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Libya Uprising thread


The Dark Lord

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My best friend's brother is in the seventh fleet. We're just instituting a no-fly zone and protecting who we can. I doubt we'll have any boots on the ground; not in anything but support roles at least. As Rocco said, this is a French war that we're all getting dragged into due to common interests, not to mention for the Libyans themselves. Although I cannot support any violent revolution. It will only continue the cycle of oppression.

I don't think that's true - sometimes violence is necessary for revolution, and indeed has sometimes been successful. It really depends on who ends up in power afterwards - the american revolution for example was a violent one yet it managed to stop the oppression.

I disagree there. For one thing, it was a completely different time. The violence was quite small in scale, and it was more a war waged between two nations (well, parts of two nations - neither the Colonies nor Britain had their full power behind it) than a civil war/overthrow such as Libya's. There was little actual overthrow of government in the birth of the United States. It was more a separation, not a division. The American Civil War was similar. The Confederate States wanted to be their own nation to pursue their own goals, because the direction America was going did not further their own agenda. Obviously, it didn't work, but had they accomplished their goal, they may have succeeded due to the desire for separation rather than overthrow (I think I prefer that word here).

 

Now, I'm not saying violence won't happen, nor that it doesn't have its place. But when attempting to change government rather than start anew differently, violence cannot be the answer. I like to think of India here. Of course, that too was a separatist movement, but Britain had a much tighter hold on India than the American colonies. The nonviolence of the majority of the Indian peoples guaranteed support worldwide, and Britain gave them freedom. Had they waged a massive war, the results may very well have been different. Or the American Civil Rights movement. Segregation and racism may have taken complete control had a militant group like the Black Panthers led the movement rather than Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

I support Libya changing - it is needed, although I know embarrassingly little about Libya and its history. I just think a violent revolution will further the cycle of hatred. Those tossed out of power will sit bitterly until they can get their revenge. I like how Egypt went about it because, despite millions and millions of protesters, there was practically no violence in their demonstrations. Their reform looks to last, because so many people from all walks of life supported a peaceful change (widely speaking, of course there were instances of violence).

 

That's just my two cents, though. Maybe I'm a pacifist. It'll be fun to explain that to my recruiter.

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My best friend's brother is in the seventh fleet. We're just instituting a no-fly zone and protecting who we can. I doubt we'll have any boots on the ground; not in anything but support roles at least. As Rocco said, this is a French war that we're all getting dragged into due to common interests, not to mention for the Libyans themselves. Although I cannot support any violent revolution. It will only continue the cycle of oppression.

I don't think that's true - sometimes violence is necessary for revolution, and indeed has sometimes been successful. It really depends on who ends up in power afterwards - the american revolution for example was a violent one yet it managed to stop the oppression.

 

I agree. In this case, I don't think that it's really possible to end up with a worse outcome than the Libyan government right now.

 

Saif Gaddafi is such a slimy character. He just gives me the chills.

Edited by Will_H

~ W ~

 

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Although I cannot support any violent revolution. It will only continue the cycle of oppression.

 

Gadafii thought he would be smarter than Bin Ali and Mubarak and start off with deadly force from the get-go.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsUliy-UCu0

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHjhqR4WZw0

Zawya05.jpg

Zawya06.jpg

Zawya01.jpg

 

Libya is not the States where you can go to Walmart and buy guns, all the guns they have came from capturing those who were killing them. I wont post images but if you look for them you'll find them, people torn apart, split into two, from the use of heavy weaponry. A simple bullet will kill an unprotected protester, but he decided that using anti-air weapons, 14inch rounds, would frighten people more and thus end the protests.

 

300+ people were killed on the first day of protests in Tripoli, equivalent to the total dead in Egypt and Tunisia.

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Qathaffi should surrender now before he's blown to bits essentially. Any resistance is just going to prolong things, as its clear the West is going to make sure he can't use air power while the rebels move along the ground, it's only a matter of time before they get to Tripoli [with Western supplies no doubt]. One issue though will be to distinguish between Qathaffi forces' planes and tanks, and those that defected (like the 2 fighter jet pilots who defected to Malta).

 

Whatever the short run, in the long run it will be a difficult development, with no doubt lots of growing pains on the part of the Libyan people.

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He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked... Your daily life is your temple and your religion
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I face-palmed so hard when I heard this news. YOU [bleep]ING [wagon]s, don't our governments realise that pointing guns at a problem only creates more issues?? It doesn't matter how firmly you sit yourself upon a moral high horse and wave the banner of liberation.

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I face-palmed so hard when I heard this news. YOU [bleep]ING [wagon]s, don't our governments realise that pointing guns at a problem only creates more issues?? It doesn't matter how firmly you sit yourself upon a moral high horse and wave the banner of liberation.

 

Another person that doesn't know what he's talking about. And you'd let Gaddafi get away with crimes against humanity? Rational arguments is not going to stop the guy.

 

This is an attempt to prevent genocide, a coordinated effort to stop Gaddafi from killing more Libyans. There was very little in the way of gun pointing, just a single ultimatum demanding that Gaddafi stop firing on his own people. That was ignored, so the Coalition is trying to render pro-Gaddafi forces toothless. What the rebels do to the regime is not our business.

~ W ~

 

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You've been suckered in by propaganda, our governments wouldn't intervene if they didn't have something to gain (especially since the costs of launching an attack are already ridiculously high). We need to stop sticking our massive throbbing [rooster] in everyone elses faces. Wasn't the whole Iraq incident bad enough? Honestly. Not to mention that the Libyan rebels themselves are attempting a solution that could never work in any practical sense, violent revolutions almost always turn out bad (like it already has).

 

The statistics I've seen show that Libya's economic growth has been on the rise last decade, then during 2010 there was a minor spike downward, this must have contributed to the idea of a revolution, even though things were improving. Why? because people suddenly have more energy and resources to complain and subsequently revolt, something that they can't manage while badly oppressed. In no way am I suggesting Gaddafi isn't a tyrant, it's just he was somewhat raising his people's living standards.

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Not to mention that the Libyan rebels themselves are attempting a solution that could never work in any practical sense, violent revolutions almost always turn out bad (like it already has).

Your neighbors are getting bombed, people are getting killed, you fear your house will be next. What the hell do you expect them to do, not do anything because it'll be morally wrong or impossible to do? Perhaps try Frank's way by sending letters...oh wait he got taken away by the police that one night...

"The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is."

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You've been suckered in by propaganda, our governments wouldn't intervene if they didn't have something to gain (especially since the costs of launching an attack are already ridiculously high). We need to stop sticking our massive throbbing [rooster] in everyone elses faces. Wasn't the whole Iraq incident bad enough? Honestly. Not to mention that the Libyan rebels themselves are attempting a solution that could never work in any practical sense, violent revolutions almost always turn out bad (like it already has).

 

The statistics I've seen show that Libya's economic growth has been on the rise last decade, then during 2010 there was a minor spike downward, this must have contributed to the idea of a revolution, even though things were improving. Why? because people suddenly have more energy and resources to complain and subsequently revolt, something that they can't manage while badly oppressed. In no way am I suggesting Gaddafi isn't a tyrant, it's just he was somewhat raising his people's living standards.

Never trust statistics. Data can be and is twisted by everyone that can get their hands on it. In this age of infographics and charts, the true propagandists understand that the people who consider themselves "educated" can be swayed terrifyingly easily by numbers.

catch it now so you can like it before it went so mainstream

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Not to mention that the Libyan rebels themselves are attempting a solution that could never work in any practical sense, violent revolutions almost always turn out bad (like it already has).

Your neighbors are getting bombed, people are getting killed, you fear your house will be next. What the hell do you expect them to do, not do anything because it'll be morally wrong or impossible to do? Perhaps try Frank's way by sending letters...oh wait he got taken away by the police that one night...

 

By the time [cabbage] gets that bad you should have fled the country a long time ago, not try to fight back, as soon as the governing body loses their workforce/tax-base, they're finished. Problems are never properly solved with guns, never.

 

What do these people think? That somehow the magical bullet-proof vest of 'god' is going to help them overthrow a tyrant? Make them immune to air-strikes?

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Not to mention that the Libyan rebels themselves are attempting a solution that could never work in any practical sense, violent revolutions almost always turn out bad (like it already has).

Your neighbors are getting bombed, people are getting killed, you fear your house will be next. What the hell do you expect them to do, not do anything because it'll be morally wrong or impossible to do? Perhaps try Frank's way by sending letters...oh wait he got taken away by the police that one night...

 

By the time [cabbage] gets that bad the most logical thing to do is flee the country, not try to fight back, as soon as the governing body loses their workforce/tax-base, they're finished.

That's a good option, unrealistic at cutting off the state's taxes as (you like to say) it's not practical the majority of the population leaves. But either way, they're going to be pretty poor in Egypt as in Tunisia or in Libya. If you had done absolutely nothing note-worthy in your life and lived it pretty dull (as I would imagine living in Libya would be), the revolution could be your answer to be part of history, possibly change some things, and get some excitement.

"The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is."

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Not to mention that the Libyan rebels themselves are attempting a solution that could never work in any practical sense, violent revolutions almost always turn out bad (like it already has).

Your neighbors are getting bombed, people are getting killed, you fear your house will be next. What the hell do you expect them to do, not do anything because it'll be morally wrong or impossible to do? Perhaps try Frank's way by sending letters...oh wait he got taken away by the police that one night...

 

By the time [cabbage] gets that bad the most logical thing to do is flee the country, not try to fight back, as soon as the governing body loses their workforce/tax-base, they're finished.

That's a good option, unrealistic at cutting off the state's taxes as (you like to say) it's not practical the majority of the population leaves. But either way, they're going to be pretty poor in Egypt as in Tunisia or in Libya. If you had done absolutely nothing note-worthy in your life and lived it pretty dull (as I would imagine living in Libya would be), the revolution could be your answer to be part of history, possibly change some things, and get some excitement.

 

While spilling a lake of blood in the process, geez, someone please teach these people to think critically. I can't really talk though, it's not like our own countries are any better. Anyway, Libya already has a rich ancient history, they're basically Carthage. I can appreciate that especially since I have a Sicilian heritage and mostly likely harbour Libyan genetics.

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You've been suckered in by propaganda, our governments wouldn't intervene if they didn't have something to gain (especially since the costs of launching an attack are already ridiculously high). We need to stop sticking our massive throbbing [rooster] in everyone elses faces. Wasn't the whole Iraq incident bad enough? Honestly. Not to mention that the Libyan rebels themselves are attempting a solution that could never work in any practical sense, violent revolutions almost always turn out bad (like it already has).

 

The statistics I've seen show that Libya's economic growth has been on the rise last decade, then during 2010 there was a minor spike downward, this must have contributed to the idea of a revolution, even though things were improving. Why? because people suddenly have more energy and resources to complain and subsequently revolt, something that they can't manage while badly oppressed. In no way am I suggesting Gaddafi isn't a tyrant, it's just he was somewhat raising his people's living standards.

 

 

You don't know anything. See the video I posted above and say again with a straight face that the people started the violence.

 

While what happened in Egypt and Tunisia had economic undertones what is happening in Libya is all centered on removing Gadafii and his family (everything in the country will improve then, by default). Why? I'll give you a quick rundown why Gadafii is hated more then Bin Ali and Mubarak combined.

 

-he killed off 1,200 people in a few HOURS in the Bu Sleem massacre. Their families didn't know that their sons were dead until years after the fact. They still don't know where he dumped the bodies.

-used napalm against "rebels" based in the Green Mountain in a failed rebellion in the 90s

-forced the parents of those he executed to cheer and thank him for executing their "traitorous" sons

-we've never seen a dime of the billions the country has taken in over the years; government workers (ie. teachers, doctors etc.) are paid whenever he feels like it, say one months paycheck every three months. Its not even a salary suitable for a country with a tiny population and large oil reserves

-he destroyed a good healthcare and education system simply out of spite

 

See part 2 of the BBC documentary, that old man looking for clues as to sons dissapearence

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You've been suckered in by propaganda, our governments wouldn't intervene if they didn't have something to gain (especially since the costs of launching an attack are already ridiculously high). We need to stop sticking our massive throbbing [rooster] in everyone elses faces. Wasn't the whole Iraq incident bad enough? Honestly. Not to mention that the Libyan rebels themselves are attempting a solution that could never work in any practical sense, violent revolutions almost always turn out bad (like it already has).

 

The statistics I've seen show that Libya's economic growth has been on the rise last decade, then during 2010 there was a minor spike downward, this must have contributed to the idea of a revolution, even though things were improving. Why? because people suddenly have more energy and resources to complain and subsequently revolt, something that they can't manage while badly oppressed. In no way am I suggesting Gaddafi isn't a tyrant, it's just he was somewhat raising his people's living standards.

 

 

You don't know anything. See the video I posted above and say again with a straight face that the people started the violence.

 

While what happened in Egypt and Tunisia had economic undertones what is happening in Libya is all centered on removing Gadafii and his family (everything in the country will improve then, by default). Why? I'll give you a quick rundown why Gadafii is hated more then Bin Ali and Mubarak combined.

 

-he killed off 1,200 people in a few HOURS in the Bu Sleem massacre. Their families didn't know that their sons were dead until years after the fact. They still don't know where he dumped the bodies.

-used napalm against "rebels" based in the Green Mountain in a failed rebellion in the 90s

-forced the parents of those he executed to cheer and thank him for executing their "traitorous" sons

-we've never seen a dime of the billions the country has taken in over the years; government workers (ie. teachers, doctors etc.) are paid whenever he feels like it, say one months paycheck every three months. Its not even a salary suitable for a country with a tiny population and large oil reserves

-he destroyed a good healthcare and education system simply out of spite

 

See part 2 of the BBC documentary, that old man looking for clues as to sons dissapearence

 

You're just giving me a list of things that I assume tyrants are naturally responsible for. Funny how Libya's economy was also rising during the 90s.. The way I see it, a bunch of angry idiots banded together thinking they could overthrow Gaddafi under the impression that it was noble. They made themselves appear more of a threat than they actually were, then many unfortunate innocents got caught up in the bat-[cabbage] insane government retaliation.

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You're just giving me a list of things that I assume tyrants are naturally responsible of. Funny how Libya's economy was also rising during the 90s.. The way I see it, a bunch of angry idiots banded together thinking they could overthrow Gaddafi, they made themselves appear more of a threat than they actually were, then many unfortunate innocents got caught up in the bat-[cabbage] insane government retaliation.

 

The countries economy doesn't mean the countries people.

 

The way I see it you must be blind and deaf. Evidence wont help you in that case.

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You're just giving me a list of things that I assume tyrants are naturally responsible of. Funny how Libya's economy was also rising during the 90s.. The way I see it, a bunch of angry idiots banded together thinking they could overthrow Gaddafi, they made themselves appear more of a threat than they actually were, then many unfortunate innocents got caught up in the bat-[cabbage] insane government retaliation.

 

The countries economy doesn't mean the countries people.

 

The way I see it you must be blind and deaf. Evidence wont help you in that case.

 

Our society is set up so that everything links back to the economy, it's bogus, but it's true.

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You're just giving me a list of things that I assume tyrants are naturally responsible of. Funny how Libya's economy was also rising during the 90s.. The way I see it, a bunch of angry idiots banded together thinking they could overthrow Gaddafi, they made themselves appear more of a threat than they actually were, then many unfortunate innocents got caught up in the bat-[cabbage] insane government retaliation.

 

The countries economy doesn't mean the countries people.

 

The way I see it you must be blind and deaf. Evidence wont help you in that case.

 

Our society is set up so that everything links back to the economy, it's bogus, but it's true.

 

Your's not Libya's.

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You're just giving me a list of things that I assume tyrants are naturally responsible of. Funny how Libya's economy was also rising during the 90s.. The way I see it, a bunch of angry idiots banded together thinking they could overthrow Gaddafi, they made themselves appear more of a threat than they actually were, then many unfortunate innocents got caught up in the bat-[cabbage] insane government retaliation.

 

The countries economy doesn't mean the countries people.

 

The way I see it you must be blind and deaf. Evidence wont help you in that case.

 

Our GLOBAL society is set up so that everything links back to the economy, it's bogus, but it's true.

 

Your's not Libya's.

 

Pfft, whatever.

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Not to mention that the Libyan rebels themselves are attempting a solution that could never work in any practical sense, violent revolutions almost always turn out bad (like it already has).

Your neighbors are getting bombed, people are getting killed, you fear your house will be next. What the hell do you expect them to do, not do anything because it'll be morally wrong or impossible to do? Perhaps try Frank's way by sending letters...oh wait he got taken away by the police that one night...

 

By the time [cabbage] gets that bad the most logical thing to do is flee the country, not try to fight back, as soon as the governing body loses their workforce/tax-base, they're finished.

That's a good option, unrealistic at cutting off the state's taxes as (you like to say) it's not practical the majority of the population leaves. But either way, they're going to be pretty poor in Egypt as in Tunisia or in Libya. If you had done absolutely nothing note-worthy in your life and lived it pretty dull (as I would imagine living in Libya would be), the revolution could be your answer to be part of history, possibly change some things, and get some excitement.

 

While spilling a lake of blood in the process, geez, someone please teach these people to think critically. I can't really talk though, it's not like our own countries are any better. Anyway, Libya already has a rich ancient history, they're basically Carthage. I can appreciate that especially since I have a Sicilian heritage and mostly likely harbour Libyan genetics.

The blood of the volunteer rebels and the soldiers. I highly doubt rebels will go off shooting up civilian houses when they themselves joined to fight against that purpose.

 

And what was the point of bringing up ancient history? Current political states have absolutely nothing to do with the borders of 2000 years ago; most colonial independent states don't go past 150 years even. But as a Sicilian though you, out of all people, should understand how political offices, held by certain corruption officials, can totally screw over and oppress an entire population.

"The cry of the poor is not always just, but if you never hear it you'll never know what justice is."

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Given how protests started and how Gadaffi seems to act against any challenge to his rule, I don't see how things could have lead to anything but violence. The tone set in Egypt and other nations doesn't apply readily to the next country over, and vice-versa. It's a shame though that more dictators (who really just act like big kids with guns) can't endure the same consequences for their actions.

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Not to mention that the Libyan rebels themselves are attempting a solution that could never work in any practical sense, violent revolutions almost always turn out bad (like it already has).

Your neighbors are getting bombed, people are getting killed, you fear your house will be next. What the hell do you expect them to do, not do anything because it'll be morally wrong or impossible to do? Perhaps try Frank's way by sending letters...oh wait he got taken away by the police that one night...

 

By the time [cabbage] gets that bad the most logical thing to do is flee the country, not try to fight back, as soon as the governing body loses their workforce/tax-base, they're finished.

That's a good option, unrealistic at cutting off the state's taxes as (you like to say) it's not practical the majority of the population leaves. But either way, they're going to be pretty poor in Egypt as in Tunisia or in Libya. If you had done absolutely nothing note-worthy in your life and lived it pretty dull (as I would imagine living in Libya would be), the revolution could be your answer to be part of history, possibly change some things, and get some excitement.

 

While spilling a lake of blood in the process, geez, someone please teach these people to think critically. I can't really talk though, it's not like our own countries are any better. Anyway, Libya already has a rich ancient history, they're basically Carthage. I can appreciate that especially since I have a Sicilian heritage and mostly likely harbour Libyan genetics.

The blood of the volunteer rebels and the soldiers. I highly doubt rebels will go off shooting up civilian houses when they themselves joined to fight against that purpose.

 

And what was the point of bringing up ancient history? Current political states have absolutely nothing to do with the borders of 2000 years ago; most colonial independent states don't go past 150 years even. But as a Sicilian though you, out of all people, should understand how political offices, held by certain corruption officials, can totally screw over and oppress an entire population.

 

Very true, hah.

 

I mentioned ancient history after you suggested that the Libyans were trying to find a meaning/identity which you assumed they lacked. Anyway, the influence of ancient history is directly relevant to about 500 years ago (renaissance) which in turn had an indirect effect on the workings of today's collective society. Not that saying this in itself is relevant in any way, but still.

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