Do YOU believe in God?

[Godzira]

Maybe not, and there are plenty of people on here including several poster this page that have come on and said ÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¢â¬ÅI love god ectÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬ÃâÃ

[Astralinre]

Logic, you probally missed this, since it was buried so quickly under three more pages of posts, but I addressed a post to you a while back. :)

 

 

 

Ok, I know I've come in rather late to this part of the discussion, but I've been out of town and have something to say to Logic about Mere Christianity.

 

 

 

I always interpreted Lewis's point about all cultures having the same basic values as talking about abstract values, not concrete applications. While not all cultures agree on the things you mentioned, nearly all cultures value honor, loyalty, respect, love, honesty, life, and the like. They simply have different ways of applying and expressing those values.

[Godzira]

Let me also state that I know Christians feel like telling people they are going to hell if they donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t believe, but let me give you an insight into the non-believers reaction to it. ItÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s childish. You can believe that IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m going to hell but making sure that I know that is intimidation. IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m not intimidated mind you because I do not believe that. However, that is still how it comes across. IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m only stating this because I think some Christians donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t get that we see it as rude.

[MyPurpleCrayon]

 

 

 

but it doesnÃÆââ¬Å¡ÃâÃ

[MyPurpleCrayon]

^^To MPC: I just read your post asking why atheists argue/debate^^ It's a little late, but the reason I debate is to know the truth. I want to clarify what I believe to be true and correct my thinking where ever it is wrong. My goal is actually not to trample other people's beliefs, although it might seem like it at times. If I believe one thing and somebody else believes I'm wrong, then one of us is not seeing the truth. My goal is to find it.

 

 

 

Yeah, that's totally understandable.

 

I definitely respect what you are doing.

[logic-is-overrated]

Logic, you probally missed this, since it was buried so quickly under three more pages of posts, but I addressed a post to you a while back. :)

 

 

 

Ok, I know I've come in rather late to this part of the discussion, but I've been out of town and have something to say to Logic about Mere Christianity.

 

 

 

I always interpreted Lewis's point about all cultures having the same basic values as talking about abstract values, not concrete applications. While not all cultures agree on the things you mentioned, nearly all cultures value honor, loyalty, respect, love, honesty, life, and the like. They simply have different ways of applying and expressing those values.

But who decides which values apply? Using the examples Lewis gave like not running away in battle and not double crossing people, I think a good argument can be made that those are simply values that are required for a civilization to endure or values that logically allow for progress. It just seems to me to be more of a picking and choosing type thing.

[Godzira]

If you cannot get why I see this as offensive rhetoric that does nothing to further understanding between members you are obviously the one with reading comprehension problems. DonÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t act as though IÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢m going around getting personal with people because you are the one that is launching attacks even after I explained my reaction to the post. I said the comment wasnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t helpful. Was that rude? A little, but I feel that the post was rude for the reasons I outlined. I didnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t call the poster stupid or attack him personally the way that you are attacking me.

 

 

 

For your information I read quite well.

[Godzira]

Logic, you probally missed this, since it was buried so quickly under three more pages of posts, but I addressed a post to you a while back. :)

 

 

 

Ok, I know I've come in rather late to this part of the discussion, but I've been out of town and have something to say to Logic about Mere Christianity.

 

 

 

I always interpreted Lewis's point about all cultures having the same basic values as talking about abstract values, not concrete applications. While not all cultures agree on the things you mentioned, nearly all cultures value honor, loyalty, respect, love, honesty, life, and the like. They simply have different ways of applying and expressing those values.

But who decides which values apply? Using the examples Lewis gave like not running away in battle and not double crossing people, I think a good argument can be made that those are simply values that are required for a civilization to endure or values that logically allow for progress. It just seems to me to be more of a picking and choosing type thing.

 

 

 

I donÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t think itÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢s so much picking and choosing as it is adapting common sense to social and environmental conditions. I think that this can be seen by the level to which civilizations value the different core principals.

[Fantasylord5]

i dont believe in any god. moreover i dislike religion in general for it has caused almost every war in the history of mankind

 

science disproves all religious theories execpt: what created the universe, that is the only questioned unanswered by science and where religion has an explination

[Bloodyrb]

i dont believe in any god. moreover i dislike religion in general for it has caused almost every war in the history of mankind

 

science disproves all religious theories execpt: what created the universe, that is the only questioned unanswered by science and where religion has an explination

 

 

 

yeah righht...

 

 

 

i dislike ppl that dont believe in some sort of god...

 

 

 

dude science... omg your stupid... :roll:

[Bloodyrb]

no i dont, there is no proof.

 

 

 

omg i hate people saying that!

 

 

 

must there be proof??

[Not]

no i dont, there is no proof.

 

 

 

omg i hate people saying that!

 

 

 

must there be proof??

 

 

 

There must be proof for those who don't have blind faith.

 

 

 

How is science stupid? I guess if you believe in an afterlife there isn't any reason to figure this reality out is there?

[scyzor349]

Well it was a long and interesting read. Just wanted to say one thing. Somewhere near the front someone said that since god was eternal then he didn't come from nothing, ect. Well my thought here is this. If you can call this "God" eternal, everlasting, diddn't come from nothing because it was already here, then what is the problem with saying the same thing about the universe itself. I was raised catholic, and the qualities they give God are very humanlike to a degree. "He" is omnipotent, "He" created this and that "He" is eternal, ect... now this "He" really seems like theyre referring to something we can categorize, since we were created in his image:\

 

 

 

Ive heard the "you cant create something from nothing, so that means God exists excuse", but honestly, if one can call God an eternal everlasting from beginning of time to end of time being, then its plausable to say that MAYBE something else can be that way? Why do we need to introduce this middleman into the eternity and infinity question? God is infinite, then he creates everything. How about everything is infinite, strait up, without a creator.

 

 

 

God was always there> creates stuff> now here everything is, atoms, ect

 

OR

 

Everything that exists that we know of has always existed> here we are.

 

 

 

"Matter cannot be created or destroyed" < If thats the case, there is no end to matter, its always gonna be there, so is it entirely to believe that it will always be here, and HAS always been here?Why bring the mysitcal energy/person/god/whatever to create it?

 

 

 

Also, a side note on the whole creation by chance thing... when we begin to talk about matter that has been around forever and will be around forever then numbers and odds mean absolutely nothing. On a timeline of infinity even the most astronomical odds can easily come true.

[HugATree]

 

i dislike ppl that dont believe in some sort of god...

 

 

 

 

Not everyone finds imaginary friends appealing.

[havesometea1]

"Behold, i am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beggining and the End. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. I, Jesus have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning star." Revelation 22:12-16. I belive that on the Day of Judgement, all the questions will be answered, and all will see the truth.

 

 

 

And I believe the when the Flying Spaghetti Monster comes back he is going to smite ppl who believe this with his noodly appendages.

 

 

 

http://www.venganza.org/

[pianofrieak2]

 

 

 

Lol, no that's another religion but I'm not going to name it. Actually, if that were the case, then all nations would be "Christian"...or at the very least "Judaism." Instead, look at the size of Israel.

 

 

 

I don't think my Muslim friends would find the above statement that funny. Look, everyone knows you're talking about Islam. There is absolutely no need to associate the acts of a few fanatics with an entire religion. Just because there have been Christian terrorists (ie Timothy McVeigh) doesn't mean people assume that Christianity is a violent religion. They rightly examine the entire religion and its teachings in context. I think it's foolish and ignorant to stereotype Muslims as being inherently violent and expansionist. As someone who has been to the Middle East, I can say that the vast majority of Muslims suffer from the acts committed by a few delusional people. Also, I question your historical scholarship. Islam spread quickly from its source on the Arabian peninsula primarly because of the incredible commercial links between Africa and Asia Minor. Military conquest had much less to do with the expansion of Islam than many people think. It was the merchants of the Middle East who did the grunt work.

 

 

 

I didn't say that to spite Islam. Actually, I have muslim, hindu, Jews, agnostics, and atheistic friends. And, for the recrd, Islam isn't the only fighting religion. Why do you think India and Pakistan are always fighting? One's Islam, the other's Hindu and they HATE each other.

 

 

 

Too bad they both have nukes...

 

 

 

As for the Islamic terrorists, they're merely obeying the Koran. Have you read it? I'll find the right surah for you in one of my books but I'll have to find it first. For Islam spreading quickly, you are correct in saying its location and merchants was important. But Islam didn't REALLY spread quickly until Mohammed had captured Mecca and Medina, by forcing everyone there to be a muslim or die.

 

 

 

That's a pleasant beginning.

 

 

 

Also to address the second part of your argument, Christianity could not have, and did not conquer areas outside of Europe due to military force. The crusades were a staggering military failure. It was only with the expansion of colonialism and the militarization of European societies through nationalism that Christianity began to gain a significant foothold outside of Europe. Israel is small because the territory that it started off with in 1948 was small. Even the establishment of such a small country caused great upheaval in the Middle East.

 

 

 

Since when did I say Christianity conquered areas outside of Europe? I will agree with you in saying that the crusades were a complete failture. But it was because Richard the LionHeart went out to fight and no one else joined him. They all betrayed him at the end to enlarge their territories, leaving him undermanned and way underpowered.

 

 

 

 

Actually, the cause for the growth of Christianity is a changed heart. As well as true joy, a peace that surpasses all understanding, and an overflowing love for others.

 

 

 

Religiously, and for you, that may be the case. But it was colonialism that spread Christianity more quickly than anything before or since. In the 21st century, demographic trends indicate that Christianity is on the decline, and may continue to decline, despite its strong presence in many areas of the world.

 

 

 

Colonialism may have spread Catholicism, but I would separate Catholicism and its rituals from Jesus' teachings. Colonialism spread the power of the individual nations in the name of God. But not really. And then, when it did spread, it was through rituals and acts that were necessary for salvation, not at all what Jesus Himself taught.

[havesometea1]

Ya, that was helpful. :roll:

 

 

 

Are you KIDDING me?

 

Give him a break. Not everyone wants to argue with your pathetic self.

 

 

 

 

 

Hrmmm....didn't the mod say to stop flaming?

[MyPurpleCrayon]

Hrmmm....didn't the mod say to stop flaming?

 

 

 

He was being rude to someone, I felt the need to defend that person.

 

And that is also why we continued our discussion in PM's. :wink:

[havesometea1]

Hrmmm....didn't the mod say to stop flaming?

 

 

 

He was being rude to someone, I felt the need to defend that person.

 

And that is also why we continued our discussion in PM's. :wink:

 

 

 

So your need to defend someone gives you the excuse to break the rules of the forum and disobey a mod who has already told ppl to stop flaming?

 

 

 

WWJD?

[Godzira]

Just ignore him, he doesn't listen and it's not worth the time. Trust me.

[MyPurpleCrayon]

So your need to defend someone gives you the excuse to break the rules of the forum and disobey a mod who has already told ppl to stop flaming?

 

 

 

And so your need to voice your opinion gave you the right to break the rules of the forum. Afterall, your post didn't contribute to the discussion and was entirely off-topic.

 

 

 

2.2 - Stay on Topic

 

 

 

Maybe you should take your own advice and quit telling people what to do, before you ask me to quit defending someone.

 

 

 

Just ignore him, he doesn't listen and it's not worth the time. Trust me.

 

 

 

Isn't you posting here not ignoring me? Oh right. I forgot that you just said that to make yourself look like a "big man" who can "ignore me." Even though you aren't ignoring me. Grow up.

[insane]

Since this discussion has turned towards a Christianity debate, I think we can just use the existing thread on religion.

 

 

 

If I see any flaming on that thread, it's getting locked.