prejudice yes, wrong, maybe not.

 

 

 

Must stop...quote pyramid.

 

 

 

Anyway, what you're saying is that you think just because someone is Muslim, it means that they're less capable of running a country then a North American?

I think that we could win this war. We are the most powerful country in the world. Let the military run this war the way a war should be run. Will people get ki11ed? yea. But this is war, and it's not going to be perfect. I was against going into Iraq in the first place, but now that we are in we can't just abandon the place to civil war.

I think that we could win this war. We are the most powerful country in the world.

 

 

 

Thats what you said about Vietnamn.

I think that we could win this war. We are the most powerful country in the world. Let the military run this war the way a war should be run. Will people get ki11ed? yea. But this is war, and it's not going to be perfect. I was against going into Iraq in the first place, but now that we are in we can't just abandon the place to civil war.

 

 

 

How would you exactly do it? It isn't anymore anything like you see at Save private Ryan or other hollywood movies. The enemy is hidden, it strikes and vanishes again. If you went into a real massacre, it would be a political suicide, both nationally and internationally. Why? Because it would go mainly against civils as the troops aren't that organised anymore.

 

 

 

IMO the best opinion would be withdrawing the soldiers slowly and setting up international peacekeepers. After the civil war is over, then take slowly those peacekeepers back home. Same strategy has worked in Balkan where was even bloodier wars and more cultures fighting.

 

 

 

edit: Also wars don't just depend on numbers. We saw it in Vietnam, we saw it in Winter&Continual wars and we saw it when the Soviet Union attacked against Afganistan. Numbers help a lot, but there are few other factors in war too, here to name few which now at almost 1.00 am come to my mind.

 

* Never underestimate the enemy. If you aren't fully prepared, you might soon find problems.

 

* The one who knows the area better has an advantage. Vietnamese people knew their jungles, Finns were experts to live in cold conditions in the middle of nowhere and Afgans survived at the desert.

 

* Keep the moral high. Iraqians are defending themselves and won't give up. If you can't offer anything for that, your have a bloody and long war ahead. Every time an Iraqia civil dies, they get more reasons to fight and defend their lands so others won't die.

I think that we could win this war. We are the most powerful country in the world. Let the military run this war the way a war should be run. Will people get ki11ed? yea. But this is war, and it's not going to be perfect. I was against going into Iraq in the first place, but now that we are in we can't just abandon the place to civil war.

 

 

 

What makes me laugh is he's made that comment with that avatar going next to it. Do you not listen to Billie Joe Armstrong's lyrics in American Idiot or Wake Me Up When September Ends?

 

 

 

Power does not equal victory. Anyone who thinks that is foolish quite frankly. We've heard this power message before with Kennedy, and although I have some respect for him for his involvement in Black Civil Rights, he was wrong and King was right. There is so much more to war than brute force, and I'm sorry to all American Nationalists, but you seem to have a history of making that mistake!

 

 

 

As far as I see it, you have two choices - retreat, or die. The choice is yours, but I for one am in favour of bringing the UK troops home, as there's nothing they or the Americans can do there anymore! We made the situation in the first place, yes, but that doesn't give us any right to stay there and make things worse in the process of trying to make things OK. As far as Iraqis are concerned, they want us gone. We should respect their democratic right to request that, and leave.

its just one person. And if a soldier dosen't like the war, then why is he there? How many people in the U.S. are forced to go to war?

 

 

 

Your only 1 person, so why are you here? Your posts do no matter, your opinions do not count, because your just one person.

 

 

 

While to the world your only one, to someone else, your the world.

 

 

 

Don't be so ignorant.

 

 

 

~Defender~

its just one person. And if a soldier dosen't like the war, then why is he there? How many people in the U.S. are forced to go to war?

 

 

 

Your only 1 person, so why are you here? Your posts do no matter, your opinions do not count, because your just one person.

 

 

 

While to the world your only one, to someone else, your the world.

 

 

 

Don't be so ignorant.

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

I think his point was that soldiers know what they are going into when they join the army, they know the risks (such as going to war) and the possible consquences therefore they cant complain when they have to carry out some ofthe duties they are paid to do. Thats what Malo meant he/she just didn't word it well thats all.

 

Can you imagine the uproar that'd be caused is the USA accidentally killed 100 Iraqi civilians, thinking they were terrorists?

 

 

 

NATO forces in Afghanistan; Mostly americans; kill tens of civilians per every "airstrike" to kill one rebel leader who is later found out to be alive. Every single week.

 

 

 

Read this article to understand the situation better. There is no "uproar" when the US army inflicts mass civilian casualties.

 

 

 

The only "uproar" is caused when a british 4 year old girl from an idyllic british family gets kidnapped abroad. Tens of thousands of foreign "trash" kids get raped, murdered, forced to labor, recruited to war every week too, but there's no cause for uproar because they aren't "humans" after all, right? They're just some inexistant people and statistics in a distant country?

NATO forces in Afghanistan; Mostly americans; kill tens of civilians per every "airstrike" to kill one rebel leader who is later found out to be alive. Every single week.

 

 

 

Read this article to understand the situation better. There is no "uproar" when the US army inflicts mass civilian casualties.

 

 

 

The only "uproar" is caused when a british 4 year old girl from an idyllic british family gets kidnapped abroad. Tens of thousands of foreign "trash" kids get raped, murdered, forced to labor, recruited to war every week too, but there's no cause for uproar because they aren't "humans" after all, right? They're just some inexistant people and statistics in a distant country?

 

 

 

Exactly. If the enemy does something wrong, they are criminals. When we do the same, we are either doing it for democracy, for our freedom or we just made a mistake. The way how things are judged depends about who does them, not what has been done. Good example is from latest news:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6694351.stm

 

 

 

About 40 people have now died in 10 days of Israeli bombings in Gaza, which Israel says is aimed at stopping rocket attacks on its territory by militants.

 

 

 

40 people died in those air strikes, yet we only hear how one or 2 Hamas politicians have been died in them. When the palestinians shoot their rockets (which isn't right either), they are criminals. Basically both are doing the same thing, but only Israel's acts are accepted. You can compare that amount to Israel:

 

 

 

One Israeli civilian has been killed and 16 wounded by rockets fired into Israeli border towns, particularly Sderot, in recent days.

 

 

 

Yea it's not USA in this case, but it shows the point. When your ally does something, it's ok. I'd also want to end this to a quote which should make some of you think:

 

 

 

One of the most dangerous ideas of the 20th century was that "people like us" could not commit atrocities against civilians.

 

 

 

* German and Japanese citizens believed it, but their militaries slaughtered millions of people.

 

* British and French citizens believed it, but their militaries fought brutal colonial wars in Africa and Asia.

 

* Russian citizens believed it, but their armies murdered civilians in Afghanistan, Chechnya, and elsewhere.

 

* Israeli citizens believed it, but their army mowed down Palestinians and Lebanese.

 

* Arabs believed it, but suicide bombers and hijackers targeted U.S. and Israeli civilians.

 

* U.S. citizens believed it, but their military killed hundreds of thousands in Vietnam, Iraq, and elsewhere.

The only "uproar" is caused when a british 4 year old girl from an idyllic british family gets kidnapped abroad.

 

 

 

Oh God don't get me started on that. You tell anyone here in the UK it's partly the parents fault for leaving their child unattended and you get called shallow and evil. I'm sorry if the truth hurts... let's face it if it was in the UK, Social Services would have those kids taken off them for it!

 

 

 

But I agree with the rest of that post. Hundreds of Iraqis due every week due to the occupation, yet we only seem to care because ~100 American troops died this month.

 

 

 

They kill us, it's seen as a vicious act of Jihad. We kill them, it's seen as an 'accident' and a necessary price for their 'Democracy'.

 

About 40 people have now died in 10 days of Israeli bombings in Gaza, which Israel says is aimed at stopping rocket attacks on its territory by militants.

 

 

 

40 people died in those air strikes, yet we only hear how one or 2 Hamas politicians have been died in them. When the palestinians shoot their rockets (which isn't right either), they are criminals. Basically both are doing the same thing, but only Israel's acts are accepted. You can compare that amount to Israel:

 

 

 

One Israeli civilian has been killed and 16 wounded by rockets fired into Israeli border towns, particularly Sderot, in recent days.

 

 

 

Yea it's not USA in this case, but it shows the point. When your ally does something, it's ok.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The west has always been hypocritical towards Israel, it's almost like no matter how far they go they get away with it. I understand that Israel has alot to put up with but it's absolutely no juistification for some of the things that they get away with.

The west has always been hypocritical towards Israel, it's almost like no matter how far they go they get away with it. I understand that Israel has alot to put up with but it's absolutely no juistification for some of the things that they get away with.

 

 

 

The story of Isreal and the Jews stems some 2,000 years in history. The behaviour of Isreal can partly be explained by the way Jews were persecuted throughout History, firstly in the Roman Empire, then the Christian Church-controlled Middle Ages, the Islamic World, then the Industrial Revolution, Marxism and, obviously, the persecuation of Jews in Nazi Germany. It's understandable that now the Jews actually have a state to call their own, they'll do anything to maintain it. It's almost a sense of paranoia that's developed throughout those 2,000 years.

 

 

 

This doesn't however excuse their blatent racism. I know of no other UN country allowed to actually write racist messages in their own constitution,a dn it annoys me how the Western world ignore the disgusting behaviour of the Isrealli government towards Lebanon and Palestine. While both of the latter countries aren't glistening examples, it doesn't excuse countless Isrealli attacks which they are forced to undergo.

The west has always been hypocritical towards Israel, it's almost like no matter how far they go they get away with it. I understand that Israel has alot to put up with but it's absolutely no juistification for some of the things that they get away with.

 

 

 

The story of Isreal and the Jews stems some 2,000 years in history. The behaviour of Isreal can partly be explained by the way Jews were persecuted throughout History, firstly in the Roman Empire, then the Christian Church-controlled Middle Ages, the Islamic World, then the Industrial Revolution, Marxism and, obviously, the persecuation of Jews in Nazi Germany. It's understandable that now the Jews actually have a state to call their own, they'll do anything to maintain it. It's almost a sense of paranoia that's developed throughout those 2,000 years.

 

 

 

This doesn't however excuse their blatent racism. I know of no other UN country allowed to actually write racist messages in their own constitution,a dn it annoys me how the Western world ignore the disgusting behaviour of the Isrealli government towards Lebanon and Palestine. While both of the latter countries aren't glistening examples, it doesn't excuse countless Isrealli attacks which they are forced to undergo.

 

 

 

I hate to go so off-topic, but this is a really interesting subject to me. I have a kind of weird background; I'm Jewish and was raised to be pretty Zionist and anti-Palestinian, and lately have been deconstructing those beliefs, and I visited Israel this past January and kind of changed my opinions about the state of Israel based on what I saw there.

 

 

 

Most Israelis are extremely prejudiced.

 

 

 

Most Israelis really think that Palestinians and Muslim Arabs in general are out to get them. There's some truth to the statement, to be sure; however, the entire Israeli state is embedded with a militaristic attitude that believes the life of any one Jewish Israeli is worth whatever cost in lives of other people. Like, it's really a belief that is just ingrained into the culture there. I mean, most Israelis are good people; however, the entire state is founded on a notion of chosenness and exclusion that is at odds with a long-term peaceful existence. I'm not saying the Palestinians are in a better position or are any less prejudiced; however, I don't know "their side" as well, and so all I can attest to is that Israel needs to massively rethink pretty much the "ideals" it was founded on.

however, I don't know "their side" as well, and so all I can attest to is that Israel needs to massively rethink pretty much the "ideals" it was founded on.

 

 

 

That's kind of impossible, given the Jewish religion. You know, "God's chosen people".

One would have to think that God wouldn't be beyond a little Israeli-[bleep]-slapping to get them in line. :P

One would have to think that God wouldn't be beyond a little Israeli-[bleep]-slapping to get them in line. :P

 

 

 

He's done it before, according to the Old Testament. Babylon, for example.

The west has always been hypocritical towards Israel, it's almost like no matter how far they go they get away with it. I understand that Israel has alot to put up with but it's absolutely no juistification for some of the things that they get away with.

 

 

 

The story of Isreal and the Jews stems some 2,000 years in history. The behaviour of Isreal can partly be explained by the way Jews were persecuted throughout History, firstly in the Roman Empire, then the Christian Church-controlled Middle Ages, the Islamic World, then the Industrial Revolution, Marxism and, obviously, the persecuation of Jews in Nazi Germany. It's understandable that now the Jews actually have a state to call their own, they'll do anything to maintain it. It's almost a sense of paranoia that's developed throughout those 2,000 years.

 

 

 

 

I know what you mean, I understand the deep lying historical backgorund of Israel the effects of its past. I was just reffering to Israel as a nation state (1948?-present) and how other countries allow Israel to do what they want.

I know what you mean, I understand the deep lying historical backgorund of Israel the effects of its past. I was just reffering to Israel as a nation state (1948?-present) and how other countries allow Israel to do what they want.

 

 

 

Well, I don't believe all countries want to. However, the US supports the State of Isreal being there and would therefore never say a bad word about it. And, unfortunetely, America being the most powerful country in the world both economically and militarily means they really get to call the shots.

 

 

 

Maybe it'll change when China takes their place... but I doubt it...

I think that we could win this war. We are the most powerful country in the world.

 

 

 

Thats what you said about Vietnamn.

 

 

 

We could have won in Vietnam too. After the Tet Offensive, the North Vietnamese army was crushed. But, the American media portrayed it as a defeat for us. Years later, the North Vietnamese general Jaip actually thanked the US media. he said that without them he would have lost the war. Also, we lost because of restrictions by our government. We were not allowed to cross into North Vietnam, we were not allowed to key harbors where equipment came in, we were not alloud to the capital and were were not allowed to dikes that would cut flood the North Vienamese food supply.

 

 

 

BTW I have the Green Day symbol in my sig because I like their music, not because I agree with every single thing that they say.

alright, this post has gone way beyond what i thought it would. im thinking about changing the title of it. should i? and if so, what should i change it too?

We could have won in Vietnam too. After the Tet Offensive, the North Vietnamese army was crushed. But, the American media portrayed it as a defeat for us. Years later, the North Vietnamese general Jaip actually thanked the US media. he said that without them he would have lost the war. Also, we lost because of restrictions by our government. We were not allowed to cross into North Vietnam, we were not allowed to key harbors where equipment came in, we were not alloud to the capital and were were not allowed to dikes that would cut flood the North Vienamese food supply.

 

 

 

Spot the double irony in your argument. You're clearly patriotic of your own country. That's not a bad thing, although I'm not a patriot of England, I can understand why you feel that way. However, America is a country based on nationalism, patriotism and above all else, hope. Your own national anthem represents that.

 

 

 

However, often with patriotism comes sentimentalism. If there's one thing the American media doesn't like, it's body bags coming home. While in the UK most of the anger over the Iraq war comes from how much of a mess we've made the country (and how US and UK intelligence lied over WMDs), in America it seems that most people have been alienated against the war by the sheer mass of soldiers coming home dead.

 

 

 

America is a patriotic country. I don't think there's much to debate there. However, this means that soldiers coming home dead has more of an effect on your mentallity than it does here in the UK, especially when our casualties are <10% of yours.

 

 

 

You can't expect people (and therefore, the media) *not* to feel hurt by (I think) 3,000 US troops dying in Iraq, and then feel patriotic about the war at the same time.

 

 

 

alright, this post has gone way beyond what i thought it would. im thinking about changing the title of it. should i? and if so, what should i change it too?

 

 

 

Um... change it to something about US foreign policy and the Middle East in general. That seems the most appropriate title.

We could have won in Vietnam too. After the Tet Offensive, the North Vietnamese army was crushed. But, the American media portrayed it as a defeat for us. Years later, the North Vietnamese general Jaip actually thanked the US media. he said that without them he would have lost the war. Also, we lost because of restrictions by our government. We were not allowed to cross into North Vietnam, we were not allowed to key harbors where equipment came in, we were not alloud to the capital and were were not allowed to dikes that would cut flood the North Vienamese food supply.

 

 

 

It depends what do you see as a win. In Vietnam you only won battles, not the war. It was politically a bad move, cost you a lot and gave communism a place in Asia. If your goverment wouldn't have set you any restrictions, it could have led into a domestic chaos. You already saw the riots there. What would have happened if you had cut the food supply? You wouldn't just been murderers of hundreds of thousands of innocent people, you would also have been the scumbags of the world and even bigger murderer than Stalin&Hitler were together.

 

 

 

Yea media played there a huge role and affected negatively to your warfare. However the current situation isn't any better: freelance reporters, internet, better intelligence services and other newer stuff affect to it how realistic information can be gotten. Of course it still depends about the source, but at least we got the ability to get some neutral or even better, enemy side news.

however, I don't know "their side" as well, and so all I can attest to is that Israel needs to massively rethink pretty much the "ideals" it was founded on.

 

 

 

That's kind of impossible, given the Jewish religion. You know, "God's chosen people".

 

 

 

There's a significant movement in some denomination-thingies of Judaism to revise this concept of "chosen people." One of the most standard traditional Jewish prayers, the Aleinu, has been revised or omitted completely in many reform and reconstructionist Jewish communities as a result. I think the problem with Israel is that it's very much founded on the "chosen people" idea, and I think any country that thinks it has some sort of divine mandate is bound to cause problems.

Yea media played there a huge role and affected negatively to your warfare. However the current situation isn't any better: freelance reporters, internet, better intelligence services and other newer stuff affect to it how realistic information can be gotten. Of course it still depends about the source, but at least we got the ability to get some neutral or even better, enemy side news.

 

 

 

+1

 

 

 

In fact, it's even worse now. At least back then, the media had some kind of responsibility. Nowadays, even if someone's only suspected of being a terrorist (not even charged), their address, name and private love life stories are printed all over the tabloids the following day, as if they still have no right to privacy or silence.

Nowadays, even if someone's only suspected of being a terrorist (not even charged), their address, name and private love life stories are printed all over the tabloids the following day, as if they still have no right to privacy or silence.

 

 

 

Or they are just thrown into one of the "jails" which are totally against all human rights :P