Libya Uprising thread

[mcneilp]

Seemingly they did capture him alive but he was killed in a gunfight during transit to a hospital.

I'd have liked him to stand trial mainly, as Will said, we'd be able to get information about the Lockerbie bombing, amongst other things. That was a big point in most of the papers up here today.

[1_man_army]

I have certain misgivings about how he died, as others have said a full trial would have been much more favourable and it seems that he was summarily excecuted (the cross-fire argument doesn't seem to have any supporting evidence at this point). However, I can understand why it happened in the way that it did, according to some reports it was fighters from Misrata that captured Gaddafi and considering how that city was effected during this war (& in the 40 plus years of the regime) I can see why the fighters did what they did even if I don't agree with it. That all being said, I do find a rich irony in his widow demanding a full enquiry into how he died considering how his regime have killed without mercy for the last few decades and specifically how he has killed innocent civilians during this war.

 

Now that Libya has been literally - any more importantly - liberated from Gaddafi and his regime, the real tough work has to start. The political transition process needs to get underway quickly and in a way that is able to keep the various factions happy to an extent. They can't be seen to just be a Benghazi clique. The oil money could either be the biggest gift for the NTC - allowing them to start rebuilding quickly and getting the nation on a footing for a democratic future, or it could become a curse with every faction fighting or a bigger share. Luckily the oil is fairly spread across Libya so hopefully that doesn't become a problem. Another issue is that Libya has almost zero infrastructure because of how Gaddafi's regime function (or more imporantly didn't) and creating the apparatus of government with ministries and services will be difficult in a nation that isn't used to them and has no history of democracy or accountable governance.

 

I'm hopeful for Libya though, I don't have the same pessimism I had after Iraq, there doesn't seem to be ethnic tension, the real risk as I see it is factionalism between brigades who fought and disagreements with (and within) the NTC. However, if they ensure that the transition is fully enclusive and not dominated by one or two factions then I think the transition can be a long term success. It won't be without problems though but are revolutions and transitions ever easy and clear cut?

[tml]

They should've given him a trial.

 

 

Not that I think they killed him after capturing him, a doctor on the ambulance that carried him back said he died of wounds on the way, and its clear he had a wound on his head from the videos, but good riddance.

 

What would be happening now if he was a prisoner?

 

We would've wanted him to be tried in Libya but everyone else would be pushing for the ICC, which is not acceptable since the worst he'll get is life in a 5 star prison. You also have the nutcases Zuma and Chavez who would no doubt be pushing for him to be released into exile.

 

The way it went down was best.

 

And Dizzle, with all due respect you don't know how much we hate him and the extent to which we've all suffered under him. Lockerbie is but an item in a long list. He was treated no worse than he deserved. Let this serve as a warning to Assad and Saleh.

 

It's also fitting that the brigade that captured him consisted of people from a district in Misrata that suffered the most during the Siege.

[The Dark Lord]

By the way, NTC lied about Gaddafi's death. He was NOT killed in a crossfire. He was dragged out of a drainage pipe, beaten and held onto the back of a vehicle by several rebel fighters while people filmed him, and then he was shot in the gut.

 

It's a shame that the NTC said such a blatant lie about this considering that there were videos everywhere showing Gaddafi being held down while begging for his life while rebel fighters were laughing at him right before he was shot. There was no crossfire. This lie makes me doubt the NTC's capacity to create a truly democratic government in Libya.

[i_love_burritos]

Yep Gaddfi is dead, should have been tried at the ICC or something. Unfortuante. In any case this is not going to turn out well for Libya.

 

-Gadaffi about to crush rebel opposition at the gates of benghazi (these rebel "fighters" pretty much run around firing their AKs in the air and running in the opposite direction)

-NATO steps in with the bombing, changes entire scope of the conflict

-NATO [bleep]s off now, multiple rebel factions in libya, no means of

-power vacuum, now it'll likely go the way egypt went (is going).

 

Will take much time for libya to "normalize"

[tml]

By the way, NTC lied about Gaddafi's death. He was NOT killed in a crossfire. He was dragged out of a drainage pipe, beaten and held onto the back of a vehicle by several rebel fighters while people filmed him, and then he was shot in the gut.

 

It's a shame that the NTC said such a blatant lie about this considering that there were videos everywhere showing Gaddafi being held down while begging for his life while rebel fighters were laughing at him right before he was shot. There was no crossfire. This lie makes me doubt the NTC's capacity to create a truly democratic government in Libya.

 

 

And you have a credible source for your sequence of events? A video of the final shot maybe?

 

No, because thats not how it went down. A doctor on the ambulance that carried him back said he died of wounds on the way. Wounds that he clearly had as he was being dragged out of the hole as seen in the videos.

 

Also, I'm sure we all are saddened by your doubts of the NTC.

 

 

-Gadaffi about to crush rebel opposition at the gates of benghazi (these rebel "fighters" pretty much run around firing their AKs in the air and running in the opposite direction)

 

Crush the revolutionaries? Misrata held out a number of months( and won) in a siege and it's a smaller city than Benghazi. Zawia is a much smaller city than both and managed to hold out for a month. He would have killed a lot but not been able to take the city.

 

Also, at that point in time a number of areas in the Nafoosa Mountains were free, Tripoli had just had it's protests crushed and was gathering weaponry for a second attempt, though with weapons this time. Every single city in Libya had protests on Feb 20. Zawia had just fallen to Bu Shafshoufas forces and Misrata was under siege.

 

NATO ran the numbers and saw that it wouldn't end soon. Or do you think they intervened to "get the oil"? Because they already had a loyal dog in Bu Shafshoufa and his sons.

 

-NATO steps in with the bombing, changes entire scope of the conflict

 

The revolutionaries are the ones who actively fought and won territory before and after NATO, planes can't hold territory, especially not in urban warfare.

 

 

-power vacuum, now it'll likely go the way egypt went (is going).

 

You are obviously such an expert on these matters comparing Egypt and Libya. You'll want to review the revolutions in both countries again.

 

-NATO [bleep]s off now, multiple rebel factions in libya, no means of

...

Will take much time for libya to "normalize"

 

Ah yes another Libya expert, just like those in the media who have been harping on about "tribal war" for so long now. Didn't they expect the blood to run in the streets of Tripoli because "this is a major bastion of support for Bu Shafshoufa" ? How did that end up? Oh yeah the city was pretty much liberated internally hours before outside forces reached Janzour and a day before they reached Tajoura.

[The Dark Lord]

By the way, NTC lied about Gaddafi's death. He was NOT killed in a crossfire. He was dragged out of a drainage pipe, beaten and held onto the back of a vehicle by several rebel fighters while people filmed him, and then he was shot in the gut.

 

It's a shame that the NTC said such a blatant lie about this considering that there were videos everywhere showing Gaddafi being held down while begging for his life while rebel fighters were laughing at him right before he was shot. There was no crossfire. This lie makes me doubt the NTC's capacity to create a truly democratic government in Libya.

 

 

And you have a credible source for your sequence of events? A video of the final shot maybe?

 

No, because thats not how it went down. A doctor on the ambulance that carried him back said he died of wounds on the way. Wounds that he clearly had as he was being dragged out of the hole as seen in the videos.

 

Also, I'm sure we all are saddened by your doubts of the NTC.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15390188

 

I could be wrong, but it definitely doesn't look like he was wounded in a crossfire.

[tml]

By the way, NTC lied about Gaddafi's death. He was NOT killed in a crossfire. He was dragged out of a drainage pipe, beaten and held onto the back of a vehicle by several rebel fighters while people filmed him, and then he was shot in the gut.

 

It's a shame that the NTC said such a blatant lie about this considering that there were videos everywhere showing Gaddafi being held down while begging for his life while rebel fighters were laughing at him right before he was shot. There was no crossfire. This lie makes me doubt the NTC's capacity to create a truly democratic government in Libya.

 

 

And you have a credible source for your sequence of events? A video of the final shot maybe?

 

No, because thats not how it went down. A doctor on the ambulance that carried him back said he died of wounds on the way. Wounds that he clearly had as he was being dragged out of the hole as seen in the videos.

 

Also, I'm sure we all are saddened by your doubts of the NTC.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15390188

 

I could be wrong, but it definitely doesn't look like he was wounded in a crossfire.

 

No not in a crossfire. But as this picture shows he was clearly suffering from his head wound before becoming a prisoner.

 

 

 

[1_man_army]

By the way, NTC lied about Gaddafi's death. He was NOT killed in a crossfire. He was dragged out of a drainage pipe, beaten and held onto the back of a vehicle by several rebel fighters while people filmed him, and then he was shot in the gut.

 

It's a shame that the NTC said such a blatant lie about this considering that there were videos everywhere showing Gaddafi being held down while begging for his life while rebel fighters were laughing at him right before he was shot. There was no crossfire. This lie makes me doubt the NTC's capacity to create a truly democratic government in Libya.

 

 

And you have a credible source for your sequence of events? A video of the final shot maybe?

 

No, because thats not how it went down. A doctor on the ambulance that carried him back said he died of wounds on the way. Wounds that he clearly had as he was being dragged out of the hole as seen in the videos.

 

Also, I'm sure we all are saddened by your doubts of the NTC.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15390188

 

I could be wrong, but it definitely doesn't look like he was wounded in a crossfire.

 

No not in a crossfire. But as this picture shows he was clearly suffering from his head wound before becoming a prisoner.

 

 

 

 

It does seem that he was bleeding from the head when he was captured (as your image shows) but the doctors said he died from a bullet wound to the head which I would think would kill instantly. I would like to be wrong though and I'm still open to seeing any further evidence that comes out but from what I see so far it looks like he was excecuted. Not that this matters to those inside Libya from what is coming out of the country it seems like the way in which Gaddafi died isn't really a big issue to most, the debate seems to be mainly among outsiders.

[i_love_burritos]

[hide]

By the way, NTC lied about Gaddafi's death. He was NOT killed in a crossfire. He was dragged out of a drainage pipe, beaten and held onto the back of a vehicle by several rebel fighters while people filmed him, and then he was shot in the gut.

 

It's a shame that the NTC said such a blatant lie about this considering that there were videos everywhere showing Gaddafi being held down while begging for his life while rebel fighters were laughing at him right before he was shot. There was no crossfire. This lie makes me doubt the NTC's capacity to create a truly democratic government in Libya.

 

 

And you have a credible source for your sequence of events? A video of the final shot maybe?

 

No, because thats not how it went down. A doctor on the ambulance that carried him back said he died of wounds on the way. Wounds that he clearly had as he was being dragged out of the hole as seen in the videos.

 

Also, I'm sure we all are saddened by your doubts of the NTC.

 

 

-Gadaffi about to crush rebel opposition at the gates of benghazi (these rebel "fighters" pretty much run around firing their AKs in the air and running in the opposite direction)

 

Crush the revolutionaries? Misrata held out a number of months( and won) in a siege and it's a smaller city than Benghazi. Zawia is a much smaller city than both and managed to hold out for a month. He would have killed a lot but not been able to take the city.

 

Also, at that point in time a number of areas in the Nafoosa Mountains were free, Tripoli had just had it's protests crushed and was gathering weaponry for a second attempt, though with weapons this time. Every single city in Libya had protests on Feb 20. Zawia had just fallen to Bu Shafshoufas forces and Misrata was under siege.

 

NATO ran the numbers and saw that it wouldn't end soon. Or do you think they intervened to "get the oil"? Because they already had a loyal dog in Bu Shafshoufa and his sons.

 

-NATO steps in with the bombing, changes entire scope of the conflict

 

The revolutionaries are the ones who actively fought and won territory before and after NATO, planes can't hold territory, especially not in urban warfare.

 

 

-power vacuum, now it'll likely go the way egypt went (is going).

 

You are obviously such an expert on these matters comparing Egypt and Libya. You'll want to review the revolutions in both countries again.

 

-NATO [bleep]s off now, multiple rebel factions in libya, no means of

...

Will take much time for libya to "normalize"

 

Ah yes another Libya expert, just like those in the media who have been harping on about "tribal war" for so long now. Didn't they expect the blood to run in the streets of Tripoli because "this is a major bastion of support for Bu Shafshoufa" ? How did that end up? Oh yeah the city was pretty much liberated internally hours before outside forces reached Janzour and a day before they reached Tajoura.

[/hide]

 

yep, you seem to be much more knowledgeable. I was just commenting based on what I had been reading in the newspaper and various editorials. settle down

[Will H]

I'm not sure whether there's any point in talking about how Gaddafi died until we get the results of the post-mortem, which was a wise thing to do instead of burying him immediately according to Islamic tradition. The NTC wouldn't have enough information to say if it was crossfire, an execution, or something else at the time, so it's not lies, it's just rumours which may or may not be true.

-NATO [bleep]s off now, multiple rebel factions in libya, no means of

...

Will take much time for libya to "normalize"

 

Ah yes another Libya expert, just like those in the media who have been harping on about "tribal war" for so long now. Didn't they expect the blood to run in the streets of Tripoli because "this is a major bastion of support for Bu Shafshoufa" ? How did that end up? Oh yeah the city was pretty much liberated internally hours before outside forces reached Janzour and a day before they reached Tajoura.

 

As much as you make a few good points, my impression from the media was the correct view that the number of Gaddafi loyalists in Tripoli was a pretty unknown number. Thankfully, it was low, but it wasn't non-existent. I'm sure you can appreciate that there would be a higher percentage of support for him in the city that he poured quite a bit of money into, versus a city such as Benghazi which he openly distrusted. What can drive a man to fight for him though isn't an exact science. My point is, concerns for the bloodshed in Tripoli weren't unfounded, just be thankful it didn't happen.

 

Libya's got the best shot it has ever had to becoming a free, accountable and democratic country. I suppose we should expect the Libyan team to be under the new flag at London 2012?

[Crocefisso]

^ Yes, Libya's new flag is already in place.

 

Following the events of recent days, I have much respect for prime minister Mahmoud Jibril, whom I knew little about prior to these events.

[Kirschen]

Ceausescu was despised by his own people, but was given the decency of having a trial before quickly getting the firing squad. Don't see how Gaddafi should be treated differently.

 

Personally, I think he should've received *some* sort of trial, but it looks like people wanted barbaric revenge over civility. I don't know much, but at least there would be more use giving a tyrant a trial than resorting to the same tactics used by that person.

[tml]

People living peaceful spoiled lives with never a fear of anything more than a paper-cut are judging those who were besieged in their city for months, being killed and raped.

 

Do you want me to post pictures of people torn in two (in the protest phase so don't give me crap about them being fighters) by 15.5mm rounds? Nah, selective perception and all that. And don't give me the crap that "they're just as bad as him". Thats like comparing a vandal to a serial-killer. He didn't get 0.01% of what he deserved.

 

But then I guess it's easy for those who have no personal stake in this to take the "high ground" and go all philosophical.

 

At the end of the day the only opinions that matter are ours, and we very much support his death.

 

The station that was broadcasting his propaganda from Syria has kicked out the dogs that ran there after they couldn't broadcast from Libya due to "their encouraging of violence". No doubt the one who was paying the station took off with the money after he saw the game was up. That wouldn't be happening if Bu Shafshufa was still breathing. And like I said before, the people whining over his death, though only a few days and all is forgotten, would be whining louder and longer if he was a prisoner.

[The Dark Lord]

For people wondering what my post was about before it was removed, Gaddafi was sexually assaulted by rebel soldiers before they killed him.

 

And tml, I'm not exactly blaming the people who did what they did because it's understandable, but I think it was way over the top. Hell, it wouldn't have been right if Hitler was raped if he was captured. I don't care how many people he killed. What was being displayed in that video was pretty backwards and barbaric.

[ilovecuttingyews]

PopSci had an article this week about the engineering behind the rebels and there are 2 quotes that stood out to me

We were all civilians, engineers, technicians, store keepers, ladies' fashion retail owners, and drivers, we never wanted to do this, it was a necessity

When the war is over, Im going to remove all Ive seen and bury it. Erase it from my memory, were peaceful people

 

Essentially, 42 years of oppression can turn good people into war machines in order to secure their future. As with anything, most people know when to draw the line, but all it takes is 1 person with a 9mm who has a deep hatred for a man who caused so much pain for millions of people to take it too far. Hopefully now they can put this behind them and start to rebuild their country. They are rich enough in oil that, given a good and fair government, they have the potential to because a very strong, developed country.

[tml]

For people wondering what my post was about before it was removed, Gaddafi was sexually assaulted by rebel soldiers before they killed him.

 

And tml, I'm not exactly blaming the people who did what they did because it's understandable, but I think it was way over the top. Hell, it wouldn't have been right if Hitler was raped if he was captured. I don't care how many people he killed. What was being displayed in that video was pretty backwards and barbaric.

 

Wouldn't it be better defined as a stabbing rather then rape?

 

 

OrTradeMe, exactly. It was his luck that the brigade composed of residents of the district that suffered the most, in the city that suffered the most, found him.

[Crocefisso]

It's actually sodomisation.

[Polnar]

PopSci had an article this week about the engineering behind the rebels and there are 2 quotes that stood out to me

We were all civilians, engineers, technicians, store keepers, ladies' fashion retail owners, and drivers, we never wanted to do this, it was a necessity

When the war is over, Im going to remove all Ive seen and bury it. Erase it from my memory, were peaceful people

 

Essentially, 42 years of oppression can turn good people into war machines in order to secure their future. As with anything, most people know when to draw the line, but all it takes is 1 person with a 9mm who has a deep hatred for a man who caused so much pain for millions of people to take it too far. Hopefully now they can put this behind them and start to rebuild their country. They are rich enough in oil that, given a good and fair government, they have the potential to because a very strong, developed country.

 

 

They are rich enough in oil that, given a good and fair government, they have the potential to because a very strong, developed country.

 

gl with that

[Giordano]

Nevermind.

[Crocefisso]

 

They are rich enough in oil that, given a good and fair government, they have the potential to because a very strong, developed country.

 

gl with that

 

They also have to built a democratic culture from a decentralised tribal one without any real institutions - ie, much harder than Tunisia or Egypt. Misrata have already been complaining about things.

[1_man_army]

 

They are rich enough in oil that, given a good and fair government, they have the potential to because a very strong, developed country.

 

gl with that

 

They also have to built a democratic culture from a decentralised tribal one without any real institutions - ie, much harder than Tunisia or Egypt. Misrata have already been complaining about things.

 

There are going to be disputes & complaints about a lot of things, the important thing is how the various factions deal with the disputes. If they are able to agree to disagree and work together for the common good then tthey will be fine, if it becomes anything creates further bloodshed then it will get bad. I don't see the latter happening to be honest, the NTC seems to have dealt with the majority of the disputes that have come up well so far.