Is it fair to make a universal claim about something you do not have universal knowledge about?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Isn't that what theists are constantly doing? Whereas the majority of intelligent atheists say "we don't know, but it is most likely/safer to assume there is no god".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I phrased that wrong. It is unfair to make a universal negative claim about something you do not have universal knowledge about. To know that there isn't B in A, you need to know all of A. But to know that there is C in A, all you need to know is the part of A where C is located, not all of A.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For example, if I wanted to prove to you that there were seeds in an apple, all I would have to do is show you one seed - nothing else. But if I wanted to prove to you that there were no seeds in the apple, I would have to go through every single part of the apple, making cuts and incisions everywhere, because a negative implies universal knowledge, while a positive only needs particular knowledge of the positive premise.

Your not differentiating between active and passive actions, you reveal angry activity in your brain because youÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢re actively being angry; of course your anger is going to show up over your love, thatÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s what youÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢re focusing on more. I guess itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s a bit of a truism; others only pick up on things youÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢re actively trying to reveal (your mother isnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t thinking they sure love me, when she is getting yelled at).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So are you telling me that we can see someone being angry and being calmer when you are focusing calm via meditation yet we can't see love when we overtly act like we are in love; do I really have to start searching for some papers to prove you wrong? What separates love from other abstract feelings like anger and fear?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your brain permanently forms connections in its brain for things such as visual memory, procedure, thoughts and feelings. Just because you arenÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t actively using these connections doesnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t mean they donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t exist at all. When IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m at an animal cruelty protest/pro-vegetarianism rally do I forget how to make a steak sandwich, can you prove I donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t know how to make a steak sandwich when deep down I do? Prove what parts of my brain are active when I make a steak sandwich, otherwise I HAVE to conclude itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s the soul channelling the procedure for a steak sandwich from a divine spirit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course the more physical and active feelings are going to show up easier on SPECT scans - but I would be interested to show me some papers where brain scans can prove that someone loves someone else. (Seperating the emotion of love and lust.) For instance, in high school, several people "love" each other, and later down the road they jsut realized that they were only in lust and liked that person a lot. Can you find me image scans that can prove the feeling someone has of knowing they are with "the one" that differintiates from the feeling of just physical attractive or active emotions. There is a BIG difference but I've never read of an image scan being able to show it.

GhostRanger, what you are saying implies that love exists and that everyone accepts this - which is simply not true.

GhostRanger, what you are saying implies that love exists and that everyone accepts this - which is simply not true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So then you believe that love doesn't exist, correct? Meaning that you only really like your family (maybe not at all) and that when I believe I love my friends, family, and most importantly, my girlfriend, I'm actually just experiencing strong feelings of "liking" them and affection towards my girlfriend. I don't truly love them. I assume that's what you believe, right?

Im only gonna post once here and tell you all straight up, Yes I believe in God. But Im a terrible sinner lol....

Im only gonna post once here and tell you all straight up, Yes I believe in God. But Im a terrible sinner lol....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have fun in hell. :lol:

 

GhostRanger, what you are saying implies that love exists and that everyone accepts this - which is simply not true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So then you believe that love doesn't exist, correct? Meaning that you only really like your family (maybe not at all) and that when I believe I love my friends, family, and most importantly, my girlfriend, I'm actually just experiencing strong feelings of "liking" them and affection towards my girlfriend. I don't truly love them. I assume that's what you believe, right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As usual, wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you read my post I am stating that some people don't believe it exists. I never made any reference to myself. I do believe it exists.

 

 

GhostRanger, what you are saying implies that love exists and that everyone accepts this - which is simply not true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So then you believe that love doesn't exist, correct? Meaning that you only really like your family (maybe not at all) and that when I believe I love my friends, family, and most importantly, my girlfriend, I'm actually just experiencing strong feelings of "liking" them and affection towards my girlfriend. I don't truly love them. I assume that's what you believe, right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As usual, wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you read my post I am stating that some people don't believe it exists. I never made any reference to myself. I do believe it exists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Its actually not a matter of me being right or wrong. I simply made an assumption in order for you to give me an answer. Rhetoric I've found is a lot like the scientific method. You make a hypothesis and then you test it. If you were wrong, it doesn't really matter because you at least found out what you wanted to know. I asked you a question for a very specific reason because I wanted to know what you believe. In order to get the best answer from you, I made an assumption. And it worked, because now I know that you believe love exists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because you believe in love, a love that cannot be proven with physical evidence, then you should have no problem understanding that people believe in God because of something they feel. If you believe in love but wholey accept that some people do not, can it be argued that God is any different?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Therefore, since neither offers proof, I put fourth the idea that my belief in God has as much base as your disbelief in Him. Do you agree?

No.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Love is a concept, just as god is a concept - both are ideas and feelings and not physical entities. Love is just what we call a certain feeling, just as god is what people call a different feeling.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Someone could think they are in love just because they feel a certain way, whereas it could simply be what they are calling love as they don't know any better. The same can be said for god - someone could think there's a god because they feel like something must have created the world but it doesn't mean that it is the case.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My belief of love is that its what you call a feeling of attraction that you couldn't imagine being any stronger. My belief of god is that people invent him because they can't comprehend lack of knowledge, aren't capable of understanding that things can exist without you knowing how YET.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's like having a half-finished jigsaw then going and fabricating a massive piece that fits the rest of the unoccupied space because you can't be bothered to wait and find the right place for each small piece.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyhow, I've had enough of the ridiculous 'jumps' of logic so I'm calling it a day. No one will agree, and conflict is too rife. Whilst I think a lot of these statements were unfounded and wrong, many of them were presented in a mature manner and to those that did that and didn't act like insolent mid-teens I take off my hat.

No.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Love is a concept, just as god is a concept - both are ideas and feelings and not physical entities. Love is just what we call a certain feeling, just as god is what people call a different feeling.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Someone could think they are in love just because they feel a certain way, whereas it could simply be what they are calling love as they don't know any better. The same can be said for god - someone could think there's a god because they feel like something must have created the world but it doesn't mean that it is the case.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What you say doesn't contradict my point.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You say that someone could feel they are love whereas is is simply what they are calling it since they don't know any better. But you say that you believe love does exist. If you believe love exists, I believe God exists, and neither offers physical proof - who is to say either is wrong?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If we are talking about feelings that are in inherent to ourselves, who is to say we are wrong?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Surely you can't believe something exists, and then say its perfectly acceptable for people to believe it doesn't exist. If you take that stance, then you don't believe love exists - because things either exist or they don't.

I did say I was done, but I have returned to clarify my reply.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are comparing the name of a type of emotion to a physical entity that physically influences real matter. That is not a valid comparison.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Belief that there is a feeling that people call love is not even in the same ballpark as believing that a magical creator physically (and physically is the key word here) created the world and everything in it and influences it constantly, the two cannot be compared.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is all.

I did say I was done, but I have returned to clarify my reply.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You are comparing the name of a type of emotion to a physical entity that physically influences real matter. That is not a valid comparison.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Belief that there is a feeling that people call love is not even in the same ballpark as believing that a magical creator physically (and physically is the key word here) created the world and everything in it and influences it constantly, the two cannot be compared.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That is all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't expect a reply since you're done, but I will assume you're going to at least read this. (First let me say that I don't know why when I loaded it that I only got half of your response unless you added to it after I quoted you. In any case, that wasn't on purpose either way I'm sure.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe they are comparable because of the nature in which I compare them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For instance, there are people in the world who believe that they have met their "soul mate" who they are in love with, meant to be in love with, and are meant to spend the rest of their life with. Others, believe this is ridiculous and impossible. For those that believe in soul mates, its not just a feeling they believe in, its a destiny to be with that person. No one can and no one attempts to prove them wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People who believe in God claim to feel his presence and to feel Him as he guides their life. There is no physical evidence for either claim, and neither can be proven true or false. Its a belief.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your reference about the jigsaw puzzle works for lots of situations, I give you that. But not all. There are plenty of scientific theists who don't use God to make up for what they understand. For instance, I could believe in every piece of science the world offers, and believe we are still discovering. I could believe all of these things and at the same time believe that at the beginning of time, God created it all. So while your analogy works in some cases, it clearly cannot lump sum all theists together.

 

Im only gonna post once here and tell you all straight up, Yes I believe in God. But Im a terrible sinner lol....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have fun in hell. :lol:

 

 

 

Ok maybe I'll post twice. I'm not as bad of a sinner as you think I am. So dont assume that im going to hell. Im Catholic and I go to confession often. But I think ive broken every commandment except the 1rst and the 3rd at least once.

 

 

Im only gonna post once here and tell you all straight up, Yes I believe in God. But Im a terrible sinner lol....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have fun in hell. :lol:

 

 

 

Ok maybe I'll post twice. I'm not as bad of a sinner as you think I am. So dont assume that im going to hell. Im Catholic and I go to confession often. But I think ive broken every commandment except the 1rst and the 3rd at least once.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Commandment 6 says:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"You shall not murder."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...Do I have enough to reason to say that I'm slightly worried? :P

Really im waiting for some hard evidence

GhostRanger: It's true that religion and science don't have to be mutually exclusive. However I beleive that it shows that you yourself have conflicting views on the subject. I myself was raised a christian. Then I started to learn about science, and I thought "Hey, God could still exist..". Then I thought about it more, and realized that in reality, the chances of a supreme incorporeal being having created things "in the begining" just conflicted with rationality, and I stopped beleiving in it, for the most part.

 

 

 

To me it shows more faith to realize all of the "facts" and realize that your view of the world conflicts with those "facts", and still beleive in it anyway. To beleive in God and say all of these "facts" also exist is just a cop-out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anesthesia: I love your jigsaw analogy.. best I've heard in a while.

GhostRanger: It's true that religion and science don't have to be mutually exclusive. However I beleive that it shows that you yourself have conflicting views on the subject. I myself was raised a christian. Then I started to learn about science, and I thought "Hey, God could still exist..". Then I thought about it more, and realized that in reality, the chances of a supreme incorporeal being having created things "in the begining" just conflicted with rationality, and I stopped beleiving in it, for the most part.

 

 

 

To me it shows more faith to realize all of the "facts" and realize that your view of the world conflicts with those "facts", and still beleive in it anyway. To beleive in God and say all of these "facts" also exist is just a cop-out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm curious about how it conflicts with rationality because I tend to pride myself on my rational and logical approach to philosophy. Could you explain in a little more detail?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT: I also reccommend to EVERYONE The Question of God for an objective comparison between Frued and C.S. Lewis' belief. Its absolutely fascinating to see their arguments pitted against each other. There is also a DVD available if I remember correctly.

Basically a statistical rationality, but, you won't be skewed by anything I say, and frankly, I won't be skewed by anything you say. So, let's take the shorter route and end this before it starts and save both of us time.

Yes, I believe in God. And Fleshstabber said that he had probably broken every commandment besides 1 and 3. Ghost said (too lazy to quote) that the 6th says clearly not to kill. He prolly just forgot...

 

 

 

Im only gonna post once here and tell you all straight up, Yes I believe in God. But Im a terrible sinner lol....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have fun in hell. :lol:

 

 

 

Ok maybe I'll post twice. I'm not as bad of a sinner as you think I am. So dont assume that im going to hell. Im Catholic and I go to confession often. But I think ive broken every commandment except the 1rst and the 3rd at least once.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Commandment 6 says:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"You shall not murder."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...Do I have enough to reason to say that I'm slightly worried? :P

 

 

 

Commandment 6 says though shall not have sex outside of marriage. Commandment 5 says though shall not kill. I have never killed people but i've beat the crap out of some and made fun of countless people.

 

 

 

 

Im only gonna post once here and tell you all straight up, Yes I believe in God. But Im a terrible sinner lol....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have fun in hell. :lol:

 

 

 

Ok maybe I'll post twice. I'm not as bad of a sinner as you think I am. So dont assume that im going to hell. Im Catholic and I go to confession often. But I think ive broken every commandment except the 1rst and the 3rd at least once.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Commandment 6 says:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"You shall not murder."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...Do I have enough to reason to say that I'm slightly worried? :P

 

 

 

Commandment 6 says though shall not have sex outside of marriage. Commandment 5 says though shall not kill. I have never killed people but i've beat the crap out of some and made fun of countless people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I urge you to take out a Bible and read it. Here you go:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1. You shall not worship any other god but YHWH.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. You shall not make a graven image.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3. You shall not take the name of YHWH in vain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4. You shall not break the Sabbath.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

5. You shall not dishonor your parents.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

6. You shall not murder.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

7. You shall not commit adultery

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

8. You shall not steal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

9. You shall not commit perjury.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

10. You shall not covet.

Yes, I believe in God. And Fleshstabber said that he had probably broken every commandment besides 1 and 3. Ghost said (too lazy to quote) that the 6th says clearly not to kill. He prolly just forgot...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe he killed a squirrel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It said do not kill. It didn't limit that to humans. :o

 

Yes, I believe in God. And Fleshstabber said that he had probably broken every commandment besides 1 and 3. Ghost said (too lazy to quote) that the 6th says clearly not to kill. He prolly just forgot...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe he killed a squirrel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It said do not kill. It didn't limit that to humans. :o

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would also like to point out that it does not use the word kill, it instead says "murder." Until killing squirrels becomes illegal, its not considered murder. :P

No no, killing squirrels is okay. God put them there for you to kill for food/clothing(not for fun).

No no, killing squirrels is okay. God put them there for you to kill for food/clothing(not for fun).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know I know, I just wanted to point out that you can translate every part of the bible very differently. Thus why debates like these will never find a true resolution...