Is there a God?

[Assume Nothing]

Different issue: it sounds less than likely that churches, even those which promote moderate Christianity, would advocate efficient charities over its own (vested interest in receiving revenue for the maintenance and upkeep of its organization.)

[champion]

That would be by the effort of the individual to find a good charity. If one were to follow Jesus' teachings well, like helping the poor and all that, one would strive to donate to the most efficient charity, regardless of who endorses it, right? I know my parents, for example, attend Catholic masses, but they donate to charities not specifically affiliated with the Church. And it's not like the Church actually forces you to help them/donate to their organizations.

[Vezon Dash]

Different issue: it sounds less than likely that churches, even those which promote moderate Christianity, would advocate efficient charities over its own (vested interest in receiving revenue for the maintenance and upkeep of its organization.)

 

This statement is so wrong on so many levels.

[Assume Nothing]

If you're going to merit the church for helping the individual do so, you must show us how the church is likely to actively engage the individual in donating to the correct charities. I envision these churches discouraging donations to efficient charities in favour of its own, but I really don't know much about these churches so I'm relying on information provided by yourself and others to correct these presumptions.

 

Oh, and on the point of striving for the most efficient charity: it's actually more complicated than that, because some causes sound trivial but are much more efficient at saving lives and/or improving standard of living (by a longshot no less).

 

EDIT @Vezon: If you're going to assert that I'm wrong, please illustrate how. To assert that I'm supposedly wrong without explanation/argument is no better than a response from myself saying 'no, you're wrong'.

[champion]

If you're going to merit the church for helping the individual do so, you must show us how the church is likely to actively engage the individual in donating to the correct charities. I envision these churches discouraging donations to efficient charities in favour of its own, but I really don't know much about these churches so I'm relying on information provided by yourself and others to correct these presumptions.

No, I wasn't vouching for the Church's ability to persuade its members to donate to the best charities. I was saying how one could be inspired by religious texts and a religious lifestyle to do better things. Don't you agree that that can be the case? That's all I'm saying. You're not even refuting that point, you're just slightly changing the argument every time.

[Assume Nothing]

Oh, that's misinterpretation on my part. It's true, persons without religion who've lived a poor lifestyle could be inspired to do good in society by these teachings. The question then shifts to 'is it outweighed by the costs of these religions', and what happens if we do without it?

[obfuscator]

I'd personally like to see some statistical evidence that religious people are more likely to engage in criminal activity than atheists, to be honest.

[Assume Nothing]

I've forgotten where I've found 'em to be honest, but it's a claim worth looking up. I'll update you on that later though.

[champion]

Oh, that's misinterpretation on my part. It's true, persons without religion who've lived a poor lifestyle could be inspired to do good in society by these teachings. The question then shifts to 'is it outweighed by the costs of these religions', and what happens if we do without it?

I'm confident in saying that the world would probably be a better place with a lot of moderate non-extremist religious people than a world where no one followed a religion. The problem isn't really with religion as a whole, it's with people who interpret it in a way that's overall going to be detrimental to society.

[Assume Nothing]

I don't see the harm in irreligion, please elaborate?

[Vezon Dash]

If you're going to merit the church for helping the individual do so, you must show us how the church is likely to actively engage the individual in donating to the correct charities. I envision these churches discouraging donations to efficient charities in favour of its own, but I really don't know much about these churches so I'm relying on information provided by yourself and others to correct these presumptions.

 

Oh, and on the point of striving for the most efficient charity: it's actually more complicated than that, because some causes sound trivial but are much more efficient at saving lives and/or improving standard of living (by a longshot no less).

 

EDIT @Vezon: If you're going to assert that I'm wrong, please illustrate how. To assert that I'm supposedly wrong without explanation/argument is no better than a response from myself saying 'no, you're wrong'.

 

Some churches give their money and resources to efficient charities. The previous churches that I have attended generally have not had programs that support the church. It usually supports the people in the local community as well as the global community.

[champion]

I don't see the harm in irreligion, please elaborate?

I'm not saying irreligion is harmful, I'm saying that a moderate religious life would probably be more beneficial to society than irreligion if that religion's core values include helping the less fortunate, supporting others, etc.

[Vezon Dash]

I don't see the harm in irreligion, please elaborate?

I'm not saying irreligion is harmful, I'm saying that a moderate religious life would probably be more beneficial to society than irreligion if that religion's core values include helping the less fortunate, supporting others, etc.

 

 

I'm not one to agree with Pie, but I think he nailed this one. Although, an irreligious society would have those compassionate people, but it is much more likely for a religious society to be more so compassionate.

[Assume Nothing]

I'll try and interpret your argument, please correct me if I'm wrong here:

 

Premise 1: Some moderate christian faiths advocate moral teachings inspired by 'jesus'

Premise 2: These teachings are inspiring to people, therefore an otherwise irreligious person would benefit society more

Conclusion drawn: moderate christian faith probably does more good than harm

 

I'd say whilst that's probably a good thing, it makes this deity a little moot - don't you think? But then again, the crux of the issue isn't really religion in itself, but rather - the default human state of ignorance.

 

@Vezon: What was your reasons for believing in the existence of a god/gods again?

[Riku3220]

I'd personally like to see some statistical evidence that religious people are more likely to engage in criminal activity than atheists, to be honest.

http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html

 

Response Number %

---------------------------- --------

Catholic 29267 39.164%

Protestant 26162 35.008%

Muslim 5435 7.273%

American Indian 2408 3.222%

Nation 1734 2.320%

Rasta 1485 1.987%

Jewish 1325 1.773%

Church of Christ 1303 1.744%

Pentecostal 1093 1.463%

Moorish 1066 1.426%

Buddhist 882 1.180%

Jehovah Witness 665 0.890%

Adventist 621 0.831%

Orthodox 375 0.502%

Mormon 298 0.399%

Scientology 190 0.254%

Atheist 156 0.209%

Hindu 119 0.159%

Santeria 117 0.157%

Sikh 14 0.019%

Bahai 9 0.012%

Krishna 7 0.009%

---------------------------- --------

Total Known Responses 74731 100.001%

[champion]

I'd personally like to see some statistical evidence that religious people are more likely to engage in criminal activity than atheists, to be honest.

http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html

 

Response Number %

---------------------------- --------

Catholic 29267 39.164%

Protestant 26162 35.008%

Muslim 5435 7.273%

American Indian 2408 3.222%

Nation 1734 2.320%

Rasta 1485 1.987%

Jewish 1325 1.773%

Church of Christ 1303 1.744%

Pentecostal 1093 1.463%

Moorish 1066 1.426%

Buddhist 882 1.180%

Jehovah Witness 665 0.890%

Adventist 621 0.831%

Orthodox 375 0.502%

Mormon 298 0.399%

Scientology 190 0.254%

Atheist 156 0.209%

Hindu 119 0.159%

Santeria 117 0.157%

Sikh 14 0.019%

Bahai 9 0.012%

Krishna 7 0.009%

---------------------------- --------

Total Known Responses 74731 100.001%

That's just the total number. There are obviously a lot more religious people in America than not. It should be no surprise that more end up in jail. Something accurate would be "number imprisoned per 10,000 of [belief]"

 

@assume i'll reply in a minute

[champion]

I'll try and interpret your argument, please correct me if I'm wrong here:

 

Premise 1: Some moderate christian faiths advocate moral teachings inspired by 'jesus'

Premise 2: These teachings are inspiring to people, therefore an otherwise irreligious person would benefit society more

Conclusion drawn: moderate christian faith probably does more good than harm

Yes, that is my reasoning.

 

I'd say whilst that's probably a good thing, it makes this deity a little moot - don't you think? But then again, the crux of the issue isn't really religion in itself, but rather - the default human state of ignorance.

Moot in the sense that God himself would be irrelevant from this issue? No not really. Christianity wouldn't really be anything without God. If you're talking about how you could still argue God's existence, yeah that's a whole other separate topic.

[obfuscator]

I'd personally like to see some statistical evidence that religious people are more likely to engage in criminal activity than atheists, to be honest.

http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html

 

Response Number %

---------------------------- --------

Catholic 29267 39.164%

Protestant 26162 35.008%

Muslim 5435 7.273%

American Indian 2408 3.222%

Nation 1734 2.320%

Rasta 1485 1.987%

Jewish 1325 1.773%

Church of Christ 1303 1.744%

Pentecostal 1093 1.463%

Moorish 1066 1.426%

Buddhist 882 1.180%

Jehovah Witness 665 0.890%

Adventist 621 0.831%

Orthodox 375 0.502%

Mormon 298 0.399%

Scientology 190 0.254%

Atheist 156 0.209%

Hindu 119 0.159%

Santeria 117 0.157%

Sikh 14 0.019%

Bahai 9 0.012%

Krishna 7 0.009%

---------------------------- --------

Total Known Responses 74731 100.001%

That's just the total number. There are obviously a lot more religious people in America than not. It should be no surprise that more end up in jail. Something accurate would be "number imprisoned per 10,000 of [belief]"

 

@assume i'll reply in a minute

 

Yeah, seeing a statistic based on percentage would be much more useful

[Assume Nothing]

Eh, so its qualities of being omnipotent/omniscient/omnipresent/omnibenevolent are pretty much irrelevant, but still there because Christianity requires it so its not useless? I'm confused with what I'm saying now, that's refreshing.

[Assume Nothing]

Oh, for the more fundamentalist inclined: why doesn't 'god' heal amputees?

[champion]

Eh, so its qualities of being omnipotent/omniscient/omnipresent/omnibenevolent are pretty much irrelevant, but still there because Christianity requires it so its not useless? I'm confused with what I'm saying now, that's refreshing.

 

If that gets analyzed any more it's just going to get more and more weird and confusing. In summary I'd say that if someone believes in God and follows a religion that helps others, then good for them, that should be encouraged. We can't prove there isn't a god so you may as well leave them alone so they can be good people. Extremism where society is harmed is a problem; that's more a problem of the individual not being able to separate right from wrong. Although the literal text of the Bible may say dumb things, religion as a whole should not be scrutinized for that; extremists who literally interpret the entire Bible are the minority anyhow. Religion can be good.

 

All that said I still don't believe in God. I don't need religion, but some people very well may.

 

Oh, for the more fundamentalist inclined: why doesn't 'god' heal amputees?

I'd like to hear Russet answer that lol, pretty sure she's the only real fundamentalist here though.

[Vezon Dash]

The world is too complex to have been created by chance.

[Assume Nothing]

Oh... that's a bit of a non-answer, I've mentally skipped it. I'm being lazy with words now, have a video:

 

[hide=Video contains cursing]

[/hide]

EDIT: Randox doesn't like capitalization.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Assume Nothing
language tags

[Vezon Dash]

Believe me... I've taken enough classes to know everything that is in those 8 minutes of videos.

[Assume Nothing]

So you're telling me you know the entirety of its contents despite having not fully watched it. Okay, what's in it?