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Tip.It Times - 3rd November 2013 - Ts_Stormrage solves RWTing

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#1
tripsis
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Time for a new release of the: >>>Tip.It Times!<<<


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#2
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Can we even turn in buckets of water when they don't need mortar at that moment.

Also, the video in the first article isn't available in my location.
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#3
Ts_Stormrage
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Yes, I have to disappoint the Canadians there, but so far I haven't found a legal place to source it from.

 

In the words of your anthem: Sorry!

 

You might try to find the episode yourself (S16E2), and skip to 17 minutes in for the bit portayed here...


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Thought provoking article TS Stormrage!

 

I have moral problems with a casino, but see your point on that and I certainly agree there needs to be away to capitalize bonds, like you propose!

Only logical to make it work both ways, instead of only being able to put real money in the game legally.

 

Does anyone else think Jagex will make the next skill slow and ( partly) buyable because they are selling money themselves.. or are they just pandering to the rich among us?

 

 

Lastly: the shameless plugs:   read the second article also.. its not altogether bad.. and when you did that, go back to 2 weeks ago and read the fictional , finish it  and possibly win a month of membership. It s a brilliant story already!

 

http://www.tip.it/runescape/times/view/1095-world-of-warlords

 

http://www.tip.it/runescape/times/view/1088-a-hundred-heavy-hearts



#5
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inb4 more misplaced hate on stakers, people that wage & merchants. It's really easy to put all problems on one group. I've been hoping for a casino ever since rat pits got introduced and the recent banning of player-owned gambling, this would be a SERIOUS moneysink but I feel Jagex simply doesn't want to cater to the older crowd. I don't see why PVP'ers as always get the shit thrown at them though? There isn't much staking left... & absolutely no money at all coming into the game by staking, it simply changes hands. Why not add a percentile that goes to the Duel arena instead of capping the amount of stakes? Then there is actual money leaving the game, not imposing other people their playing methods.

 

Perhaps we should set limits on how much runite ore we can mine per day, how many herbs we farm per day? How many Zil's, Kril's, KK's, vorago's can be killed a day?

 

Price manipulation happens every weekend and if you want to do something properly you will write down prices and make charts to ensure that it won't happen to you. Price check FC's in general have just monopolized the prices, there's only a slight chance you will sell much over/under a margin, pre-GE we atleast had the freedom to choose prices: all this "manipulating" is so overthrown but i'll agree that it's a sad affair. 

 

& Yes please at the bond idea! It sounds very plausible. 

 

Perhaps accounts which have been on hiatus for over 2-3 years should be banned and have their rares dumped on GE. It's rather cruel when I think about it but otherwise how will the quitter problem be solved and then again that money is stagnant so technically non-existant? it doesn't matter that it gathers dust on an account. -> can be entirely wrong but i'm not an economics student x)

 

Before I was a hoarder I was always poor because I died so much in the wilderness but yeah... :3

 

Very interesting/though-provoking article!


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#6
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inb4 more misplaced hate on stakers, people that wage & merchants. It's really easy to put all problems on one group. I've been hoping for a casino ever since rat pits got introduced and the recent banning of player-owned gambling, this would be a SERIOUS moneysink but I feel Jagex simply doesn't want to cater to the older crowd. I don't see why PVP'ers as always get the shit thrown at them though? There isn't much staking left... & absolutely no money at all coming into the game by staking, it simply changes hands. Why not add a percentile that goes to the Duel arena instead of capping the amount of stakes? Then there is actual money leaving the game, not imposing other people their playing methods.

 

Perhaps we should set limits on how much runite ore we can mine per day, how many herbs we farm per day? How many Zil's, Kril's, KK's, vorago's can be killed a day?

 

Price manipulation happens every weekend and if you want to do something properly you will write down prices and make charts to ensure that it won't happen to you. Price check FC's in general have just monopolized the prices, there's only a slight chance you will sell much over/under a margin, pre-GE we atleast had the freedom to choose prices: all this "manipulating" is so overthrown but i'll agree that it's a sad affair. 

 

& Yes please at the bond idea! It sounds very plausible. 

 

Perhaps accounts which have been on hiatus for over 2-3 years should be banned and have their rares dumped on GE. It's rather cruel when I think about it but otherwise how will the quitter problem be solved and then again that money is stagnant so technically non-existant? it doesn't matter that it gathers dust on an account. -> can be entirely wrong but i'm not an economics student x)

 

Before I was a hoarder I was always poor because I died so much in the wilderness but yeah... :3

 

Very interesting/though-provoking article!

 

If the stakers aren't cheating then I've got nothing against them. They stay in their own area, they risk quite a bit and are just as likely to lose it all than gain. A percentile that goes to the duel arena would be even better.  Merchants however can mess with supply and demand deliberately, very rarely risk as much as they stand to gain, and can have a negative impact on other players. I feel they should be discouraged, a g.e. tax of 5% could help there. PvM, I just feel it makes way more that it actually tends to risk since gravestones came out. I think thats more of a skilling re-balance and drop mechanic rework needed to fix that though. Skills just aren't that useful. I wouldn't have an issue with in-game casinos because money would leave the game and again the gamblers are risking quite a bit if the odds are set correctly. Also, an in-game casino would still keep out the annoying spammers.

 

A lot of the skilling methods that do make decent money are effected by time restraints. PoP being one of the major ones where skillers can make some cash but it takes a while. Rune won't make you much per hour compared to other methods. Herbs will make you a bit, but they are time restricted already due to the time it takes to grow them.

 

If price manipulation is going to happen, then Jagex should either discourage it through better g.e. mechanics, or use it to their advantage and discourage it through a g.e. tax.

 

As far as bonds for straight cash works, I personally wouldn't mind it. I think though Jagex has for legal reasons been trying to avoid saying "gp is worth this much" in real money. Right now its a very thin line, but they only sell bonds and whatever the players do with them is fine with Jagex. However, if Jagex starts buying them back that might be enough to tie a real world value to gp in court and cause some issues.


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#7
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I largely agree with TS's analysis (the only people who don't are stakers/manipulators/hoarders, ie, those who have something to gain from those activities, or those who have misplaced sympathies with a bunch of parasites who ruin the game for everyone else),  and I largely agree with the solutions, though I am not sure if the Casino would work. It's sort of like staking -- it's pure luck, but some people are able to stay in it for long enough to accumulate large amounts of money -- enough that they can completely mitigate the risk. So I am skeptical if the casino idea would work. A better idea would be to simply reset certain sectors of the economies instead (i.e., delete excess cash, and prevent excessive accumulation of money so that we never end up here again, and prevent inflation). 



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I largely agree with TS's analysis (the only people who don't are stakers/manipulators/hoarders, ie, those who have something to gain from those activities, or those who have misplaced sympathies with a bunch of parasites who ruin the game for everyone else),  and I largely agree with the solutions, though I am not sure if the Casino would work. It's sort of like staking -- it's pure luck, but some people are able to stay in it for long enough to accumulate large amounts of money -- enough that they can completely mitigate the risk. So I am skeptical if the casino idea would work. A better idea would be to simply reset certain sectors of the economies instead (i.e., delete excess cash, and prevent excessive accumulation of money so that we never end up here again, and prevent inflation). 

 

If the odds are done right, I don't think you can ever truly mitigate the risk on games of chance. 


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#9
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Fair points, helring, I didn't account for the time-restraint you already have to invest in skilling vs the payout of it, let's hope PoP2.0 brings change and the skill reworks. Sadly the duel arena is mostly scam-infested now, I preferred the X-loggers over the scum that sometimes goes there now... It's a sad affair having to do an inventory check before fighting an opponent.

 

Come stake me with shields on and abilities and lets talk about luck again ^-^

 

Yes, lets delete all extra money, that'll be the solution... You first! 

 

Two months later... Same situation.


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#10
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The TS Stormrage article was interesting but I do disagree with most of the conclusions.  Bonds are new. They need more time for the community to adjust to them. They could work out well in the long term. If there is one thing I've learned since their introduction it's that people haven't given them a proper chance to be a culture within the game. 

 

Casino's and other gambling methods of a similar nature? No.  Players selling bonds for real cash? No.  That's not what players should be signing up for.  Let's keep the game a fun place to be.  Let's not go here.

 

Prevention of excessive cash by Yoko - Not a bad idea.  Jagex could also decide simply cut prices of bonds. 



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I largely agree with TS's analysis (the only people who don't are stakers/manipulators/hoarders, ie, those who have something to gain from those activities, or those who have misplaced sympathies with a bunch of parasites who ruin the game for everyone else),  and I largely agree with the solutions, though I am not sure if the Casino would work. It's sort of like staking -- it's pure luck, but some people are able to stay in it for long enough to accumulate large amounts of money -- enough that they can completely mitigate the risk. So I am skeptical if the casino idea would work. A better idea would be to simply reset certain sectors of the economies instead (i.e., delete excess cash, and prevent excessive accumulation of money so that we never end up here again, and prevent inflation). 

 

If the odds are done right, I don't think you can ever truly mitigate the risk on games of chance. 

 

 

Well, if you have a large stack of cash, you can always just do a martingale strategy. It's not foolproof, but it's not all that bad either. That's practically how a lot of the high stakers make their money.

 

Fair points, helring, I didn't account for the time-restraint you already have to invest in skilling vs the payout of it, let's hope PoP2.0 brings change and the skill reworks. Sadly the duel arena is mostly scam-infested now, I preferred the X-loggers over the scum that sometimes goes there now... It's a sad affair having to do an inventory check before fighting an opponent.

 

Come stake me with shields on and abilities and lets talk about luck again ^-^

 

Yes, lets delete all extra money, that'll be the solution... You first! 

 

Two months later... Same situation.

 

Trying reading the whole post next time, or perhaps the whole sentence. Right after I wrote 'delete excess money', literally the next words in that very sentence were 'prevent excessive accumulation of money, and prevent inflation'. So, no, we wouldn't be there 2 months later or ever again.



#12
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How will we do this?

 

Or... Was that all of your solution? You make it sound so easy.


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I largely agree with TS's analysis (the only people who don't are stakers/manipulators/hoarders, ie, those who have something to gain from those activities, or those who have misplaced sympathies with a bunch of parasites who ruin the game for everyone else),  and I largely agree with the solutions, though I am not sure if the Casino would work. It's sort of like staking -- it's pure luck, but some people are able to stay in it for long enough to accumulate large amounts of money -- enough that they can completely mitigate the risk. So I am skeptical if the casino idea would work. A better idea would be to simply reset certain sectors of the economies instead (i.e., delete excess cash, and prevent excessive accumulation of money so that we never end up here again, and prevent inflation). 

 

If the odds are done right, I don't think you can ever truly mitigate the risk on games of chance. 

 

 

Well, if you have a large stack of cash, you can always just do a martingale strategy. It's not foolproof, but it's not all that bad either. That's practically how a lot of the high stakers make their money.

 

 

No, a lot of the high stakers make their money from people using Martingale.


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How will we do this?

 

Or... Was that all of your solution? You make it sound so easy.

 

It's actually all quite easy. The only reason we are in this mess right is now because Jagex has quite literally sat on their ass for years doing absolutely nothing about this problem, except for a few half-assed things here and there, and then just throwing their hands up in the air and sighing, "well, we tried, back to something else". If they had kept up from the start, we wouldn't be here, or if they just took extreme measures at the start, it would be completely prevented.

 

Just take the dicing/flower game solution. They disapproved of that whole thing, and yet when it came out, did they do anything? Nope. They literally sat on their asses for months, they got rid of the dice games, and then the flower games started. Quite literally the same thing. Did they jump on it right then and squash the thing? Nope. Just waited till months and months and months while it all went on, until they finally got rid of it, when all the damage was done. Prevention, not reaction.

 

Still, it's not late by any means. It would take extreme measures, but the problem is quite solvable. In fact, at Runefest, in one of the sessions that was on the stream, J-Mods were asked to make suggestions which the audience would vote on. One of them suggested that partyhats become untradeable -- if you have any, you're stuck with them, and no one else can buy any. Another J-Mod suggested that they have a boss monster, which instead of dealing damage, actually sucks GP out of your inventory/money pouch/bank -- the ultimate money-sink of sorts. I think the money-sink boss monster was voted the best idea by the audience. I have never thought of or suggested any of these ideas, but it's instructive isn't it? Just about everyone acknowledges that inflation and the amount of money in the game is a horrific problem, and that something be done about it -- it's just that nothing is done about it....



#15
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That boss seems like a fun concept even. Rares are endgoals for some though.

 

We got a bottomless pit!

 

I feel your pain, sadly, Jagex.


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That boss seems like a fun concept even. Rares are endgoals for some though.

 

We got a bottomless pit!

 

I feel your pain, sadly, Jagex.

 

I wouldn't necessarily remove the rares. In a properly deflated economy, they would be harmless. It's only in an economy with trillions of GP, hoarders and people looking to accumulate cash for no reason at all that rares have any potency. 

 

Another point to add is that Runescape has changed a lot in the high level content available. For most of Runescape's history there was no high level content (most of it stopped at 70's or 80's) -- so it sort of made sense that people looked for other goals such as rare collections (those that weren't hoarders anyways). But now for the first time, there is plenty of challenging and impressive high level content. Certainly, more people would inclined towards that as end-game content than other things. I mean, it's even common among veterans to save billions for 200Ms (and even sell their rares for it!). So yeah, rares aren't the end game content that they used to be -- not for the same amount of people anyways. Still, I suppose, there will still be some who feel differently. Again, I don't really have a problem with such people if that's what they choose to do -- as long as the economy is properly deflated and there isn't a concentration of wealth as there is now, it's just all harmless fun. 

 

Interesting to note that OSRS, which doesn't have rares like we do (they have Party Hats but their supply is too plentiful), and they don't have anywhere near the high level or end-game content that we do, and they seem to be doing fine. So rares could certainly be removed from the game if we wanted, but I don't think letting them stay is that bad of a thing either.



#17
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The TS Stormrage article was interesting but I do disagree with most of the conclusions.  Bonds are new. They need more time for the community to adjust to them. They could work out well in the long term. If there is one thing I've learned since their introduction it's that people haven't given them a proper chance to be a culture within the game. 

 

Casino's and other gambling methods of a similar nature? No.  Players selling bonds for real cash? No.  That's not what players should be signing up for.  Let's keep the game a fun place to be.  Let's not go here.

 

Prevention of excessive cash by Yoko - Not a bad idea.  Jagex could also decide simply cut prices of bonds. 

 

When has the community ever taken a significant amount of time to adjust to something? There's a reason why the amount of people online on RS2 and RS3 have been 30/70 almost since it's inception. When free trade was abolished, most people that quit did so in the first month...

 

No the community doesn't adjust... It forms an opinion almost immediately, and acts on that... If something becomes, as you say, part of the RuneScape culture, it is only because people are getting used to it whether they like it or not... Prime examples are of course the Squeal of Fortune and Solomon's Store...

 

Part of enjoying a game for fun is having a game that isn't being corroded from the inside to begin with... This means certain measures will have to be taken, and is what eventually brings us to some of the points in my article...


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#18
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When has the community ever taken a significant amount of time to adjust to something? There's a reason why the amount of people online on RS2 and RS3 have been 30/70 almost since it's inception. When free trade was abolished, most people that quit did so in the first month...

 

No the community doesn't adjust... It forms an opinion almost immediately, and acts on that... If something becomes, as you say, part of the RuneScape culture, it is only because people are getting used to it whether they like it or not... Prime examples are of course the Squeal of Fortune and Solomon's Store...

 

Part of enjoying a game for fun is having a game that isn't being corroded from the inside to begin with... This means certain measures will have to be taken, and is what eventually brings us to some of the points in my article...

 

It takes time for things to settle.  Your judgements are based on a very short time.  Don't you think 'adjustment' and 'getting used to something' are the same thing?

 

Your conclusions to this only bring back gambling and players getting cash.  They are not measures that solve the problem.  Making bonds more attractive than RWT is.  Lower the £price of bonds, give players more runecoins for their money and you'll put a much larger dent in RWT.



#19
Ts_Stormrage
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Making bonds more attractive than RWT is.


Thought I did... By increasing the desire to buy bonds as well as decreasing the GP supply to GP sellers...

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#20
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I think you intentions and outcomes are very noble and I would like to see both.  I'm just disagreeing with some of your methods as they seem over-engineered.  What is wrong with simply lowering bond prices and/or a player getting more for their bonds?







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