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That's just banter and fun... Sure it's offensive to someone outside the clan/old EoE/friends group, or to someone who misconstrues this as an offensive attack on Draz... But why should we be scared of swearing at or with friends? Just turn your filter back on if this is that much of a problem.

Is it really ever appropriate to pass off homophobic language as "fun", even with friends? Doesn't that just encourage and reinforce discrimination and oppressive behaviour against homosexuals at a personal level?

I believe it's appropriate on rare occasions - when you know everyone around you is comfortable with the joke and knows that it is a joke, nothing more. I've witness gay individuals make such gestures themselves. There's a difference between being in jest in an appropriate atmosphere and being in jest in a rude and derogatory manner.

 

That said, even though I agree with you overall, I would say that muting for the behavior isn't going to do the most good - it's only going to serve as a way to enrage players and leave them to find other means to communicate. IRC anyone?


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So you admit that in that situation, he shouldn't choose to be part of your group of friends because he's gay and because he'd take offence at your homophobic sense of humour, but you won't admit that situation has only come about because of your own personal discrimination. I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it there.

 

No, the point is that I would only make such jokes in a private place where I knew all the parties involved and where I knew all the parties were alright with such crass humor. If some stranger, Joe, decides to impose himself into an area where he was not invited, then that's his fault, not mine. It's the same principle as keeping a diary where one airs one's thought on various people, only for some of those people to snoop around, read the diary and be upset? Do they have a right to be upset with me? I think not.

 

My point is that there are a dozen other ways to achieve the humour that's being achieved in that screenshot, but the choice of a term that is specifically homophobic is an interesting one. Especially when this is subsequently described as simply being "fun".

 

Irish was also mentioned. In any case, yes, sometimes people use such language. People use a lot of crass language, sometimes it happens to be that term. Also, context matters. In most humorous contexts (unlike that one), it's usually clear that people are joking and that it's not some congregation of raving homophobes.

 

I would not personally do so in a public chat or a large/open friend's chat.

 

Edited.

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I wasn't really asking you to justify using that language in a private place.

 

I was saying that the use of such language, whether it's in private or public, as a joke or otherwise, is itself an example of discriminatory behaviour. Once you've established that, it really isn't hard to understand why people outside the group (read: Jagex) might feel that the language is therefore inappropriate, although I agree with Alaz's point that muting people doesn't necessarily solve anything.

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I wasn't really asking you to justify using that language in a private place.

 

I was saying that the use of such language, whether it's in private or public, as a joke or otherwise, is itself an example of discriminatory behaviour. Once you've established that, it really isn't hard to understand why people outside the group (read: Jagex) might feel that the language is therefore inappropriate, although I agree with Alaz's point that muting people doesn't necessarily solve anything.

 

I disagree with regards to it being discriminatory. How I'd conduct myself would be tailored to the current demographic and dynamics of the group. If those dynamics changed, then so would one's behavior. If we had a group without any gays, and someone decided to make such jokes, there'd be no one to be offended. If a gay person entered the group, then such behavior would cease and new boundaries would be established.

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How is it not discriminatory? You're using a term which is discriminatory by definition.

 

Behaviour doesn't necessarily have to be offensive for it to be discriminatory, it simply has to be targeted against one certain group. The word used in that screenshot is discriminatory without doubt because it specifically targets homosexual men as the butt of the joke.

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Discrimination originally just meant 'seeing/marking/observing a difference between' or something like that. And in that sense, it's fair to realize that gay people are not the same as straight people (well duh). Whatever further prejudices you might have can make that distinction harmful or not. It's perfectly alright to make jokes about gay people, including jokes that wouldn't work with straight people. We make jokes about straight people all the time - get any stand-upper talking about marriage - and if you are too conscious of someone's gayness to make jokes about them, that is discrimination in itself.


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How is it not discriminatory? You're using a term which is discriminatory by definition.

 

Words have different meanings in different contexts.

 

Behaviour doesn't necessarily have to be offensive for it to be discriminatory, it simply has to be targeted against one certain group. The word used in that screenshot is discriminatory without doubt because it specifically targets homosexual men as the butt of the joke.

 

I do not think a harmless joke made in private between friends is harmful to, or discriminates against, the interests of gay people. If we're talking in general, that is. If you're talking about the friend's chat screenshot, I'd concede on that, as it is a large community with many people moving in and out of the chat.

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Discrimination originally just meant 'seeing/marking/observing a difference between' or something like that. And in that sense, it's fair to realize that gay people are not the same as straight people (well duh). Whatever further prejudices you might have can make that distinction harmful or not. It's perfectly alright to make jokes about gay people, including jokes that wouldn't work with straight people. We make jokes about straight people all the time - get any stand-upper talking about marriage - and if you are too conscious of someone's gayness to make jokes about them, that is discrimination in itself.

 

Not quite. While I have disagreed with Ginger, his argument is predicated on a rather simple and logical point: the historical experiences of gays and straights have been different. You can't just ignore all of that and declare "well, we're all just equal offenders now!" So, no, going to special lengths to spare the feelings (on homosexual jokes) of a gay person would not be discrimination.

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Is it really ever appropriate to pass off homophobic language as "fun", even with friends? Doesn't that just encourage and reinforce discrimination and oppressive behaviour against homosexuals at a personal level?

I think there's a difference to be noted here between homophobic language or words, and language, or words, also used by homophobes. The word gay could just as well be classed as homophobic language on this basis, but is gay a homophobic word?

 

I personally think using "the word in the screen shot" shows a ridicule of the term, and how unimportant and inoffensive the word actually is. (In that private circle of friends, but I'd better be careful lest I end up back on topic..)

 

Edit @ above

 

Well I do have to disagree there. True equality is not people [kitty]-footing around the gay populace's feelings, and asking people to treat homosexuals differently like that is only going to further segregate people. Besides, who's going to tell us when we can stop sparing their feelings?


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Sorry to break the flow of your convo, guys... proceed but I'll be on a slightly different tangent.

 

I'm a parent, and my bet is that militant helicopter-parenting style moms squealed like piggies to Jagex again. Some people have just got to ruin it for others.

 

I had the swear talk with my daughter-- she chooses not to swear although I wouldn't have a problem with her using certain words as their meaning implies, not gratuitously for interjection's sake... by gratuitously, I mean, uses them like four-color Golden Age comic books uses exclamation points for every sentence without a period in site. Or someone that's like REALLY HAPPY!!!!! on FACEBOOK!!!! Anyways, I know she encounters plenty of words that are considered profane or offensive, and I choose to have her deal with it appropriately instead of trying to shield her. Better, I think, to empower her now than to try to suppress and see some sort of rebellious backlash. (She is fascinated with Runescape and will watch me play, but she's 11 and I'd like her to wait at least until she's 13 before she creates an account, to at least be covered by COPA on principle.)

 

I have the filter off, personally, but I think the only person it applies for is a player moderator already and he knows I'm not going to have convulsions about a swear word here and there, mostly because I'd be a damned hypocrite if I did (because I use colorful words now and then, too). But, I'm also horridly anti-social and I choose to have most of my Chat filters set to Friends. I'm really not interested in the blather of random players, and I generally don't talk to anyone I haven't been introduced to by someone I know, or isn't part of a community I am currently interacting with.

 

And if I am to believe the others... I am just generally not interested in talking about RWT or gambling anyways. Doesn't mean I don't have an opinion on RWT, or that I don't play games of chance, but... I don't know. I don't expect that this will effect me but I will be pretty pissed off if it does for some bizarre reason.

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That's just banter and fun... Sure it's offensive to someone outside the clan/old EoE/friends group, or to someone who misconstrues this as an offensive attack on Draz... But why should we be scared of swearing at or with friends? Just turn your filter back on if this is that much of a problem.

Ooh, someone mentioned offensive...

 

Can we then also;

 

I'm hindu, please make all cows unattackable

 

I'm muslim, please remove the pigs at Draynor village

 

I'm vegetarian, please remove all leather armour from the game

 

I'm muslim, please cover up all female hairstyles with a tablecloth

 

I'm offended by the quran, please remove solomon from the game

 

I'm arabian, it's offensive to call everyone Ali

 

We might as well shut down the game - better not offend anyone.

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Your point seems to be: "People are offended all the time, you just have to deal with it" which is a reasonable point but not a relevant one to the point being made. My stance was that people have a right to free from being discriminated against, not necessarily being offended, although it is true that most forms of discrimination happen to involve offending the victimized group. A cow being killed for leather is not an example of discrimination against vegetarians, even if it may offend a vegetarian.

 

The homophobic F-word isn't acceptable not only because is it offensive, but most importantly because it's also directed against a specific group of people, not for any beliefs or values they have, but simply because they happen to be male and gay. The use of the term presumes the statement that: Homosexual men have a derogatory term used to describe them as a community, whereas heterosexual men do not. It also devalues the diversity within that community by removing the right to define one's own identity, and attempts to reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator: their sexuality.

 

I suppose an example would be that the term "Noob" would be acceptable, even if it's offensive, whereas a pejorative term such as the F-word, the N-word (etc.) would not.

I personally think using "the word in the screen shot" shows a ridicule of the term, and how unimportant and inoffensive the word actually is. (In that private circle of friends, but I'd better be careful lest I end up back on topic..)

I'd argue this an example of downplaying the consequences that discrimination has in reality. This is based on the philosophy that de facto discrimination only exists because of du jure discrimination, and that because it's now legal to be openly gay/black/Jewish/whatever, that discrimination no longer really exists, and so discriminatory terms have no real meaning. This is in stark contrast to reality: gay men are far, far more likely than the average male population to attempt suicide, for example. De facto discrimination still definitely exists--it manifests in inequalities such as the one described in that example--and so those terms still have negative meanings.

 

Well I do have to disagree there. True equality is not people [kitty]-footing around the gay populace's feelings, and asking people to treat homosexuals differently like that is only going to further segregate people. Besides, who's going to tell us when we can stop sparing their feelings?

How is asking not to be discriminated against defined as "treating differently"? There is no derogatory term of abuse for heterosexual males, all anyone's asking for is that there be no derogatory term to describe homosexual males.

 

In any case, this discussion has moved far beyond the original remit of the thread and probably deserves its own thread on the OT board.

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[spoiler=Lots of cussing... Beware those of sensitive nature etc.]3bKjx.jpg

 

 

3e0Rf.pngI can now only use Quickchat.


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I'd argue this an example of downplaying the consequences that discrimination has in reality. This is based on the philosophy that de facto discrimination only exists because of du jure discrimination, and that because it's now legal to be openly gay/black/Jewish/whatever, that discrimination no longer really exists, and so discriminatory terms have no real meaning. This is in stark contrast to reality: gay men are far, far more likely than the average male population to attempt suicide, for example. De facto discrimination still definitely exists--it manifests in inequalities such as the one described in that example--and so those terms still have negative meanings.

 

Now I know this is a far fetched thing to say, but where exactly does it say homosexuals are killing themselves because someone used a term, previously assosicated with homophobia, in a way that was entirely not homophobic?

 

Even from a pragmatic point, it's better for people to use the word trivially, than to stow it away as a bad word and later use it pointedly to hurt. If you want no derogatory discriminatory term, then generalise it to the extinction of its previous meaning.

 

With the quaintly censored kitty-footing, I was referring to another post where it was suggesting we should be careful making jokes about homosexuals - treat them differently because of their past experiences. Positive discrimination is still discrimination.

 

I'm not saying I don't appreciate gay people have a problem with being accepted, just that using a homophobic term (with zero homophobic intent, in private) isn't adding to the problem, and it in my opinion just dilutes the meaning of the word.


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That's just banter and fun... Sure it's offensive to someone outside the clan/old EoE/friends group, or to someone who misconstrues this as an offensive attack on Draz... But why should we be scared of swearing at or with friends? Just turn your filter back on if this is that much of a problem.

Is it really ever appropriate to pass off homophobic language as "fun", even with friends? Doesn't that just encourage and reinforce discrimination and oppressive behaviour against homosexuals at a personal level?

 

I'm not really making a point about Jagex here, I agree that we don't need Jagex to treat us like babies, I'm just querying your definition of the word "fun" and how that represents your clan/friend chat. Let's say that Joe, a gay man, enters your friend chat and sees that "banter"... does it continue to be appropriate then?

 

That's Joe's problem, not anybody else's. I think you're making mountains out of molehills with this one. For example, I've got about a dozen gay friends. I've asked all of them if they're offended by people calling something "gay." All of them said no. One even said, "[bleep] no. I call my friends [the three-letter 'f' word] all the time!"

 

This is one of those things where I suspect that the people who are offended by something don't even belong to that demographic; they're offended by the fact that you could be offending someone else... which makes no sense. And furthermore, the fact of the matter is, in real life there's very few people who give a shit about your feelings. If something offends you, tough shit, you should grow thicker skin and become more mature instead of expecting the rest of the world's population to bend over backwards just to make sure that you feel comfortable.

 

With that said, do you think any of my friends let some idiot ruin their day when they use "offensive language?" No way; they're too secure for any of that.

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Now I know this is a far fetched thing to say, but where exactly does it say homosexuals are killing themselves because someone used a term, previously assosicated with homophobia, in a way that was entirely not homophobic?

 

Even from a pragmatic point, it's better for people to use the word trivially, than to stow it away as a bad word and later use it pointedly to hurt. If you want no derogatory discriminatory term, then generalise it to the extinction of its previous meaning.

 

I think this is really important. In no way, was the word referred to, used or indeed considered, to be homophobic when it was used in the picture. It's used as an insult (in a friendly conversation where we all know each other well enough to take a joke) but not one that is insulting the person for being gay. The fact that said word may be used to insult a gay person is forgotten in this picture, the word has lost all meaning. It's similar in many ways (this is such a touchy subject) to race words being thrown around carelessly by those it applies to - within their group, the word is fine. But if someone outside it says it? All hell breaks loose.

Similar to Muggiw, I have a gay friend who uses the three-letter-word-beginning-with-F without qualm, and is aware of the fact that some gay people may find it offensive, but he realises that within our social group, we are never going to use it in an offensive way. It's much the same as if we were to call each other shithead - we do not literally mean, that the person has feces for a head, its a meaningess insult.

 

Some people may find things offensive, but many won't. It's very much a case of each to his own, which is why the censor toggle was put in place, and why Jagex now muting people for what may go on in a private conversation is pretty stupid. It's a step back.


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Is it really ever appropriate to pass off homophobic language as "fun", even with friends? Doesn't that just encourage and reinforce discrimination and oppressive behaviour against homosexuals at a personal level?

 

How can a community become ONE community, if there are these kind of people, who think that it's not allowed to make jokes about them? Go offend a hetero person, he either laughs or offends you back, go offend a gay person, he either laughs or offends you back. Sexuality or skin colour or w/e else shouldn't be an excuse not to joke about them, because otherwise the community will never evolve.

 

That's my opinion

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So why not just call each other shithead? Go out in public, you'll see plenty of people using "banter" without needing to resort to terms like that. Why specifically use a term which you know has homophobic connotations?

 

That's what really doesn't make sense to me whatsoever.

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So why not just call each other shithead? Go out in public, you'll see plenty of people using "banter" without needing to resort to terms like that. Why specifically use a term which you know has homophobic connotations?

 

That's what really doesn't make sense to me whatsoever.

But for all intents & purposes, it doesn't have homophobic connotations. That's something projected by you, alien to the converstation, and really highlights the problem with external moderation of private conversation.

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So why not just call each other shithead? Go out in public, you'll see plenty of people using "banter" without needing to resort to terms like that. Why specifically use a term which you know has homophobic connotations?

 

That's what really doesn't make sense to me whatsoever.

 

Using strong language makes it easier to emphasize points and feelings. It also generally makes things funnier. Shithead isn't common/popular enough to be used like that. If it were, I can almost guarantee that your wish would be granted :P So in the meantime you'll have to settle for dick, [wagon], [kitty], prick, etc.

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Isn't it more discriminative to avoid using a term which targets a specific group if it was meant to offend?

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Also, someone mentioned the NSA thing, the NSa has been there for a very long time. It is speculated, that it has been there already when Bush Jr was the President, but the Media has just started tlaking about it.

 

That's my other 2 cents

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Ginger, let us be real now: Whoever can't take an offense is a noob. And not allowing people to call other people names or w/e is kinda kindergarten style, isn't it? Yes, giving people names or offending them is also childish, but as long as one can ignore it, one should be man enough to ignore it, lol.

 

They're just words.

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