All I have to say is being patriotic doesn't mean supporting the country and its leaders under all circumstances even if you believe they are failing, it is also having doubt in their ability to furthur the country or secure it's greatness.

 

 

 

How is it patriotic to support a country going into Iraq and costing innocent civilian lives for no reason except religious reasons and just to gain economic and political power.

 

 

 

Nobody likes America in the Middle East and they never will and it is America's fault because of their uneccesary involvment there way before this war.

As far as I know the Middle East attacked Israel for not giving there land to them. The US backed up Israel and because of that we were bombed. Furious that we were attacked we retaliated and brought the fight to there own ground. Now if we hadn't retaliated they would have kept on bombing us.

 

 

 

If US hadn't retaliated then all the world powers would be criticizing America for being pathetic and not defending ourselves. If we were to pull out we would have the media and world powers insulting us for not finishing what we started. We are backed between a rock and a hard place.

 

If US hadn't retaliated then all the world powers would be criticizing America for being pathetic and not defending ourselves. If we were to pull out we would have the media and world powers insulting us for not finishing what we started. We are backed between a rock and a hard place.

 

 

 

This is so true. No matter what America does, it will be critisized by someone or something. What the President is doing is what he believes is best for the country, as hard as that might seem for yall to believe. When we invaded, he honestly thought Iraq was a threat, and there was some intelligence that agreed with him, because congress backed him going into the war, with the same intelligence he had access to at the time. America didn't start the civil war in Iraq, centries old rivalries have been going on, America's involvment just brought it to the light, and while it may have magnified it, it was destined to happen sooner or later, better it happen now before neighboring countries find it profitable to sell more advanced weapons to the different sides

As far as I know the Middle East attacked Israel for not giving there land to them. The US backed up Israel and because of that we were bombed. Furious that we were attacked we retaliated and brought the fight to there own ground. Now if we hadn't retaliated they would have kept on bombing us.

 

 

 

If US hadn't retaliated then all the world powers would be criticizing America for being pathetic and not defending ourselves. If we were to pull out we would have the media and world powers insulting us for not finishing what we started. We are backed between a rock and a hard place.

 

Even despite having the least popular American President of all time (thanks to the war), having over half of your population wanting a full withdrawal from Iraq, and having proved that extremism only gets worse when you decide to "retaliate"?

 

 

 

al-Oueda had been going for decades before 9/11, and they'd also been quite a successful terrorist organisation. The US "retaliation" has only given them a (in their eyes) justifiable reason for committing the atrocities they do. All you've done is added fuel to a pretty big and wild bonfire opf terrorism in the Middle-Esat, and actually made your borders less secure.

so baron, it sounds like you want us to go to war in all thse other places to.

 

 

 

tetsuya, if you dont like the way we are fighting now what would you suggest?

 

 

 

Made0f12une............what???????

 

 

 

hoto, from what your saying it sounds like you want us to pull out let millions of people die, let iraq become a terrorist stronghold, and say, "Oh look, their economy is getting better!"

 

 

 

Doughnut, good to see you back on the thread, dont bring up homosexuals again :wink:

so baron, it sounds like you want us to go to war in all thse other places to. tetsuya, if you dont like the way we are fighting now what would you suggest?

 

 

 

um no, where the hell did I say anything at all like that? In fact I'm staunchly against the Iraq war, I was merely highlighting the suffering in all the other places of the world that people often ignore whilst focusing on only the parts that involve or affect them. If you think I want that than you have failed to understand me entirely. I want people to either be non-discriminatory in their aid or stop harping on about it.

 

 

 

War is rarely a solution - aid and peaceful diplomacy often is.

tetsuya, if you dont like the way we are fighting now what would you suggest?

 

 

 

Well, i'm not an expert on counter-terrorism or anything. But I know what we've been doing so far with Iraq hasn't been working. We took out a secular dictator only to bring out a surge of religious extremism in Iraq. =D> :roll: That only really accomplished higher recruitment in organizations like Al Qaeda. Our heavy involvement in the middle east is only making the problem worse.

hoto, from what your saying it sounds like you want us to pull out let millions of people die, let iraq become a terrorist stronghold, and say, "Oh look, their economy is getting better!"

 

 

 

Seriously, have you read a single line I wrote? If an average soldier is as ignorant and can understand his native language as well as you do, your future isn't too bright. Sorry for going to a personal stage but I seriously don't feel like writing long posts to get an answer which makes less sense than many statements from our friend George.

This is so true. No matter what America does, it will be critisized by someone or something. What the President is doing is what he believes is best for the country, as hard as that might seem for yall to believe.

 

 

 

Exactly. Because America has money, a good military, and is one of the world's strongest nations..everybody expects us to step in and do something, but we can't go too far or we might start something else. For those of you who haven't realized..Bush was kind of forced into the position he is in now. He could have let 9/11 slip by..he didn't have to go after Osama..or search for the WMDs in Iraq...but what then? How many more thousands of civilians need to die before this country realizes Bush is doing what he believes is right?

Exactly. Because America has money, a good military, and is one of the world's strongest nations..everybody expects us to step in and do something, but we can't go too far or we might start something else. For those of you who haven't realized..Bush was kind of forced into the position he is in now. He could have let 9/11 slip by..he didn't have to go after Osama..or search for the WMDs in Iraq...but what then? How many more thousands of civilians need to die before this country realizes Bush is doing what he believes is right?

 

 

 

9/11 Was caused by a "terrorist" group (however you want to understand it), not led by a goverment unlike the crimes made by USA. They also had a motive for it: shake your power and show that you can't just get away without getting something sometimes back too at your own soil. They haven't chosen to fight against you for what you are, they do it for things you've done.

 

 

 

Also Bush believing something being right it doesn't mean that would be the best for this world, millions of others or even accepted by your allies. Hitler and other high ranked members of NSDAP believed what they did was right, so did Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and others. You are right on the criticism, it's same everywhere. No matter what any leader has or hasn't done, he's always been critizised by someone. The only difference between the western world and some dictator led countries is that now the ones who got something to say can say it.

 

 

 

With acts like you've done, tens of thousands civilians have already died. The only difference isn't that they've died because of the acts made by Bush, not by these "terrorists". Same time you've given the world a new reason to strike against you and your allies. There's reason why there has been attacks in UK and Spain after Iraq+Afghanistan.

The direction we're currently going in our foreign policy is not going to solve the problem. It's just going to make it worse. 9/11 happened because of our over involvement in the middle east. And all current administration and the neocons in congress did was make our foreign policy more aggressive, which only increased recruitment in terrorist factions.

 

 

 

People who actually believe in that "fight them over there so we don't fight them over here" tripe really need to get with the program and realize how to really resolve the problem. We can't fight terror and religious fundamentalism with conventional warfare like some people seem to think. The strategy we're using is completely wrong, and it only made things worse they they originally were.

 

 

 

awesome! someone finally has the solution to end this worldwide problem!...waits with bated breath....and the solution is??????? maybe huggs all around?

 

 

 

you are right though that 9/11 happened because of our over involvement in foreign problems...what were we thinking....we should have done like the rest of the world, pretend all those atrocities are not happening, look the other way, and continue to just enjoy our lives in blissful ignorance, who cares about all that murdering, slavery and human rights issues...their problem, I agree actually, I think we should just build back up to a 600+ ship navy, patrol our waters and let the rest of the world go straight to....well wherever.

 

 

 

 

 

...and oh by the way Hohto, HUNDREDS of thousands have died before we got involved, easy to forget that, wouldnt be convenient to making USA out to be the great evil empire that you insist we are.

 

 

 

on down in the thread, some helpless lad said or inferred we are their for resources...if we were, we wouldhave just leveled it, and planted a few oil drills...so much easier. come on now, educate thyself, then open the pie hole.

 

 

 

and these poor families that hohto so generously refers to, who "lost loved ones" they dont quite put the same value to life as we do, when a father proudly sports his 4 yo son and daughter wrapped in fake (and real) high explosives and poses for a picture in a parade....a bit different, when that couple last month, parked their car in front of the police station, and walked away with their children still in the back seat (so police wouldnt investigate the abandoned car) and it blew up 2 mins later....just gives you an insight to the pure madness and lack of consideration for life, including their own children..what kind of sick ^%$# does that to his kids, one level above caveman, that is who. Are their innocent casualties? absolutely, collateral damage occurs in every conflict, but they are killing ten times more of these "innocent" people then we are. I love how they hide like cowards behind women and children, and fire RPGs at us, knowing we won't fire back....that doesnt make the news though huh. Why dont you pack up your stuff and move over there, see how much you respect and love those people you picket about so insistently.

 

 

 

what do you mean by that?

 

 

 

Do you accept that kind of things?

 

 

 

as long as it prevents another 9/11

 

 

 

So you'd be perfectly willing to allow yourself or a family member to be subjected to the same treatment if the government randomly decided that you/they could potentially be a terrorist eventhough there is no evidence to suggest it? I doubt it.

 

 

 

Ah, you see, that is where you are wrong. It is not random, if they take someone to prison they have some reason, it may not be concrete, but they have some reason to suspect that person. if they took me, hey i know im not a terrorist so i have nothing to fear. the way i see it is that most of the world wants us to just open up gauntanomo and let all of the people in there (including the 95% that are terrorists) walk free. does anyone seem to remember the repercussions After 9/11? how the government was massivly investigated so they could shed the blame on them? well now when OUR government is doing what it needs to do to keep more people from dying they are getting blamed again! dont talk to me about Why we went to war in Iraq, that is irrelevent now. right now we need to concentrate on finishing what we started. the reason we arent going to pull out and let them settle it is the fact that the shietes and the sunnies will kill thousands of each other. we are the only thing keeping that from happening.

 

Well, you're not particularly doing a good job of that are you... they're still doing it.

 

 

 

The issue we have is the whole philosophy of "sentance without trial". If your government is so adament they're terrorists, then why can't you hold them at Guantanamo only while they're waiting for a trial? In fact, why can't you hold them at any other cell while they await their trial, and just get rid of the controversy of Guantanamo? We don't have a problem with you hunting down terrorists inside your own country - what we have a problem with is holding people in cells without having a fair trial just like any other crime requires.

 

 

 

ah poor ginger...you know what, you're right, we should just behead them like they do our citizens, I am ALL about an eye for and eye. How about that? Would that make you feel better? They have only the rights of the Geneva convention, and actually, since I don't even think they signed off on that (obviously not if they are beheading us on video) then they shouldnt get any consideration in return, but alas, in America, we love to tie our own hands behind our backs with all of our lofty ideals, made by civilians behind tables in Washington, before they go on their 3 day weekend....nothin better then a non combatant, tellng you how to wage war against barbarians. Wow, that is some harsh torture, sleep deprivation.....rock music...hope they survive it, maybe we should use some of the OTHER stuff the world always uses against our soldiers when they are captive...oh no that would'nt be right, what was I thinking. We got to continue to do the "right" thing, only our enemies can do whatever they want without fear of political reprisals. How many of their soldiers I wonder did they imprison or behead for breaking the "rules of engagement"?...ZERO!....you always have rule breakers, the difference is we actually hold ours accountable.

Am I actually supposed to respond to that bad sarcasm?

Dude... You gotta be kidding me....

 

 

 

and these poor families that hohto so generously refers to, who "lost loved ones" they dont quite put the same value to life as we do, when a father proudly sports his 4 yo son and daughter wrapped in fake (and real) high explosives and poses for a picture in a parade....a bit different, when that couple last month, parked their car in front of the police station, and walked away with their children still in the back seat (so police wouldnt investigate the abandoned car) and it blew up 2 mins later....just gives you an insight to the pure madness and lack of consideration for life, including their own children..what kind of sick ^%$# does that to his kids, one level above caveman, that is who.

 

 

 

There are families in hopeless situation and that's a total of 2 situation. Should I post here links to some news links where American mothers or fathers have killed their child(ren)? There also is "normal" people who can actually feel the sadness, sorrow and so on. Their hatred towards people who caused their situation is understandable.

 

 

 

Why dont you pack up your stuff and move over there, see how much you respect and love those people you picket about so insistently.

 

 

 

Why would I? I don't give more (nor less) worth to an Iraqian family than to any other. In my eyes it's worth as much as your family and I don't for sure move your place either, not even if you sent me tickets.

 

 

 

HUNDREDS of thousands have died before we got involved, easy to forget that, wouldnt be convenient to making USA out to be the great evil empire that you insist we are.

 

 

 

Died in which way? Saddam's regime? Natural death? Iran-Iraq war? After your intervention over 66,000 civilians have died in a military intervention. I'd also happily like to get a source for that number and see where have you gotten it from. My source is http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

 

 

 

you are right though that 9/11 happened because of our over involvement in foreign problems...what were we thinking....we should have done like the rest of the world, pretend all those atrocities are not happening, look the other way, and continue to just enjoy our lives in blissful ignorance, who cares about all that murdering, slavery and human rights issues...their problem, I agree actually, I think we should just build back up to a 600+ ship navy, patrol our waters and let the rest of the world go straight to....well wherever.

 

 

 

Human right issues? Don't you got your problems with them too? Mudering? Didn't you have high rates at them too?

 

 

 

There's a difference between helping a nation and attacking them or pressuring them because of your needs. Your current way doesn't stop the things you listed, it just causes their rise.

 

 

 

I am ALL about an eye for and eye.

 

 

 

So it would be ok if someone attacked USA as they are producing nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass destruction? :XD: Also do you know anything about that case we were talking about? From your writing it seemed like you randomly tried to put up some pro-war jargon and hoped it would be in a right place.

hohto, i think he knows a (place that rymes with bell) of a lot more than you about this war.

 

 

 

Lordkrohn, i would really like it if you would tell everyone the exact state(as far as you know) of the war in iraq. if anyone doubts your credintials to talk about please state what you do.

This is laughable... seriously. As well as racist in parts.

 

 

 

ah poor ginger...you know what, you're right, we should just behead them like they do our citizens, I am ALL about an eye for and eye. How about that? Would that make you feel better?

 

Eh? Give me a link of an incident where anyone in Guantanamo Bay has beheaded anyone, let alone a US citizen...

 

 

 

and actually, since I don't even think they signed off on that (obviously not if they are beheading us on video) then they shouldnt get any consideration in return

 

You don't know how wrong you are there. Here you are, saying they're this horrid, cruel group; and yet you're happily admitting to wanting to do exactly the same back to them. Also, if America wants to go about the world as the self-proclaimed "Leader of the Free World", then it has to accept it can't use such punishment techniques, or else it's hypocritical to its own cause.

 

 

 

nothin better then a non combatant, tellng you how to wage war against barbarians.

 

I'd actually more trust an academic that's been through military academy as a leader to wage a war in Washington, than a rookie leader in Iraq. Just because the soldier fights, doesn't mean he knows how to conduct a war. This is the racist part BTW. To label all extremists as 'Barbarians'. If they are though, it shows how bad your army's performing...

 

 

 

Wow, that is some harsh torture, sleep deprivation.....rock music...hope they survive it, maybe we should use some of the OTHER stuff the world always uses against our soldiers when they are captive...oh no that would'nt be right, what was I thinking.

 

I believe I've addressed this issue. To use such methods would make the US hypocritical, as if it needs to be anymore so.

 

 

 

How many of their soldiers I wonder did they imprison or behead for breaking the "rules of engagement"?...ZERO!....you always have rule breakers, the difference is we actually hold ours accountable.

 

How would you know? You destroyed their justice system before they even had a chance to. Also, again, give me an example of a time where the Imperial Guard actually beheaded any Coalition soldier?

 

 

 

hohto, i think he knows a 9place that rymes with bell) of a lot more than you about this war.

 

 

 

Lordkrohn, i would really like it if you would tell everyone the exact state(as far as you know) of the war in iraq. if anyone doubts your credintials to talk about please state what you do.

 

Right... so you've refused to take any advice off the people who's job it is to analyse the situation, and you've refused to take in any of the messages the journalists in Iraq are sending out about this war... but you'll happily accept a soldier's viewpoint? I'm not saying his viewpoint isn't valid, but you can't exclusively accept his viewpoint, and then have the ignorance to shut out everything else, just because it doesn't fit with your argument.

 

 

 

Frankly, that post was laughable, and at times, bordering on racism...

hohto, i think he knows a (place that rymes with bell) of a lot more than you about this war.

 

 

 

He might know better what's happening at the bases of basic soldiers, but he obviously got no idea about the big picture.

 

hohto, i think he knows a (place that rymes with bell) of a lot more than you about this war.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He might know better what's happening at the bases of basic soldiers, but he obviously got no idea about the big picture.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ok then, you tell me exactly what is going on and how we can fix all the problems over there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

this challenge is issued to everyone, i want to know what you all think we should do.

 

 

hohto, i think he knows a (place that rymes with bell) of a lot more than you about this war.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He might know better what's happening at the bases of basic soldiers, but he obviously got no idea about the big picture.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ok then, you tell me exactly what is going on and how we can fix all the problems over there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

this challenge is issued to everyone, i want to know what you all think we should do.

 

 

 

Way to flog a dead horse...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And if you look I for one have already given my solution. The fact is splatmster is that there is no 'nice' way to deal with this problem. If you are of George Bush's belief that all you need to do is pile in a few more troops, drive the resistance out of Iraq, and start a Democractic process for a standing peace in Iraq, then I'm afraid I consider that a hopeless solution conjured up by a fairly naÃÆÃâÃâïve President...

ok then, you tell me exactly what is going on and how we can fix all the problems over there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

this challenge is issued to everyone, i want to know what you all think we should do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's going on a war that's fought because of other goals than are publicly said. You aren't there for democracy which you can't even follow yourself, according to many American professionals going to Iraq could cause a spread of WMD's and in 2003 at Azores Bush said that they'll go there no matter will Saddam leave or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For an answer I am not going to waste 45mins because of you. You skip my questions same way as most animals ignore many commands. We've already discussed here what would be the best move now and you most likely would just ignore all the reasonable answers.

 

ok then, you tell me exactly what is going on and how we can fix all the problems over there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

this challenge is issued to everyone, i want to know what you all think we should do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's going on a war that's fought because of other goals than are publicly said. You aren't there for democracy which you can't even follow yourself, according to many American professionals going to Iraq could cause a spread of WMD's and in 2003 at Azores Bush said that they'll go there no matter will Saddam leave or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For an answer I am not going to waste 45mins because of you. You skip my questions same way as most animals ignore many commands. We've already discussed here what would be the best move now and you most likely would just ignore all the reasonable answers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ok then, take 5 minutes and tell me. im listening.

 

 

ok then, you tell me exactly what is going on and how we can fix all the problems over there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

this challenge is issued to everyone, i want to know what you all think we should do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's going on a war that's fought because of other goals than are publicly said. You aren't there for democracy which you can't even follow yourself, according to many American professionals going to Iraq could cause a spread of WMD's and in 2003 at Azores Bush said that they'll go there no matter will Saddam leave or not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

For an answer I am not going to waste 45mins because of you. You skip my questions same way as most animals ignore many commands. We've already discussed here what would be the best move now and you most likely would just ignore all the reasonable answers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ok then, take 5 minutes and tell me. im listening.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Firstly, m4tty, I think 1_man_army really summed up your post.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for splatmster, did you actually understand a word of hohto's post? I'll sum it up for you in a couple of sentances. Hohto's basically saying that the situation in Iraq is incredibly complicated, involving a whole multitude of different races and parties, and as such doesn't have a simplistic analysis or solution such as the one you're suggesting splatmster, and certainly not one that can be pointed, explained and justified in five minutes. When you're ready for a debate, then I'm here, but if all you're gonna do is ignore the points we make out and accuse us for not supporting the war, then I really see no reason why me or hohto should bother trying to explain our views to you.

why have this debate on a forum where most of the members are kids sitting behind their pc eating crisps and ice cream while playing rs and flaming people? all ull get is stupid replies like "omg nuke the whole of iraq".

 

 

 

anyway i dont get how anyone can support the religion of terrorism. i could write more but its not really worth writing alot to a forum where the average age is around 14.

 

 

 

It's funny that somebody puts down 14 year olds but then utters a moronic phrase like "religion of terrorism."

 

 

 

For the record I'm 19 atm (20 on 8/22) so don't try to take the argument in that direction when/if you reply to this.

 

its not moronic, its true.

 

A name please? I don't know of one...

ok then, take 5 minutes and tell me. im listening.

 

 

 

You obviously got no idea about this. We could discuss about US imperialism or just this part of it for days. The situation isn't something which we can analyse, think and solve in 5 minutes. The point is why I said I don't feel like wasting 45minutes on you is that you obviously just close your eyes on it. I personally don't see a reason writing an essay here and ask you questions which you ignore. I have a lot better use for my time than that, I could for example go to read some more interesting stuff.

 

 

 

anyway i dont get how anyone can support the religion of terrorism. i could write more but its not really worth writing alot to a forum where the average age is around 14.

 

 

 

What is terrorism if I may ask you? Is it causing the death of few thousand civilians after all you've done at their homes? Is it causing the death of tens of thousands of civilians? Is it pressuring multinational companies to boycott a country that doesn't obey you? Is it kidnapping citizens of European countries, torturing them and finally releasing without any trials? Please define the word terrorism before you use it. What I've seen, terrorism is just a word that's part of American mantra and with it anything is allowed. Your ways aren't that different from the acts of "terrorists".

 

 

 

Firstly, m4tty, I think 1_man_army really summed up your post.

 

 

 

As for splatmster, did you actually understand a word of hohto's post? I'll sum it up for you in a couple of sentances. Hohto's basically saying that the situation in Iraq is incredibly complicated, involving a whole multitude of different races and parties, and as such doesn't have a simplistic analysis or solution such as the one you're suggesting splatmster, and certainly not one that can be pointed, explained and justified in five minutes. When you're ready for a debate, then I'm here, but if all you're gonna do is ignore the points we make out and accuse us for not supporting the war, then I really see no reason why me or hohto should bother trying to explain our views to you.

 

 

 

Alright, then i will try to explain the purpose of asking this question. im asking to point out exactly what both of you have been saying, there is no obvious solution. im not going to say you should or shouldnt be supporting the war. im simply showing you that the government you have been addamently accusing of being negligent and dumb is facing the exact same points as you have discussed. im trying to show you that they CANT do all this stuff you want them to do. im trying to get a summed up version of what you all think president bush should do.

 

 

 

lets try this

 

 

 

1: should we be in iraq?

 

 

 

2: even if no, what is something we could improve apon in iraq?

 

 

 

3: Should we make a complete and immediate withdrawal?

 

 

 

4: If we stay, how should we support iraq?

 

 

 

try to keep the answers brief, i would like to try some clear and concise discussion.

 

 

 

btw, i have read all the above posts, just the fact i only have limited time on my computer and there have been so many different opinions and plans voiced i havent really been able to answer many of them.

i think blizzard should make a mmorpg and host it on the internet for everyone to rid of there anger