Third Bind Guide and/or Discussion.

[Articultural]

To respond to your point of 34 crush defence being greater than 22 ranged attack is comparing plate + neck to just saggitarian body. Also: you will have 51 ranged attack with hex + hood, 59 with blood neck (+6.9% accuracy roll) and 84 with saggitarian body (+28.7% accuracy roll). With hood + body you will have 115 crush defence, with plate + hood you will have 149 crush defence (+19% defence roll). So in fact the ranged accuracy increase is greater than the crush defence increase.

 

I was saying that if the +22 more ranged attack you have with a sag body over a blood neck is very significant, then the +34 crush defence you have with a plate over a sag body isn't trivial. Having both never came into it, I was merely pointing out that a if you say a sag body is much better than a blood necklace when ranging, you can't say a plate is barely better than a sag body against monsters who use crush, when there's a bigger difference in crush defence than ranged attack.

[Obtaurian]

You just completely ignored her post and reasserted your point. Why do you keep doing that? I'll be back later to respond to the rest of your post. Off-hand I think it's funny that you continue to ignore the point that the player we're discussing is primarily a keyer, so the 40/60 rule doesn't apply to them, and I like how you use the "1-99 dg, 100+" thing as if it applies at all when we're talking about fourth binds. Fix those two points before I get back, or I won't have much to say to you. You have yet to disprove any of my points, funny enough.

[Articultural]

You just completely ignored her post and reasserted your point. Why do you keep doing that? I'll be back later to respond to the rest of your post. Off-hand I think it's funny that you continue to ignore the point that the player we're discussing is primarily a keyer, so the 40/60 rule doesn't apply to them, and I like how you use the "1-99 dg, 100+" thing as if it applies at all when we're talking about fourth binds. Fix those two points before I get back, or I won't have much to say to you. You have yet to disprove any of my points, funny enough.

 

Because she completely misread my post and assumed I was talking about neck + plate vs sag body rather than neck or plate vs sag body.

 

You were the one who stated that they'd be ranging 40% of the dungeon, I was merely going along with your suggestion of how often you range.

 

It's not different with fourth binds, in the same way that not needing a plate 1-99 means you don't need one for 100+, not needing a plate 100-120 should mean you don't need one at 120.

 

You haven't disproved any of my points either, just repeatedly stated that you don't get bound (which appears to be that you lack of experience with a body and are repeating what others have told you or get extremely lucky, as I often got bound multiple times per floor when I had high mage defence binds) and that a sag body is a partially offensive bind and a partially defensive one, without realising that a hex is better if you want and offensive bind and a platebody if you want a defensive one. Unless you're almost solely ranging, there is no reason to bind a body, and if you are, you should get rid of your p2h and bind legs as well.

[Obtaurian]

You were the one who stated that they'd be ranging 40% of the dungeon, I was merely going along with your suggestion of how often you range.

 

And I've repeatedly stated that for keyers, you'd be hexing much more often than that.

 

It's not different with fourth binds, in the same way that not needing a plate 1-99 means you don't need one for 100+, not needing a plate 100-120 should mean you don't need one at 120.

 

I completely agree. :) The advantage of an armor bind, however, is that it can save you in situations where death would have been close to unavoidable (a room full of rape, you're running to the door, SUDDENLY TWO DOORS ARE OPENED, dead). A sagi body - just like a plate - will save you an unavoidable death here and there while still contributing to your DPS, hence it's a great bind for hex keyers.

 

You haven't disproved any of my points either,

 

Merely stating such does not make it true unless you elaborate.

 

just repeatedly stated that you don't get bound (which appears to be that you lack of experience with a body and are repeating what others have told you or get extremely lucky, as I often got bound multiple times per floor when I had high mage defence binds)

 

As I said in my first response to you, I have plenty of experience keying in tyranno armor (usually chaps, vambs, and boots). With or without it, I don't get bound often. I'm starting to wonder what your dungeoneering level and binds are, as I can't see how you can be utterly raped by mages while I'm not, and it shouldn't really have anything to do with combat mechanics.

 

and that a sag body is a partially offensive bind and a partially defensive one, without realising that a hex is better if you want and offensive bind and a platebody if you want a defensive one.

 

Wait, now you're saying that we've been talking about plate versus hex rather than plate + hex versus sagi body + hex? What in the world?

 

Unless you're almost solely ranging, there is no reason to bind a body, and if you are, you should get rid of your p2h and bind legs as well.

 

Do I really have to quote all of my previous posts at you? And seriously, what are your binds and dungeoneering level?

 

Will edit with more in a bit.

[Articultural]

Hex was a typo, was supposed to be bn. :P

[Quyneax]

You can either have neck/2h/hood/hex, or replace the neck with plate, or with body. Comparing body and plate, there's a 43 ranged attack difference. Comparing neck and body, 25 difference (not 22), but then the crush defence doesn't come into play. Either way, 25 difference would make it 20.3% better, still a greater increase than the crush defence from the plate. Not to mention that ranged accuracy is used more (as hexer) than crush defence.

 

If we assume hex/hood/2h as giving you 1 unit of ranged accuracy, slash accuracy, strength bonus and ranged and crush defence, then:

        ranged acc   crush def   slash acc   strength
3 binds      1           1           1          1
Plate        0.913       2.73        1          1
Neck         1.07        1.14        1.05       1.05
Body         1.29        2.29        0.96       1

 

Which shows that the ranged upgrade is quite a lot bigger than the slash attack upgrade, of course the neck also has strength, so that helps out more, but in general the hex would profit a little more from the body than the 2h from the neck. You can of course use a battleaxe with the necklace, but not with the body and it changes your attack priority as well (skeletons more for example) so I didn't compare those.

 

Your total offence increase of the body (50/50 range/melee) is at most ~13%, the increase from the blood neck ~10% (that's assuming you get some 40s in). The neck also has less defence of course, though it heals a little. Because of the blood neck's strength bonus, it's more useful at lower defence (battle axe, for example), but when hexing at fairly low accuracies the body is definitely the best upgrade. And of course you'd fit yourself to that role, as body or neck.

 

A plate is mainly a defensive bind, I cba adding slash/stab/ranged defence but they are probably like like 1, 5, 1.1, 2 or something. Magic defence 1, .95, 1.1, 2.something.

[brunokiller]

I got this idea this morning - what about a sagittarian long/short w/ sag arrows, assuming there is no hex on the team?

 

applications: taking out high mages perhaps (how does dps relate to a 2h?)

 

clearing mages on the other side of bride/rope rooms etc

 

Do you think that'd be a sensible third bind?

[Obtaurian]

I think it could be viable when we get our second ammo bind, but a csb is much more useful IMO. Because of the huge change to DGS's bind policies, we'll be looking into pretty much every alternative third bind.

[Articultural]

You could always make a gravecreeper shortbow if you had no hexers on the team, it's only 8 Ranged attack less and you can often cut at least one log without wasting time.

[brunokiller]

- Gravecreeper/entgallow longbows should be salvaged from dead forgotten rangers to be used on ranged-weak, non-hexable monsters like brutes and dogs.

 

Shouldn't you switch to melee instead?

[bedman]

- Gravecreeper/entgallow longbows should be salvaged from dead forgotten rangers to be used on ranged-weak, non-hexable monsters like brutes and dogs.

 

Shouldn't you switch to melee instead?

I think they're both weak to stab (and ranged) and very resistent to all other attack styles, so ranging would be better than slash/crush.

[Zaaps1]

- Gravecreeper/entgallow longbows should be salvaged from dead forgotten rangers to be used on ranged-weak, non-hexable monsters like brutes and dogs.

 

Shouldn't you switch to melee instead?

I think they're both weak to stab (and ranged) and very resistent to all other attack styles, so ranging would be better than slash/crush.

 

Out of curiosity, to what degree should non-hex DPS'ers do this? It's a common practice for non-CSB DPS'ers to loot maging runes for mageables, but should they also loot prom arrows/grave bows for range-weak monsters?

[Articultural]

Providing they don't waste time swapping, I can see no reason not to if it improves their DPS. The only difference is that there are a lot more monsters weaker to mage than melee than there are to range than melee, especially with lower tier bows/arrows and the lack of mastyx armour pieces.

[Sir_Squab]

Still might be worth it on high level mages at least. T11 mages have 97 slash def (and other high level mages have some semi-high slash def), bind you occasionally and have exactly 0 range def.

[Zaaps1]

It probably shouldn't be done unless you are doing Warped floors, as that's the only real theme where non-Hex bows are really needed. That being said, if you find a Rapier as a drop on Warped floors, you should probably discard the bow and just use the Rapier.

 

That brings up another question I have, though, which tier rapiers/spears are worth using over standard weapons on stab-weak monsters? I usually only take Prom.

[notasoupbowl]

Although I do think sag body is a good bind, I really don't think you use it 40%.

If I look at my xp gains, yea its about 60/40-45/55

But that doesn't consider that hex is usually like 2x the dps of melee when hexing things - so you probably use it like 20-30% of the time.

 

I don't think the range accuracy is needed on most hexables, the exceptions being skeleton mages, shades, and unragered bosses

And I think there's some research being done about those two monsters

 

Increasing melee dps imo is a lot more important than range accuracy

However, the defense of sag body is great for running paths - as is plate

You can pray range and run around very well

 

I would definitely not say sag body is a useless bind, it's the ideal defense bind for hexers I think, with the added bonus of hexing unragered bosses easier

[Articultural]

I wasn't saying it was a useless bind, merely that there are both better defensive and offensive binds, a sagittarian body is kind of an inbetween item, it is average both offensively and defensively, but not amazing at either, which is why I wouldn't personally recommend binding one. I'm not denying that it has its uses, I merely don't find it as useful as the other items you could bind instead of it (in this case a blood necklace or a primal plate).

[Sir_Squab]

Well, Blood Necklaces aren't exactly easy to acquire. If you have a Hex, a Sag Body seems faaaaaaarrrr more useful then a Primal Plate. Especially since you'd probably need to take OFF the plate for most Hexable monsters.

[Articultural]

Blood necklaces aren't even nearly as rare as hexs are, I often see Edimmu and the drop rate appears to be ~1/12. The primal plate was merely suggseted as a defensive bind as Fulco wanted a defensive bind to reduce dying, and it's arguably the best defensive bind other than a shadow silk hood.

[Sir_Squab]

I don't think the drop rate for Hexes is any more then 1/20. I will buy that they are probably far, far less rare then Hexes. The reason why they are such a rare drop is because you rarely see the slayer monster. And I feel a need to point out that your own personal experience may or may not be conclusive to proving their overall rarity. Keep in mind that Obt here is noted for not getting a hood until, I believe, 90+ dungeoneering - whereas even boss drops are (relatively at least) easy to get by just repeating a floor with the boss you want over and over.

 

I think everyone accepts that a Primal Plate is arguably the best defensive bind after a hood, but a Sag Body makes a very good offensive/defensive bind exclusively for users who have a Hex.

 

I don't recall what Fulco said, but if he wanted a bind to reduce dying and does not have a Hex, Primal Plate would definitely be the best option. (Beyond being told by half of this thread to DG better.) If one has a Hex however, the Sag body offers fairly good def too, as well as offering a good DPS boost as opposed to something that drastically decreases it.

 

Would you accept given the lines of reasoning on this thread for the Sag Body that it could be a good defensive/offensive bind for Hexers?

[Articultural]

I'm not saying that it couldn't be or isn't a good bind for hexers, it's just not the best use of a bind slot. Similar to how people might bind primal gaunts if they don't have a blood necklace, it's not a bad bind, just not as good as the latter.

[Zaaps1]

If it's not the best use of the bind slot, why bother at all? You need 99 defense for both (in fact the Leatherbody requires both 99 range and defense, opposed to just 99 defense), and you get the Leatherbody as a drop just 1 level after 100, before which 3rd binds don't matter and also before which you can already receive the Platebody.

 

So it's not like Primal Gauntlets at all. Whereas P Gaunts are a viable replacement for the Blood Necklace for those who don't have one, there is NO reason to get the Leatherbody at all, assuming it is defensively inferior to the Platebody as you said, unless one takes into consideration the hex. It has the same defense requirement and an even higher dungeoneering requirement. Under what circumstances would anyone bind it without a hex?

 

So...yeah it's a bad bind without a hex.

[Articultural]

We're talking about binding it *with* a hex, potentially as a 4th bind. :P

[Zaaps1]

Oops, this is what happens when you give me a keyboard after practice. :x

[Thai_tong]

I notice that wiki's list of monsters' weaknesses says that earth warriors that are weak only to air spells and giant skeletons are only weak to fire spells, you didnt mention that in the celestial staff section did you forget to mention it or is it just wrong?