Affirmative Action

[chris1216]

Despite efforts from Michigan State University and the University of Michigan, Proposal 2, an act to functionally end affirmative action in Michigan, is sailing through all barriers towards implementation and enforcement.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It seems as though oppression is taking a much more subtle route than the segregation of the 50's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, feel free to share a thought or two about the whole deal.

[darkmage099]

I swear Viktor made a thread about this. 8 pages long actually. I, personally, am against it.

[Viktorkrum77]

I swear Viktor made a thread about this. 8 pages long actually. I, personally, am against it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yea, I did. If I wasn't lazy, I'd search and bump it.

[chris1216]

You're welcome to defend your position.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think it would be interesting if everyone posted their racial demographic when responding to this thread, it will certainly be interesting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personally, I fall under Asian/Pacific Islander.

[darkmage099]

You're welcome to defend your position.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think it would be interesting if everyone posted their racial demographic when responding to this thread, it will certainly be interesting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personally, I fall under Asian/Pacific Islander.

 

 

 

Same. I am Indian.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Their intentions are good (trying to stop racism), but they are using racism. How ironic! They discriminate people to make room for others who are being discriminated in other ways. It's ridiculous really. We should be judged as humans and not the colour of our skin.

[chris1216]

I won't lie, I'm expecting the demographic of those opposing affirmative action to be majority white.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your argument is true that it is in fact reverse racism. However,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) White privilege is the status quo

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2) Affirmative action, while not in the slightest a good long term solution, is all we've got and it has its benefits

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3) Rejecting a solution because it's not perfect gets us nowhere

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4) There literally is NO OTHER short or long-term solution to the racist hierarchy we have in place now.

[darkmage099]

I won't lie, I'm expecting the demographic of those opposing affirmative action to be majority white.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your argument is true that it is in fact reverse racism. However,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) White privilege is the status quo ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2) Affirmative action, while not in the slightest a good long term solution, is all we've got and it has its benefits I guess it isn't good enough. It has quite the opposite of benefits. IMO, it causes a specific group harm in compensation to another group. Doesn't solve the problem, does it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3) Rejecting a solution because it's not perfect gets us nowhere I am sure we can do better

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4) There literally is NO OTHER short or long-term solution to the racist hierarchy we have in place now. never say never

[chris1216]

I am saying never because there is no solution and you can't tell me one. Affirmative action isn't a solution, and was never meant to be- it was designed to help level the playing field, and it's succeeding at doing so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your argument that affirmative action harms one group while benefitting another is, translated literally, saying that affirmative action hurts whites.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The problem with that argument is that it assumes that whites don't continue to benefit from the few hundred-odd years of racial oppression (they do, and I can give you examples if you really want).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Harming" whites is simply a laughable argument. You can consider from the day the first slave was delivered to North American soil the first day of "White Affirmative Action".

[rushrock]

Affirmative action = racism

[Faux]

Affirmative action = reverse racism

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...and no, I'm not white.

[darkmage099]

I am saying never because there is no solution and you can't tell me one. Affirmative action isn't a solution, and was never meant to be- it was designed to help level the playing field, and it's succeeding at doing so. which means it was meant to be a solution....(to the "playing field" problem)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your argument that affirmative action harms one group while benefitting another is, translated literally, saying that affirmative action hurts whites. It rewards or punishes individuals in the present for what their group is supposed to have done in the past. It is like this: They are trying to create a more diverse student body. At the same time, they are rejecting those who should rightfully have the spot because they are not a certain color. This is defined as racism. Do the ends really justify the means?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The problem with that argument is that it assumes that whites don't continue to benefit from the few hundred-odd years of racial oppression (they do, and I can give you examples if you really want). please do

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Harming" whites is simply a laughable argument. You can consider from the day the first slave was delivered to North American soil the first day of "White Affirmative Action".

[rushrock]

 

Affirmative action = reverse racism

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...and no, I'm not white.

 

 

 

Reverse racism = racism

[Faux]

Reverse racism = racism

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Uhh...? Yeah, I was just making it even clearer. Reverse discrimination is what's associated with affirmative action, rather than just plain 'racism'

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My original post from last month http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?p=4015523#4015523

[rushrock]

 

Reverse racism = racism

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Uhh...? Yeah, I was just making it even clearer. Reverse discrimination is what's associated with affirmative action, rather than just plain 'racism'

 

 

 

Meh, to me specifics don't matter. It's still racism, and it just moves us away from world peace.

[foolgool]

 

 

Affirmative action = reverse racism

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

...and no, I'm not white.

 

 

 

Reverse racism = racism

 

 

 

Actually, reverse racism = msicar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am white, by the way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Affirmative action does not only work by race, look at how women were affected in the past 25-50 years. First, guys were ahead, but thanks to affirmative action related to sex, many males are found to be lagging behind because they know that many teachers are told to/want to favor the females. Also, there have been many occasions on which a male and a female have competed for the same job or college with the same qualifications, with the female being accepted purely because she is female.

 

 

 

Affirmative action = bad

[Viktorkrum77]

Use the magical device called income.

[chris1216]

Your argument is the exact same as the only real argument that people give against affirmative action:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Affirmative action is wrong because we should live in a merit-based system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The omitted part of that argument (and the part people refuse to admit) is that you're saying we should be a merit based system because people that benefit from affirmative action are less competent than those who are excluded by affirmative action.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is the one distinction people fail to realize: You and everyone else that argues against affirmative action act as if it is an exclusionary system that raises one group above another.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You want examples of white privilege in today's society?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) Racial Profiling

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2) Two people walk into a store. One person is black. The other person is white. A security guard immediately begins following the black shopper while leaving the white patron free to browse

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3) Housing: Do you remember how real estate agents would refuse to move a black family into a neighborhood because it would "decrease land values?" That still happens.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4) Working (here's the ironic kicker): A white person can take a job at an affirmative-action workplace without suspicion that they got the job because of their race

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

White privilege is a direct result of oppression. Why exactly should that system be allowed to continue? If you're told that the position in life you have is based on a system that oppresses others, why exactly do you take it as a personal indictment of you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's an analogy: You have direct proof that your collection of gold jewelry was made from the fillings of Jews that were gassed in concentration camps. Would you continue wearing that jewelry knowing where it comes from?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If not, why does the same thing not apply to privilege?

[chris1216]

The gender argument (which is also interesting because most of you don't realize that the major beneficiaries of affirmative action are WHITE WOMEN) is flawed because regardless of what "negative effects" you perceive from affirmative action...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.....The costs of being male are far far far outweighed by the overwhelming benefits.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for the argument that you can use income, that's still painting affirmative action in a different light, seeing as how most households under the poverty line are of a different race than white.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Since you know that most beneficiaries of affirmative income action are minorities, what's the difference?

[darkmage099]

Your argument is the exact same as the only real argument that people give against affirmative action:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Affirmative action is wrong because we should live in a merit-based system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The omitted part of that argument (and the part people refuse to admit) is that you're saying we should be a merit based system because people that benefit from affirmative action are less competent than those who are excluded by affirmative action.

 

 

 

They are less competent. If they weren't, they would make it on their own without affirmative action.

 

 

 

This is the one distinction people fail to realize: You and everyone else that argues against affirmative action act as if it is an exclusionary system that raises one group above another. It does raise groups over others. It says: Because you are we will let you into our school to create a more diverse school; even though you aren't as smart as Mr. here. We have too many of those types.

 

 

 

You want examples of white privilege in today's society?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) Racial Profiling

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2) Two people walk into a store. One person is black. The other person is white. A security guard immediately begins following the black shopper while leaving the white patron free to browse Because blacks commit crime! Yes, it is racism, but it is not like everyone does this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3) Housing: Do you remember how real estate agents would refuse to move a black family into a neighborhood because it would "decrease land values?" That still happens. Right...However, it is not the majority that does this

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

4) Working (here's the ironic kicker): A white person can take a job at an affirmative-action workplace without suspicion that they got the job because of their race exactly how AA causes racism!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

White privilege is a direct result of oppression. Why exactly should that system be allowed to continue? If you're told that the position in life you have is based on a system that oppresses others, why exactly do you take it as a personal indictment of you? Whites aren't oppressing people. It's those specific PEOPLE that do it. Why does a race have to suffer because of a few ignorant men?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's an analogy: You have direct proof that your collection of gold jewelry was made from the fillings of Jews that were gassed in concentration camps. Would you continue wearing that jewelry knowing where it comes from? Yeah, I don't blame myself. I blame the Nazis! How was I supposed to know this when I bought them? I am not throwing away 10k. If your conscience is that bad, sell it to someone who doesn't care or a Jew.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If not, why does the same thing not apply to privilege?

[Viktorkrum77]

Gah, all I have to say is goodbye America and enjoy your endless conflicts and bad choices. I'll be in Tahiti laughing at you all. (But I do give props to Michigan for actually doing something.)

[Adam007]

By instilling AA they're recognizing there being a problem. AA itself is no solution. If we can, as a society, rise above this whole racial inequality deal, we won't need AA. But as long as there are people who want AA, they're acknowledging that racism will always exist. This self victimization only makes racism worse. Ignore races and stop classifying people by a race, and racism will slowly fade away. AA only encourages racism. In your eyes it might be a partial solution, but it only pulls us further back socially in the scheme of things. The nation is mostly healed from racism and 'oppression.' The whole slavery deal is a sad excuse for under performing, and until people lose that mentality, racism will continue to exist because people will believe they're bound to a race - which just isn't true. As generations come and go, and assimilation continues, racism will gradually lessen. Programs like AA only get in the way of this. AA in terms of economic factors is fine, but nobody should be defined by the color of their skin. That system is disgustingly archaic and I'm glad it's out of Michigan.

[lawrencekill]

 

I swear Viktor made a thread about this. 8 pages long actually. I, personally, am against it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yea, I did. If I wasn't lazy, I'd search and bump it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Haray for laziness.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am saying never because there is no solution and you can't tell me one. Affirmative action isn't a solution, and was never meant to be- it was designed to help level the playing field, and it's succeeding at doing so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your argument that affirmative action harms one group while benefitting another is, translated literally, saying that affirmative action hurts whites.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The problem with that argument is that it assumes that whites don't continue to benefit from the few hundred-odd years of racial oppression (they do, and I can give you examples if you really want).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Harming" whites is simply a laughable argument. You can consider from the day the first slave was delivered to North American soil the first day of "White Affirmative Action".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Level the playing field? You mean tilting it to the others favor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Affirmative action harms more than one group, it's harming anyone who isn't counted toward the affirmative action, which is pretty darn stupid. Just pointing the finger at people to hurt.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Use the magical device called income.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ooo... Smart words. I wonder why not many people thought of using income instead of race, hmmm...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Because you are a certain race doesn't mean you're held back in any aspects, but income certainly affects what you can do. Can't buy materials or something else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Affirmative action or not, by suggesting it, you are suggesting a certain race, or any other factors, is better/worse than another race, which I find defeats the purpose of affirmative action.

[mad4u689]

Chris, I agree with almost everything you have said.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Level the playing field? You mean tilting it to the others favor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That would be true only if the field were already balanced. However, subtle forms of oppression (often institutional) already work to give whites an extremely unfair balance of privilege. It is much easier for a white person to succeed and do well in school WITHIN THE CONTEXT OF TODAY'S SOCIETY than for a student of color. Therefore, the field is already tilted, and affirmative action IS just leveling it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Use the magical device called income.

 

 

 

Ooo... Smart words. I wonder why not many people thought of using income instead of race, hmmm...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Every individual has myriad intersecting identities. Class, ethnicity, race, sexual orientation, sex, gender expression, religion, nationality - none of these can really be isolated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However, each identity has its own power dynamic associated with it. In our current (Western) society, heterosexuals have more privilege than queer individuals. Upper and upper-middle class individuals have more privilege than working class individuals. And white individuals generally have more privilege than individuals of color - within the realm of that specific identity. Someone may be privileged in one regard, and not in another.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is important to acknowledge the privilege that has enabled us to get where we are with such ease. I have no doubt that if I had been black, subtle racism (i.e. kindergarten teachers expecting less from me to begin with, without even realizing it) would have led me to not do as well in school, and not get to where I am as easily. To be honest, I have had such a strong support system and "crutch" network that it would have been near impossible for me to fail and not go to college - despite my putting in little to no effort in high school. This is largely because of the privilege I have enjoyed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please do not disregard the experiences of an individual living as a certain race in society, and also please do not disregard the experiences of an individual living in a certain class in society.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For the record, I am a white.

[____]

I'm not against AA completely (I'm white); however I am against it benifiting people who have no desire to achieve on their own.

 

 

 

If someone in a minority is genuinely trying to better themself (and definately proving it); then by all means give them a bit of a hand to get up there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But NEVER throw AA benifts to any douche in a minority just because they're in the minority - that's when it completely goes to waste and screws over someone who needed it (not the AA; but the position that was filled by AA) :uhh:

[chris1216]

By instilling AA they're recognizing there being a problem. AA itself is no solution. If we can, as a society, rise above this whole racial inequality deal, we won't need AA. But as long as there are people who want AA, they're acknowledging that racism will always exist. This self victimization only makes racism worse. Ignore races and stop classifying people by a race, and racism will slowly fade away. AA only encourages racism. In your eyes it might be a partial solution, but it only pulls us further back socially in the scheme of things. The nation is mostly healed from racism and 'oppression.' The whole slavery deal is a sad excuse for under performing, and until people lose that mentality, racism will continue to exist because people will believe they're bound to a race - which just isn't true. As generations come and go, and assimilation continues, racism will gradually lessen. Programs like AA only get in the way of this. AA in terms of economic factors is fine, but nobody should be defined by the color of their skin. That system is disgustingly archaic and I'm glad it's out of Michigan.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the part of your statement that actually made me laugh is when you said the "nation is mostly healed from racism and oppression".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously, what kind of backward and blind thinking are you doing? You actually think this nation has "healed" anything? This nation has made oppression invisible to YOU. You clearly have led a privileged life, which blinds you to the real situation in the U.S. today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your ivory tower "ignore race and stop paying attention and racism will fade away" is the nihilistic equivalent of "if we can't see it, it'll disappear".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Affirmative action encourages racism? You clearly have some incredibly warped view of what this country was built on. I have two examples from you:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

1) The "constitution" and "freedom" you so value was paradoxically built on enslavement

 

 

 

2) When Texas was owned by Mexico, slavery was ILLEGAL. When Texas declared "independence" and won its "freedom" from Mexico, slavery became LEGAL.