Anesthesia Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 That's open to alot of interpretation, and that's where problems come in. It is my personal belief that God's character IS the standard - but I also believe the government's job is NOT to enforce that, as not everyone believes in it. That doesn't say how man came to know them, or modern society for that matter. Some people are changed by being a moderator. I wouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insane Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 That's open to alot of interpretation, and that's where problems come in. It is my personal belief that God's character IS the standard - but I also believe the government's job is NOT to enforce that, as not everyone believes in it. That doesn't say how man came to know them, or modern society for that matter. Well any answer I give would just end up being classified as my personal opinion, would it not? I believe it was through Christ Jesus; the standard being, above all things, love God and love all people. I'm going to stop posting here - I believe I've made my points a little too vocal, and I hate creating animosity here. I don't think badly of any of you at all, just for the record. My posts may seem that way, but it's not the case ;) that's why i moderate these boards, because i love the users, and I rarely let my personal beliefs get me hostile towards other people (excpet in an argument ABOUT them :P). Mainly because my personal beliefs are that, I should be as loving and peaceful as possible, and not to judge (I don't believe debating is showing judgmentalness, as I don't think less of you for your views) If you wish to continue this with me, just give me a pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d-von Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 here's a litle story there was a man once with a pretty normal life, he worked at an office. married, had 2 kids, a nice house and stuff. a few friends of this man where metalheads and listened all day to metalrock one of these friends was a guitarist in a good band called ancient rites. he went to a lot of concerts and stuff. when suddenly his wife became a cristian, she disaproved his music. it got worse when his oldest son started getting intrested in metal. as a good dad he went to some cool concerts around with his son, after a few weeks his son was a metalhead, since his son was really short for his age everyone liked him, a small kid headbanging right in fron of the band with beer in his hands (here in the netherlands u can drink beer at 16 year). but his wife started to annoy this man. she went to meetings with other cristians to talk about there faith and about how wrong other people where and how they would pay the prive for there lifes. his wife started to meet strange people who really tried to take the man down, now this man is going really early to his work and comes home late, and when he is home he is playing his guitar, his oldest son is really mad at his mom and how she tried to convince him to become a cristian against his will. the oldest son is so mad he really hopes his parents are divorcing, not just for himself but also to get his old dad back. this story is about my dad, im the oldest son and my mother ruined our family with her faith :? not everybody wants to hear the bubblegum pop garbage.im gonna burn in hell and drink all of satans beer.trashmetal/deathmetal/hardrock/folkmetal die hard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiery_Gyr Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Omg, that's bad :S A friend of mine lives in the same kind of situation as you and she just don't know what to think anymore? Why can't your mom see that you're happy the way you are? :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anesthesia Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Well any answer I give would just end up being classified as my personal opinion, would it not? I believe it was through Christ Jesus; the standard being, above all things, love God and love all people. No we're talking about facts here... You say these rules to live by exist, and for that to be so then there must be a hard copy of them. If you think "no, people just passed them on" then surely that is open to dozens of generations worth of bias and untruth. What I am getting at is that there is no reliable sourch for these so called universal laws (no, don't say the bible because it's a 2-thousand year old book written by many people and translated by even more) and so they are invalid. Each person interprets them in their own way, leading to extremists who persecute homosexuals for example. Some people are changed by being a moderator. I wouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 What I am getting at is that there is no reliable sourch for these so called universal laws Which is basically what I said two pages ago. I'm still sitting here wondering why both insane and all the 'atheist' people completely ignored me/it, and went off flaming eachother to a point where people are walking away because they think they might just have driven their point a bit too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyPurpleCrayon Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I just can't believe you christians believe you are all good people. Where do you get the nerves to say such a thing? :? You claim that you are good because of your religion and that atheists can't be good because they can't have a moral? That's just so sick. If somebody had a moral it WILL be an atheist, because they have their OWN and PERSONAL moral. We don't wanna go to heaven of hell or wherever you wanna send us to, we wanna live with our own moral and ideas, so we can be happy in life and have a feeling that we reached something before we die! This is about the dumbest thing I have ever read in my life. First of all, it stereotypes all Christians to be the same, which is flat out ridiculous. Us Christians, meaning me, think that I am a good person because I have good morals. I think that being a Christian gives me a set of morals that I should follow, and my morals are in no way evil or bad. You cannot base what you say off of moral relativism. Write and wrong ethics (NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY) are in NO way arbitrary. You cannot define your own set of morals. (i.e) It is obvious that killing someone is wrong, just becuase you say killing someone is good, doesn't make you a good person. Not only do you generalize all Christians, but you generalize all Athiests. WOW!!! That is like me saying "Every fruit is a banana". :roll: This post is worst than any of the above posts, and it is so stereotypically sick. Everything you say disgusts me. Ghost: I am prejudice towards ignorance, so that would explain why I appear to be so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anesthesia Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I'm still sitting here wondering why both insane and all the 'atheist' people completely ignored me/it, and went off flaming eachother to a point where people are walking away because they think they might just have driven their point a bit too far. Because you had garlic for lunch! Nah I think it's because when two people get in a one-on-one they start to only read the other's replies. Some people are changed by being a moderator. I wouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyPurpleCrayon Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 No we're talking about facts here... You say these rules to live by exist, and for that to be so then there must be a hard copy of them. If you think "no, people just passed them on" then surely that is open to dozens of generations worth of bias and untruth. What I am getting at is that there is no reliable sourch for these so called universal laws (no, don't say the bible because it's a 2-thousand year old book written by many people and translated by even more) and so they are invalid. Each person interprets them in their own way, leading to extremists who persecute homosexuals for example. No, we're not talking about facts here, we are talking about religion. There is an obvious difference, is there not? And you 'Atheists' have your views, and we have ours. There is no combining the two, and there are no agreements. Ghost: I am prejudice towards ignorance, so that would explain why I appear to be so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anesthesia Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 No, we are talking about facts. To a religious person these are their facts, their realities, that's why it's a religion. :roll: Yes, there is no point in discussing this - as I implied with my very first post to this. The only reason people do because they feel they have to correct untruths. :roll: Maybe if I use enough :roll: I can make myself look intelligent. :roll: Some people are changed by being a moderator. I wouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyPurpleCrayon Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 No, we are talking about facts. To a religious person these are their facts, their realities, that's why it's a religion. :roll: Yes, there is no point in discussing this - as I implied with my very first post to this. The only reason people do because they feel they have to correct untruths. :roll: Maybe if I use enough :roll: I can make myself look intelligent. :roll: Okay, since I used a " :roll: ". Learn to read, thanks. Ghost: I am prejudice towards ignorance, so that would explain why I appear to be so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anesthesia Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I never claimed you used it in that reply. :roll: Learn to read, thanks. Some people are changed by being a moderator. I wouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korskin Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I believe in God. I know enough apologetics to defend my own faith and I'm currently studying at a bible school, where we learn about basically all ethical systems that are used or have been used by people. Though I don't think that I would be able to convert many by saying: "Haha, your ethical system is inconsequent and unreasonable, only a fool could live by that." However you can create an interesting debate, where people really seem to get worked up. I think the reason why so many are atheists and don't want to see the light is because of sin. They don't want walk down the narrow path leading to heaven, instead they want to live by their own standards and decide everything themselves. To obey a God seems stupid and life would be so much better if you just live it your own way. But God's love for us is great and it's beyond our understanding. I just wish for everyone to have a relationship with God, because nothing is better. Everything in life seems so small when you think of what Jesus has done for you and what really matters in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwarfie76 Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I think the reason why so many are atheists and don't want to see the light is because of sin. They don't want walk down the narrow path leading to heaven, instead they want to live by their own standards and decide everything themselves. To obey a God seems stupid and life would be so much better if you just live it your own way. So you think the only reason anyone would be an atheist is because they would prefer not to feel guilty about a life of looting and pillaging? To tell the truth, I believe that the reason most religious people cling to their faith is because it makes life easier for them. They don't have to think for themselves, just follow the instructions that are written down for them and if, by chance, they stumble into a moral or ethical dillema, just trot down to see the local pastor/rabbi/imam/priest and get some more instructions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trunksrs Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I believe in God. I honestly believe that I would not be alive today without some kind of higher being helping me along, I have just survived so many situations that I can't find any other reasonable explanation for. In school I was a member of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, and we studied a book about wether or not God exsited to help answer any questions the other students might have. The author of this book was an athiest, and got the ideal for the book from a coworker, who he discovered one day was a Christian. He told his cowork "I thought you would be smarter than to believe in God" to wich he replied "I thought you would be smarter than to not believe." So he set out to disprove Christianity with this book, and while doing his research, only found evidence of God's existence. Sorry, I can't remember the author or the book, but if anyone is interested, I'm sure I can get this information for you. Look, if your mom still drops you off at school, you ain't gangsta, pull up your damn pants!3 down, 7 to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korskin Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 To tell the truth, I believe that the reason most religious people cling to their faith is because it makes life easier for them. They don't have to think for themselves, just follow the instructions that are written down for them and if, by chance, they stumble into a moral or ethical dillema, just trot down to see the local pastor/rabbi/imam/priest and get some more instructions. Yeah sure life is so much easier...when you struggle all day not to sin against the God who you love more than anything else. And especially when you always seem to let him down no matter how hard you try. And to actually believe that there is a God that still loves you and will forgive a person like me who is an incureable egoist. You do have a point, you shouldn't just buy everything that says in the bible and by christian leaders without questioning it. Basically that's exactly what my school is trying to achieve, to question everything from an objective view, not an atheistic view nor a christian. Though sometimes God's will is beyond my understanding and I surrender to his will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralinre Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Ok, allow me to clarify my earlier post, as it has been completely misunderstood. (And thank you, Insane, for defending it for me. :)) I was speaking of absolute good and evil. If that which is eternal and self-existant is impersonal (If matter and energy are those things which have always existed... then there is no way for us to know true good and evil. Matter and energy cannot speak and tell us a definite code of morals. However, if the eternal self-existant substace is personal (If a god exists...) then it can speak to us and tell us what that absolute standard of morality is. That is why, under an atheistic worldview, no person can be truly good - because there is no way to know what is truly good, or if there even exists an absolute goodness. Of course, there is subjective, cultural goodness. Someone can still follow the laws of his society and do what he believes to be right. But there is no standard for him to measure his morals against. What he views as good, another may view as evil, and there is no way to choose one above the other. But in a theistic worldview, the infinite-personal being can speak to us and tell us what true good and evil is. Then we can measure one man's morals against another's and truly know good and evil, then we can truly be good. I was not trying to bash atheists or be "holier than thou" at all, and I hope you understand the post was grounded in philosophy, not in my arrogance. If I didn't do a satisfactory job of explaining my point, I suggest you read He Is There and He Is Not Silent by Francis Schaeffer, or any number of his other works. There's several good quotes in the book on the topic, but I can't find my book right now, and this is the most relevant quote I can find. "Morals, under every form of pantheism, have no meaning as morals, for everything in pan-everythingism is finally equal. Modern theology must move towards situational ethics because there is no such thing as morals in this setting. The word morals is used, but it is really only a word. " "In so far as I am Man I am the chief of creatures. In so far as I am a man I am the chief of sinners." - G.K. Chesterton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyPurpleCrayon Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I never claimed you used it in that reply. :roll: Learn to read, thanks. It was a reply to my statement so don't act like it wasn't. Ghost: I am prejudice towards ignorance, so that would explain why I appear to be so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anesthesia Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Of course, there is subjective, cultural goodness. Do you not understand that this is exactly what christian morals are? They are the morals agreed upon by christians - the only difference is they think that someone else made them up. Christianity is a culture, same as Islam, Judaism and all the other religions. But in a theistic worldview, the infinite-personal being can speak to us and tell us what true good and evil is. Then we can measure one man's morals against another's and truly know good and evil, then we can truly be good. I'm sure two men often claim that this being has told them different and maybe conflicting things. Some people are changed by being a moderator. I wouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralinre Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Of course, there is subjective, cultural goodness. Do you not understand that this is exactly what christian morals are? They are the morals agreed upon by christians - the only difference is they think that someone else made them up. Christianity is a culture, same as Islam, Judaism and all the other religions. Would you please just ignore the fact that I'm a Christian and take a moment to look at the philosophic reasons I gave for my statement? If you'd actually look at my argument, I never said that Christianity was right. All I said is that without an infinite-personal being, there can be no real morals. But in a theistic worldview, the infinite-personal being can speak to us and tell us what true good and evil is. Then we can measure one man's morals against another's and truly know good and evil, then we can truly be good. I'm sure two men often claim that this being has told them different and maybe conflicting things. I'm not talking about what men claim. I'm talking about philosophy, and the effect that metaphysics has on morality. "In so far as I am Man I am the chief of creatures. In so far as I am a man I am the chief of sinners." - G.K. Chesterton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anesthesia Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Would you please just ignore the fact that I'm a Christian and take a moment to look at the philosophic reasons I gave for my statement? If you'd actually look at my argument, I never said that Christianity was right. All I said is that without an infinite-personal being, there can be no real morals. I understand the philosophical reasons you gave, I just don't agree with them. I just think that people who need to feel there are moral absolutes invent this being so they can have them. I however, don't feel the need for moral absolutes so I don't agree with that philosophy. You gave a good reason for why 'there are no real morals without an infinite-personal being', I just don't think there are 'real' morals at all, so I don't need to subscribe to that. Some people are changed by being a moderator. I wouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralinre Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Would you please just ignore the fact that I'm a Christian and take a moment to look at the philosophic reasons I gave for my statement? If you'd actually look at my argument, I never said that Christianity was right. All I said is that without an infinite-personal being, there can be no real morals. I understand the philosophical reasons you gave, I just don't agree with them. I just think that people who need to feel there are moral absolutes invent this being so they can have them. I however, don't feel the need for moral absolutes so I don't agree with that philosophy. You gave a good reason for why 'there are no real morals without an infinite-personal being', I just don't think there are 'real' morals at all, so I don't need to subscribe to that. Right, you don't believe in a infininte-personal being, nor you do believe in real morals, so you're being consistant - your metaphysics agree with your morals. My post was saying that claiming real morality and claiming atheism created a contradiction. Under atheism, good is a purely subjective term. That was my whole point, and everything was blown way out of proportion. "In so far as I am Man I am the chief of creatures. In so far as I am a man I am the chief of sinners." - G.K. Chesterton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anesthesia Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 No, I believe your point was that no atheist can be a good person by your values if his beliefs are true. The only difference with an atheist's values is that the person is judged as good or not by everyone else individually as opposed to one central label. Some people are changed by being a moderator. I wouldn't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GhostRanger Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Would you please just ignore the fact that I'm a Christian and take a moment to look at the philosophic reasons I gave for my statement? If you'd actually look at my argument, I never said that Christianity was right. All I said is that without an infinite-personal being, there can be no real morals. I understand the philosophical reasons you gave, I just don't agree with them. I just think that people who need to feel there are moral absolutes invent this being so they can have them. I however, don't feel the need for moral absolutes so I don't agree with that philosophy. You gave a good reason for why 'there are no real morals without an infinite-personal being', I just don't think there are real morals at all, so I don't need to subscribe to that. Hate to jump in here, but I have some questions for you. :P As a moral relativist, you don't believe in right and wrong. Period. So do you believe that breaking laws is okay? I understand the point that laws are in place by civilization and so if we break them, we should be punished. But is it wrong to break the laws? Afterall, the laws are something put into place by the majority's will, but if there is no right and wrong, then breaking the laws is not morally wrong, correct? So my question is not whether or not you think you should be punished for it, but do you think that if I killed your parents I was doing something wrong or was I just breaking a law? And furthermore, if nothing is ever considered wrong (you claim to believe in no absolute), and what is considered socially right and wrong is only up to the community, is it acceptable for a country to step into another country and stop genocide? For instance, if a leader in Austrailia started killing mass amounts of a certain race and the majority (a different race) supported this, would it be acceptable for the U.N. to stop the genocide? Because in that situation, the majority of that civilization believes that genocide is perfectly right, and therefore no one should be able to tell them they are wrong. So is right and wrong determined by the majority, or is determined by whoever is the strongest? Or are those the same thing and we should look at majority from an international perspective? I'm not being rude, ignorant, or anything that would call for a sarcastic jeer back so please answer my questions in a civilized manner. I also never mentioned my religion in this post so I hope its not brought up. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwarfie76 Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 without an infinite-personal being, there can be no real morals. So what do you make of Holyoake's arguments then that we can indeed deduce a set of universal morals from purely secular utilitarian maxims? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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