Do YOU believe in God?

[Hannibal]

I'm going to quote Dan Brown on this. Wait, don't run away. Listen what he said in some meeting for book authors:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've been accused, amongst other things, of being anti-christian. I was raised Christian. I sang in the choir, I went to sunday school, I spent summers at Church camp. To this day, I try to live my life following the basic tenants of the teachings of Christ.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We should note, however, that if you ask three people what it means to be a Christian, you'll get three different answers. Some feel it is sufficient simply to be baptised into a Christian church. Others feel you must accept the bible as immutable historical fact. Still others require a belief that all those who don't accept Christ as their personal saviour are doomed to hell.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Faith is a continuum. We all fall on that line, wherever we may fall. And, by attempting to classify, and rigidly classify, ethereal concepts like faith, we end up debating the semantics to the point where we entirely miss the obvious. Which is that we are all trying to decipher life's big mysteries. Where did we come from? What happens when we die? Where are we going? What does all of this mean? And each of us must follow our own path to enlightenment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm guessing that most of us in this room tonight are probably Christian. However, there is nothing in our DNA that determined that. We were not born into the world, certain that Christianity was correct. We were born into a culture. We worship the Gods of our fathers. I humbly submit that if all of us in this room were born in Tibet, probably a lot of us would be buddhists, okay? I think the chances [for that] are pretty good, and I also think that we'd hold on to that buddhist philosophy with all the passion with which some of us might hold on to our Christian ideals. Again, we worship the Gods of our fathers. It is truly that simple.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The world is a big place. And now, more than ever, there is enormous danger in believing that we are infallible. That our version of the truth is absolute. That everyone who does not think like we do is wrong, and therefor an enemy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really wish I had the luxury of absolute unquestioning faith. I do not, and I'm still searching. I wrote this novel as part of my own spiritual quest. I never imagined a novel could become so controversial. I'm aware there are those out there ... goes on to explain about people who have compiled long lists of what he did wrong in his novels, and how they, while they're sometimes right about his inadequacies, his shortcomings, etc., are missing the entire point of the novel

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Transcript by me, audio available on Dan Brown's website. (click the "Live Audio" link, this piece is at about 17 minutes into the talk).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, I think that's pretty much what I said before. And I also think I'll just stop posting to the topic if people don't stop being absolutists about what they think is 'right', or how people who believe in anything are 'dumb', or how people who don't accept any God are going to go to hell/whatever-you-want-to-call-that-place.

[DaN]

 

 

 

However, an atheist cannot ever be a good person if his beliefs are true. Without an eternal, external standard (God) that determines true good and evil, no person can be truly good. There is no real morality, only made-up, subjective rules. In a materialist worldview, who's to say that feeding the homeless is any better than slaughtering and eating them? Both are simply forms of matter and energy moving around; there's no real difference between good and evil.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What makes you think Christians are better than atheists?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the arrogance that only comes with religion thinking your better than someone else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you see me claiming to be better than all christians?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is no god I help people on my own accord not because some rolemodel wants me to.

[Nadril]

Okay, to lighten the mood, I want someone to answer this question:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If there was a god, and Lucifer, and Heaven and Hell, WHY would you be PUNISHED for not believing in god? Wouldn't you go to hell, and become friends with the devil or something? Aren't they mortal enemies?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Arriving soul: Aww Sh*t I'm in hell

 

 

 

Satan: You don't believe in god?

 

 

 

Arriving soul: Nah, looks like a lifetime of hellfire and damnation for me. . .

 

 

 

Satan: Nah I hate god too! Up top!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Loud Slap*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now they are best friends

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The end.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'd have to say, that made me laugh. Seem's like it'd work out well too :lol: .

[dark_ice]

^^^ Actually I believe Satan was one of God's most respected and noble angels, but then did something that angered God, so God kicked him out. Don't quote me on this though :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And yes I do believe in God and try to study my bible when possible but I still have a lot to learn! :D

[rocketman089]

^^^ Actually I believe Satan was one of God's most respected and noble angles, but then did something that angered God, so God kicked him out. Don't quote me on this though :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure, something about satan trying to overtake the thrown. I'd have to watch Dogma again.

[Guest GhostRanger]

 

^^^ Actually I believe Satan was one of God's most respected and noble angles, but then did something that angered God, so God kicked him out. Don't quote me on this though :lol:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure, something about satan trying to overtake the thrown. I'd have to watch Dogma again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Haha...way to use a satirical movie as a Biblical reference...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To answer:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The idea is that to be in Heaven (with God) you have to be without sin. Satan (Lucifer) was not satisfied with not being as powerful as God, he sinned, and so he was no longer allowed to be in Heaven. He was an arch-angel meaning that he was fairly high on on the "chain of being" but angels, like humans, can sin.

[insane]

 

 

 

 

However, an atheist cannot ever be a good person if his beliefs are true. Without an eternal, external standard (God) that determines true good and evil, no person can be truly good. There is no real morality, only made-up, subjective rules. In a materialist worldview, who's to say that feeding the homeless is any better than slaughtering and eating them? Both are simply forms of matter and energy moving around; there's no real difference between good and evil.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What makes you think Christians are better than atheists?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the arrogance that only comes with religion thinking your better than someone else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you see me claiming to be better than all christians?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is no god I help people on my own accord not because some rolemodel wants me to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everything after the part you bolded explains the part you bolded. Your post seems to ignore that.

[Mercifull]

However, an atheist cannot ever be a good person if his beliefs are true. Without an eternal, external standard (God) that determines true good and evil, no person can be truly good.

 

 

 

I SERIOUSLY suggest that you read the book that i posted. I am very offended by your comment above.

[Hannibal]

I think something that was left out here was that nobody would be a good person (good in the absolute sense of the word), because there would be no absolute morality. That's the point he's trying to make, anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, I disagree. Society has rules, and although not absolute, they can make people 'good' persons in their society. Whether any kind of supernatural thing (God if you wish) thinks that is good is something which we'll never know while we're still alive. Even if you're a theist, there is no way to know God's idea of what 'good' is, there are only interpretations of vague texts that somehow seem to have originated from the divine (to put it sceptically). So even if the theist is right, there is no way to judge if someone is 'truly good' anyway. Which means the entire point is moot anyway. All we have now is (fallible) human metrics of what good and evil consist of - those metrics are both bound to culture and to persons as individuals. This is probably one of the reasons why the bible does say:

 

 

 

Do not judge, lest you be judged

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So please, don't make inflammatory remarks about how atheists can never be a truly good person if they're right. Nobody can, in that case, but nobody can tell the difference between a 'truly' good person and the next guy if they're wrong either. So again, the point is moot. Atheists can be good people in our human-judged value system too, and religion has squat all to do with that.

[Anesthesia]

However, an atheist cannot ever be a good person if his beliefs are true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

THIS is the reason I see theists (speficially christians) as arrogant. What an idiotic and offensive thing to say.

[insane]

 

However, an atheist cannot ever be a good person if his beliefs are true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

THIS is the reason I see theists (speficially christians) as arrogant. What an idiotic and offensive thing to say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then how about you quote the rest of his post and show us how his reasoning is wrong? Oh wait, I'll do it. But I can't show his reasoning as wrong, because it is right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How about we start using logic in our posts? You're just quoting the conclusion of a very logical thought process and calling the conclusion stupid because you evidently are unable to read the process he went through to acquire the conclusion.

 

 

 

Here, let me quote his ENTIRE post for you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, an atheist cannot ever be a good person if his beliefs are true. Without an eternal, external standard (God) that determines true good and evil, no person can be truly good. There is no real morality, only made-up, subjective rules. In a materialist worldview, who's to say that feeding the homeless is any better than slaughtering and eating them? Both are simply forms of matter and energy moving around; there's no real difference between good and evil.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Conclusion: It is inconsistant for an atheist to claim to be a good person.

[Mercifull]

He's still wrong. You are both going by the notion that only god can decide what is good and evil therefor atheists cannot define themselves as such. when in reality good/bad is socially constructed.

 

 

 

I STRONGLY urge you even more so than in any other posts at all to read the book i linked to before making such outragous claims again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would also like to mention a couple of other books. The Origins of Virtue by Matt Ridley and The Moral Animal by Robert Wright. Both go into great detail on the issue of morality outside of religion. The notion of good and bad goes far beyond the time when religion laid claim to it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"You are an intelligent human being. Your life is valuable for its own sake. You are not second-class in the universe, deriving meaning and purpose from some other mind. You are not inherently evilÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Ã

[Gamerr]

I think many people believe in god because they are just afraid for what comes after the death. I'm not afraid of it, because i know we all gonna die, and nothing will change it. Also, living forever would be boaring i think, after a while (read: about 200 years) you would want to die because you've seen everything.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do I believe in God? Yes. It's quite normal i do, because i'm a catholic (sorry if this isn't proper spelled :oops: ). I don't believe in a 'heaven', but i do believe there's a power that we can't control and that's controlled by something inexplicable.

[d-von]

i dont believe in a god since i am really hurt by some die hard cristians who tried to tell me about god and stuff.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

it was a talk about loving stuff but also about there god who was cruel and wanted to kill people who didnt followed him.

 

 

 

i dont want to believe in someone who is that cruel, to kill his own creations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

after that they said i was a child of satan and got a lot of insults even from my mom.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

if there is a god why did he let his people insult me?

[insane]

He's still wrong. You are both going by the notion that only god can decide what is good and evil therefor atheists cannot define themselves as such. when in reality good/bad is socially constructed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He was going on the premise that good and evil are absolute ;) if God doesn't exist, then absolute good and evil do not exist. What you call good, what the author of your book calls good, is only reduced to your emotions towards certain actions if God doesn't exist. That was his point.

[Fiery_Gyr]

 

 

However, an atheist cannot ever be a good person if his beliefs are true.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

THIS is the reason I see theists (speficially christians) as arrogant. What an idiotic and offensive thing to say.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then how about you quote the rest of his post and show us how his reasoning is wrong? Oh wait, I'll do it. But I can't show his reasoning as wrong, because it is right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How about we start using logic in our posts? You're just quoting the conclusion of a very logical thought process and calling the conclusion stupid because you evidently are unable to read the process he went through to acquire the conclusion.

 

 

 

Here, let me quote his ENTIRE post for you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, an atheist cannot ever be a good person if his beliefs are true. Without an eternal, external standard (God) that determines true good and evil, no person can be truly good. There is no real morality, only made-up, subjective rules. In a materialist worldview, who's to say that feeding the homeless is any better than slaughtering and eating them? Both are simply forms of matter and energy moving around; there's no real difference between good and evil.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Conclusion: It is inconsistant for an atheist to claim to be a good person.

 

 

 

I just can't believe you christians believe you are all good people. Where do you get the nerves to say such a thing? :?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You claim that you are good because of your religion and that atheists can't be good because they can't have a moral? That's just so sick. If somebody had a moral it WILL be an atheist, because they have their OWN and PERSONAL moral. We don't wanna go to heaven of hell or wherever you wanna send us to, we wanna live with our own moral and ideas, so we can be happy in life and have a feeling that we reached something before we die!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What do you think about atheists then? That we are all killers? That we steal? That we can't be good?

 

 

 

Did you know that christians were SCARED of the pagans and that's why they burned them at the stakes!? Everyone fears the unknown, because it can't be trusted or it inflicts damage to your (christian) moral. It's just so sick, killing people because they were different and had their own ideas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So: WHO IS A BAD PERSON HERE!?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, I am a pagan, I don't believe in god and the bible is a fairy tale in my eyes, but does THAT make me a killer or a "not good/bad" person? NO!

 

 

 

On the other hand, I know that most christians are proud of their religion and their "good" (read: bad) deeds.

 

 

 

Can't you have your own moral? Can't you live without the knowledge that somebody's watching over you? Are you so weak? Or are you a christian because your parents are? Just think about that...

[Evilperson]

Okay, I really don't want this topic to be locked, so keep the flaming to a minimum please!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But really, I doubt that Chrisitans "defined" good and evil. I think society set those and they were pre-Jesus (which, as far as I know, was the start of Chrisitanity).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So how can Christians go around saying they defined Good and Evil and only Christians are good, when they probably didn't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thus leading to my next point: Insane, Good and Evil CAN exist without god because the "Standards'' of society were created before Christianity and the idea of "God.''

[d-von]

i agree with u fiery, i used not to care if someone was a believer or not but i got insulted by them, i even had conversations wich cristians who really thought that murdering in the name of god was correct :?

 

 

 

or another old man who allways was trying to touch me and stuff while telling his story's about jesus.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

a lot of people are getting there oppinion from the bible and when someone is trying to debate with them they think the bible is correct, after a lot of conversations i noticed the bible and the world cant be compared to eachother. i dont believe in god or the devil but my mom keep shouting at me i am a child of satan i am NOT! but she keeps referring to parts from the bible, if your oppinion is based on the bible please read it and try to apply the thoughts in real life.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i read a lot of story's about cristians killing the non believers and jewish people (just search it on the net and ull read some story's about it) wich was the main reason for me not to believe.

[Anesthesia]

Then how about you quote the rest of his post and show us how his reasoning is wrong? Oh wait, I'll do it. But I can't show his reasoning as wrong, because it is right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Only to a christian.

[insane]

 

Then how about you quote the rest of his post and show us how his reasoning is wrong? Oh wait, I'll do it. But I can't show his reasoning as wrong, because it is right.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Only to a christian.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yet again, you fail to disprove his reasoning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I just can't believe you christians believe you are all good people. Where do you get the nerves to say such a thing?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When did we say that? Truth is, we didn't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You claim that you are good because of your religion

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Actually we didn't claim that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

and that atheists can't be good because they can't have a moral?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If atheism is true - read Astra's post again. If atheism is true, then Christians can't be good either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If somebody had a moral it WILL be an atheist, because they have their OWN and PERSONAL moral. We don't wanna go to heaven of hell or wherever you wanna send us to, we wanna live with our own moral and ideas, so we can be happy in life and have a feeling that we reached something before we die!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay, let's say I'm an atheist. Let's say my own morals and ideas tell me that happiness is me murdering ten children every day. Hooray for personal, subjective morals! Nobody can tell me I'm wrong, because there is no standard of good or evil. With God though, there IS a standard of good and evil, and people that believe it is okay to murder children CAN be punished.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What do you think about atheists then? That we are all killers? That we steal? That we can't be good?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I never said that. Stop putting words into my mouth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did you know that christians were SCARED of the pagans and that's why they burned them at the stakes!?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Even if you could prove this, it's really quite irrelevent.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's just so sick, killing people because they were different and had their own ideas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On the other hand, I know that most christians are proud of their religion and their "good" (read: bad) deeds.

 

 

 

Pride is discouraged by Christianity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can't you live without the knowledge that somebody's watching over you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Huh? I believe here you are assuming God doesn't exist, which would be circular reasoning.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Are you so weak? Or are you a christian because your parents are? Just think about that...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was originally Christian because my parents were, but have since looked at it myself, from logic and reason and decided that it is the most reasonable belief.

[d-von]

 

 

 

Okay, let's say I'm an atheist. Let's say my own morals and ideas tell me that happiness is me murdering ten children every day. Hooray for personal, subjective morals! Nobody can tell me I'm wrong, because there is no standard of good or evil. With God though, there IS a standard of good and evil, and people that believe it is okay to murder children CAN be punished.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

yeah there is another standart called the law ;)

[Anesthesia]

With God though, there IS a standard of good and evil, and people that believe it is okay to murder children CAN be punished.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How did god dictate these standards?

[Fiery_Gyr]

Insane, there's just no talking to you. You only see the bible and not the world around you. Couldn't you just try to be a bit less naive?

 

 

 

Shame that ppl like you exist, but if you are happy that way, so be it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just close this topic now, because it's going from nothing to nowhere. :wink:

[Mercifull]

edit: ya know just scrap that. I cant be bothered arguing with such naive people

[insane]

 

 

 

 

Okay, let's say I'm an atheist. Let's say my own morals and ideas tell me that happiness is me murdering ten children every day. Hooray for personal, subjective morals! Nobody can tell me I'm wrong, because there is no standard of good or evil. With God though, there IS a standard of good and evil, and people that believe it is okay to murder children CAN be punished.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

yeah there is another standart called the law ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, that is true. But the law just becomes whatever popular opinion is. Right now, 99.99999% of people believe murdering children is wrong. But what if it was the other way around? The law would be different, I believe.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How did god dictate these standards?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's open to alot of interpretation, and that's where problems come in. It is my personal belief that God's character IS the standard - but I also believe the government's job is NOT to enforce that, as not everyone believes in it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Insane, there's just no talking to you. You only see the bible and not the world around you. Couldn't you just try to be a bit less naive?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's funny, because i haven't quoted one Bible verse. All I've used is logic. And all of a sudden all I see is the Bible?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you putting words into my mouth and misquoting what me and Astra is saying makes us naive, then so be it. But you're the one not able to form a decent argument in favour of yourself. I think that is the reason there's "no talking to me".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shame that ppl like you exist

 

 

 

This is where you've just proved yourself wrong yet again. You with your subjective morals wish that I didn't exist. That's not very loving, or kind, or positive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

if you are happy that way, so be it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am very happy :) I've learned that the point of life is to love others - I haven't judged anyone from their beliefs, I've just been defending myself this entire time. If I've come across strongly I apologize, but when people get on my case for trying to live a decent life by obeying my Lord and saviour, it bugs me. By your standards, I am a good person. Why criticize that?