Do YOU believe in God?

[Barihawk]

I never said anywhere that at any point nothing existed. There was already something in place to start the Universe, and I believe that was God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for getting confused, I have seen lots of notions that theorums are laws nowadays. I love science, its amazing how we are so smart nowadays that we can claim something as fact when it has not been proven in a scientific expirement. In other words, If I wanted proof of evolution, it would be preferred that it came from a controlled expiriment, not based on speculation. That is why I keep saying that there is no scientific proof of evolution...there have been no expiriments, just radical speculation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course, one could say the same about God. It all boils down into your personal faith.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And after rereading this topic, Ive noticed that we are all thread-hijacking. The original poster only asked us if we believed in God or not...so in that terms, we are guilty of starting a war when a simple yes or no answer could have sufficed. Being that stated, I am removing myself from this topic unless someone decides to insult me or something.

[HugATree]

 

 

 

As for getting confused, I have seen lots of notions that theorums are laws nowadays. I love science, its amazing how we are so smart nowadays that we can claim something as fact when it has not been proven in a scientific expirement. In other words, If I wanted proof of evolution, it would be preferred that it came from a controlled expiriment, not based on speculation. That is why I keep saying that there is no scientific proof of evolution...there have been no expiriments, just radical speculation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I find it odd someone who "loves" science knows so little about it, even to the point of spreading false information.

 

 

 

If you wanted scientific evidence for evolution you'd look at the tests, experiments, observations; instead you're closing your eyes and covering your ears and saying "no it doesn't".

 

 

 

It would probably be easier if you looked up the meaning of a scientific theory(or science in general), and save the "speculation" argument for those ignorant enough to buy it.

[Collective]

I do not believe in God. What I do believe is that religion is the most harmful thing that man has ever invented, more destructive than the nuclear weapon ever could be.

 

 

 

Uh, right. Because religion kills tens of thousands of people in mere seconds? Quit the rethorics please.

 

 

 

No, but it is more likely to kill more people in the end.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nuclear weapons aren't dangerous until they're launched. To be launched someone needs a damn good reason to launch them. In this day and age I doubt that territorial disputes and political arguments aren't going to cut it as an excuse to use nukes. Religion, on the other hand is a fantastic excuse to cause a bloodbath.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To be clear, if Iran built and launched a nuclear missile at Israel, I wouldn't blame the nuke, I'd blame religion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All forms of religion? Somehow I feel like you have little clue of what you're talking about. Buddhist monks, are they infected with some kind of virus? Are they arrogant? Are they violent? Are they ignorant? Are they racist, homophobic or sexist?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I never said all religious people were any of the things you just said.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Face it, if we didn't have religion, that would in no case mean all these problems would suddenly drop off the face of the earth.

 

 

 

I face that (infact I never denied it). Having said that, though, I do believe that far less people would be homophobic if they weren't taught to be from birth and didn't have "the word of God" to run to every time they were challenged on it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're confusing religion with certain people who say they are religious.

 

 

 

No I'm not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe that at very least religions promote a "them and us" mentality. While this mentality is intrinsic to human nature, I think religion makes it considerably worse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have no interest in prodding around a Bible to prove that Christianity is homophobic, or the Qur'an to prove that Islam is a hateful religion. Those aren't my arguments. My argument is that religion as a concept causes the problems, whether this be through correct intepretation of texts or incorrect interpretion of texts is inconsequential.

[Hannibal]

Forgive me, just because I come from a different train of Christianity than you does not mean I have to agree with you.

 

 

 

Which was the point. The way you put it, it looked as if all Christians would agree with you, which is not the case.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Theists are not. I don't know how many times I've been tried to be persuaded to join a group or religion. You don't see Aetheists walking up to doors bothering people (well I haven't anyways). It seems to me that Theists are the one always forcing their beliefs upon others.

 

 

 

That's true, to an extent. Not all theists do this, though. Did a buddhist monk ever talk to you trying to get you to become a buddhist? :P

 

 

 

(though I must confess I'm not sure if you can say Buddhists believe in a "God" kind of thing, they are religious anyway)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And technically, the people who try to get you to join Amnesty, the Book Society or whatever else are also just doing marketing. The difference is usually that the religious people don't get paid for it (in money, anyway), and are concerned about you, instead of about what they're trying to get you to join.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyhow, personally, I think everyone should be able to decide for themselves. Forcing your beliefs on anyone won't help them. Trying to get them to accept them is not much better, in my eyes.

[Hannibal]

 

All forms of religion? Somehow I feel like you have little clue of what you're talking about. Buddhist monks, are they infected with some kind of virus? Are they arrogant? Are they violent? Are they ignorant? Are they racist, homophobic or sexist?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I never said all religious people were any of the things you just said.

 

 

 

You said religion as a thing caused this, thus, people affected by religion should have those traits, by your own comments a few pages back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do believe that far less people would be homophobic if they weren't taught to be from birth and didn't have "the word of God" to run to every time they were challenged on it.

 

 

 

I wish it wasn't like that, but you're probably right. Whether that is the fault of religion, or of the interpretation of it is another matter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're confusing religion with certain people who say they are religious.

 

 

 

No I'm not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe that at very least religions promote a "them and us" mentality. While this mentality is intrinsic to human nature, I think religion makes it considerably worse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have no interest in prodding around a Bible to prove that Christianity is homophobic, or the Qur'an to prove that Islam is a hateful religion. Those aren't my arguments. My argument is that religion as a concept causes the problems, whether this be through correct intepretation of texts or incorrect interpretion of texts is inconsequential.

 

 

 

Hrm. I kind of see your point, however, I don't understand why the human interpretation of it is irrelevant. For example, wars have been justified by the constitution of countries. Let's assume that at least a few of those wars were not 'right' (ethically speaking). Does that say anything about the constitutions they were justified by?

[Hannibal]

And after rereading this topic, Ive noticed that we are all thread-hijacking. The original poster only asked us if we believed in God or not...so in that terms, we are guilty of starting a war when a simple yes or no answer could have sufficed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In that case the topic served no purpose anyway. At least now it has some purpose, no matter how many times we've seen it before.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for everyone hating the thread itself: if you are so annoyed by it, then don't post on it? In any community, there'll eventually be new members who want to know the opinions of existing ones on certain topics, and who want to discuss. It is inevitable that in this process, certain topics will be discussed again and again at regular intervals. I don't see why that is a problem.

[s4nder]

NO!

[Evilperson]

I don't see what people see in religion. The way I see it is that it is simply someone else telling you how to live you life. It is creating more laws and restrictions in your life. It stifles pleasures, activities, ways of life and other individualistic things that make everyone unique.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What I mean by this is:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Christianity (Most forms, too many to seperate):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You Can't get an abortion. Now that is just stupid. It is like saying you can't masturbate because your killing millions of unborn children.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can't be homosexaul because it isn't the "way" god wanted it. Yes, lets deny someone their Persuit of Happiness because we just don't want to let them be married to someone of the same sex.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Those are just 2 examples of why I personally don't believe in Religion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I find religion to be so empty and meaningless.

[insane]

Yes, lets deny someone their Persuit of Happiness

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My pursuit of happiness is murdering 10 children every day. If religion denies this to me, then religion is horrible!!! Hooray for using an extreme example to show someone how faulty their logic is...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How about all those faked religious relics? How many more of those have there been then faked fossils? This has nothing to do with disproving evolution

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Two wrongs don't make a right. It has a little to do with disproving evolution - it just makes me ask why people need to fake fossils if the evidence is so abundant?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The theory doesnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t state there is evidence; it doesnÃÆââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ã¢ââ¬Å¾Ã¢t state there are a million fossils in the ground for which every creature has a fossil.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Darwin himself said that the fossil record would need huge improvements for evolution to be proven - unless Darwin was wrong, which wouldn't invalidate evolution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You only assume there is no premise, where is the proof that there is no premise

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No, I assume that the premise is nothing. I'm not saying there is no premise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also - you once said that we cannot get from the supernatural to the natural, and I disagree with that. I agree that we can't go from natural to supernatural, since that violates cause/effect - but God, who is above and superior to matter, can definitely create matter. That's why I believe God could have used evolution to create us.

[Gingi]

Wow, i only posted this topic yesterday night, and look at all the replies!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway, when i was a kid, i didnt believe in God as such. I kind of made my own up which were better (no offence). The rules my gods made, made sense like.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thou Shall Not Kill - Christians have fought in numerous wars!

 

 

 

Thou Shalt Not Have No Other Gods Before Me - But other religions worship other gods.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If God made the world, why did he make War and other religions (no offence)

[Collective]

You said religion as a thing caused this, thus, people affected by religion should have those traits

 

 

 

..and many of them do. Not all do, but I never said "all" (infact I won't even say that 'most' do, see below).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To clarify: driving causes accidents, but it doesn't follow that all people who drive will have an accident. Similarly it is possible for people to be religious and not have any of the traits I listed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I won't say 'most' religious people hold these traits because I have no evidence to prove it (or disprove it, for that matter). I'm not a fan of religious polls, since they tend to be biased and misleading.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Obviously I still maintain the view that there would be fewer occurrences of these traits if there were fewer religious people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hrm. I kind of see your point, however, I don't understand why the human interpretation of it is irrelevant. For example, wars have been justified by the constitution of countries. Let's assume that at least a few of those wars were not 'right' (ethically speaking). Does that say anything about the constitutions they were justified by?

 

 

 

Short answer is 'no', long answer is 'maybe'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do not think that the use of a religion to justify a 'morally wrong' act necessarily reflects on that religion. Likewise I don't think that the use of a country's constitution to justify such an act necessarily reflects on that constitution. I do see both (mis)interpretations has having a common cause; religion and nationalism can both instill the "them and us" mentality I mentioned.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having said that, there are religious texts that I would consider morally objectionable*.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I did not mean that the interpretation is irrelevant, what is irrelevant is whether or not the interpretation is a 'correct' one. To me, why people are interpreting things in this way and the results of these interpretations are far more concerning than whether they are valid or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* I have no intention of posting them, you can guess the sort of thing I'm referring to and ultimately such conversations ultimately turn into an arguement about context and semantics (a conversation which I'm not interested in starting)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edits: Decided I'd been unclear - rewrote since noone had replied.

[Barihawk]

 

 

 

 

And as for God allowing us to be tempted...its our own fault. Before Adam and Eve ate the fruit of knowledge...we were sheep. We had no temptation and God watched over us and loved us. But when we ate the fruit, we were given the "gift" of free will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can you explain why its our fault?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We disobeyed God? Its right there in Genesis Chapter 2. It was the Original Sin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I find it odd someone who "loves" science knows so little about it, even to the point of spreading false information.

 

 

 

If you wanted scientific evidence for evolution you'd look at the tests, experiments, observations; instead you're closing your eyes and covering your ears and saying "no it doesn't".

 

 

 

It would probably be easier if you looked up the meaning of a scientific theory(or science in general), and save the "speculation" argument for those ignorant enough to buy it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I love science in the fields of astronomy, physics, and geography. Those I can look at and immediately prove through expiriments. Now, let me get your post straight...you say that "tests, expiriments, observations" have proven evolution? Can you PLEASE post a link to a controlled test where man has visibly watched evolution happen before his eyes? I am pretty sure there is nothing in support of evolution EXCEPT for observation. And observation without a scientific method is pretty much speculation.

[Mercifull]

 

 

 

 

 

And as for God allowing us to be tempted...its our own fault. Before Adam and Eve ate the fruit of knowledge...we were sheep. We had no temptation and God watched over us and loved us. But when we ate the fruit, we were given the "gift" of free will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can you explain why its our fault?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We disobeyed God? Its right there in Genesis Chapter 2. It was the Original Sin.

But all knowing, all powerful god surely would have known that "we" were going to sin?

[HugATree]

 

 

 

Two wrongs don't make a right. It has a little to do with disproving evolution - it just makes me ask why people need to fake fossils if the evidence is so abundant?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Faked fossils exist on both sides of the argument; not everything turns into a fossil though, in alot of conditions the organism would simply decay away.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Darwin himself said that the fossil record would need huge improvements for evolution to be proven - unless Darwin was wrong, which wouldn't invalidate evolution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Darwin also lived some 100 years ago, before the common knowledge of genetics/DNA.

[Barihawk]

Its called free will. All-knowing refers that he can tell the ramifications that all decisions we make will have. Which choice we make is up to ourselves. Of course, I do not believe in pre-Destination, which is what you are getting at.

[HugATree]

 

 

 

 

 

And as for God allowing us to be tempted...its our own fault. Before Adam and Eve ate the fruit of knowledge...we were sheep. We had no temptation and God watched over us and loved us. But when we ate the fruit, we were given the "gift" of free will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can you explain why its our fault?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We disobeyed God? Its right there in Genesis Chapter 2. It was the Original Sin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When did I do this? I don't ever remember that happening.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, let me get your post straight...you say that "tests, expiriments, observations" have proven evolution? Can you PLEASE post a link to a controlled test where man has visibly watched evolution happen before his eyes?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please do a simple look up on genetics, and mutations. Numerous links have been posted on this board in the past.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am pretty sure there is nothing in support of evolution EXCEPT for observation. And observation without a scientific method is pretty much speculation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Really? How did it become a scientific theory if its just speculation?

[Guest GhostRanger]

 

 

 

 

 

 

And as for God allowing us to be tempted...its our own fault. Before Adam and Eve ate the fruit of knowledge...we were sheep. We had no temptation and God watched over us and loved us. But when we ate the fruit, we were given the "gift" of free will.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Can you explain why its our fault?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

We disobeyed God? Its right there in Genesis Chapter 2. It was the Original Sin.

But all knowing, all powerful god surely would have known that "we" were going to sin?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right - but that's part of your definition of true justice. God made us and gave us the ability to be with Him, knowing full well some of us would choose not to follow that path. Some of us, though, will, and so God has reason to mkae us. He could make all of us perfect and none of us would sin, but would that be true justice? It doesn't allow us to have free will.

[Barihawk]

 

 

 

When did I do this? I don't ever remember that happening.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, well that comment was directed to the Judeo/Christian who asked the question, and not to a non-believer who would just make a useless comment about it. I guess it has no meaning if you are not a Creationist, is it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And stop being lazy. The creationists are citing examples, you should at least search and find an argument before making yourself seem infallible. You say there are multiple proofs found on this forum? FIND THEM. Then post them here.

[Mementh]

ok.. the issue is.. that i see it we have religious dogma vs scientific fact....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

fact we can measure a element called carbon 14 which exists in all life on earth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

fact fossils of a preman have been found which predate 6k years (bible time that earth has been around)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

this proves that the bible while i belive inspired by god was written by man..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

had GOD actually written the bible he would have put things in to last thoughout the ages to spell things out in clear text so that in todays "modern" society and the hebrews "modern" society we would both understand things properly

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but it was written by man... influanced by man...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why should it be a sin to kill unborn babies that are NOT yet sentient (my belife is untill the child brain forms it can't be considered sentient) but the reason is? because it takes away from the future religous payers/warriors.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why whould man and man not lay together.. because he spills his seed with another man.. the religious leaders see this and know that he should mate with a woman... why? to produce another future child/warrior for the religous

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why do we have these problems.. religion by iteself would i think cause no problems.. but because one man/woman at a time say they are imbued with gods word.. that they speak for god and get followers.. these followers do whatever this person says.. this causes zealots... they will follwo this person without thinking... they will fight and kill and murder because they will get something in the end they think...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In my personal opinion.. if you do the right thing always as best as you can... if your in a war to protect your homeland you kill.. you are protected ... if you kill your buddy for stealing your gf you are in trouble...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but int he end you may have hardships.. most here on earth.. there may be some penelties up there... but in the end as long as you did the best you could in the cecomstanses then you have learned... and your safe..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

it is my opinion that unless you have turned completely away from god and gods morals that are imbued in society/life that you are saved...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Remember folks it will all end one day.. by the apocolapes? or the new big bang... so in the end all you can say is that you exist.. no one can change that

[HugATree]

And stop being lazy. The creationists are citing examples, you should at least search and find an argument before making yourself seem infallible. You say there are multiple proofs found on this forum? FIND THEM. Then post them here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Right, I'm lazy because someone wants to pretend genetics are all myth.

 

 

 

The very fact all life on earth is genetically related, supporting the claim all life shares a common ancestor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Beneficial mutation in humans Apo-AIM http://talkorigins.org/faqs/information/apolipoprotein.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Legged whales and seacows http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates_ex3

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Complete fossil record of horse evolution http://talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/horse_evol.html

[HugATree]

 

 

 

Yeah, well that comment was directed to the Judeo/Christian who asked the question, and not to a non-believer who would just make a useless comment about it. I guess it has no meaning if you are not a Creationist, is it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I asked the question as you said its all our fault, even if I wasn't present at the event.

[Barihawk]

The very fact all life on earth is genetically related, supporting the claim all life shares a common ancestor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, in response to that: *cough*Adam*cough*

 

 

 

Of course, thats my belief opposed to yours.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And to segway:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I asked the question as you said its all our fault, even if I wasn't present at the event.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The whole concept of Original Sin states that we all inherited the first sin from Adam. Christ came to Earth to die for our sins and erase this Original Sin. All who believe him are cleansed of Adam's Sin *although capable of committing thier own*.

[rocketman089]

The whole concept of Original Sin states that we all inherited the first sin from Adam. Christ came to Earth to die for our sins and erase this Original Sin. All who believe him are cleansed of Adam's Sin *although capable of committing thier own*.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Erm, it was the woman who sinned :wink:

[Collective]

 

The very fact all life on earth is genetically related, supporting the claim all life shares a common ancestor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, in response to that: *cough*Adam*cough*

 

 

 

You're the first Christian I've ever heard of who believed Adam was related to modern animals. How exactly did he spread his genes to my pet cat? I dread to think.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're also the first Christian I've heard of to claim mankind has found life on Mars that disproves evolution and then claim he loves "science in the fields of astronomy, physics, and geography".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To whoever cares: I edited my previous post, because it was poor, and noone had replied to it anyway

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: "say claim" -> "claim"

[Barihawk]

 

The whole concept of Original Sin states that we all inherited the first sin from Adam. Christ came to Earth to die for our sins and erase this Original Sin. All who believe him are cleansed of Adam's Sin *although capable of committing thier own*.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Erm, it was the woman who sinned :wink:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It was Adam's fault for listening to her :P.