard they're going to declare it tomorrow.