Yoko Kurama

Too funny:

For most of EoC you definitely had to ability spam, until revolution came along. The whole point of EoC was spamming abilities.I don't count full manual as spamming, it's utilizing the options to optimize your damage output. Spamming implies using abilities without any thought process on how different abilities work together.Just because it's thoughtful doesn't mean it's not spamming. You learn the best rotations (which should take all but two seconds) and then you spam those reflexively. EoC is most definitely spamming, hell, the whole point is that the basic unit is special abilities (as opposed to autoattacks). This cannot be denied, semantics aside, that EoC is all about key mashing (a common term amongst EoCer's). I dont know... should i use dibilitate or barricade if im attacker and am up for provoking? Obviously dibilitate. Its button mashing if the ability effects are purely for dps. Nope... not ability mashing. DPS is one of the most important aspects of combat, particularly at high level PVM. Say RoTS or KK or Rago, most of the players on the team are DPS, and even those who aren't (tanks) have to focus on DPS at times. What does this consist of? You ask someone, or find out yourself the best rotations for each phase/part and repeat them reflexively. It is definitely ability mashing. At low level combat, say slayer, you still need to spam abilities if you want fast kills, but you don't have to necessarily stick to a rotation, because they will die quickly. That was the picture pre-revolution.

For most of EoC you definitely had to ability spam, until revolution came along. The whole point of EoC was spamming abilities. I don't count full manual as spamming, it's utilizing the options to optimize your damage output. Spamming implies using abilities without any thought process on how different abilities work together. Just because it's thoughtful doesn't mean it's not spamming. You learn the best rotations (which should take all but two seconds) and then you spam those reflexively. EoC is most definitely spamming, hell, the whole point is that the basic unit is special abilities (as opposed to autoattacks). This cannot be denied, semantics aside, that EoC is all about key mashing (a common term amongst EoCer's).

All today. The Zombie, I got one, banked it, killed some more Zombies, got another.

For most of EoC you definitely had to ability spam, until revolution came along. The whole point of EoC was spamming abilities.

This. Since Jagex completely rushed Legacy and released it way before anyone thought it was ready, thus rendering the live game into the beta, they have had to do constant 'hotfixes' and no doubt hidden updates. Everything is constantly being changed. There's no way to verify anything, but it did seem like that 2h t70/80 weapons were either better than or at least dangerously close to t90 DW weapons for a while. can you post proof? Take that! However the 15% is blindly stated on rsof forums, but a nerf is confirmed. Quick find code: 15-16-66-65427485 They don't want there to be a 'default' style that people feel they have to use because it's the best, so they did what? Nerf Legacy, thus making EoC try-hard the default mode? :rolleyes: That was the only one good thing about Legacy, for me anyways, not having to ability spam all day long for every single slayer task. Depending on how bad they have nerfed Legacy, they might have just ruined that.

^ Such 'jokes' are not really appropriate or very nice.

So you're telling me that iTrolledU and Spingberg wouldn't be part of the discussion of this thread if Jagex didn't change?!?! If that wasn't obvious enough already, lol. Btw hate posts for iTrolledU go back towards a month or so ago, check them out; the posts weren't only from me and guy. No, I am saying that if it weren't for Jagex, then neither Forsberg, nor ItrolledU, nor anyone else could buy spins.

Au contraire: With special emphasis on the second sentence in the definition. Dude the sentence right after that one literally says cheating is subjective lol Wasn't in response to your statement that cheating is subjective, just Hedgehog's statement that my definition is entirely wrong. I'd concede to you that it is subjective (though, IMO, in games it is a bit less so since cheating often becomes synonymous with the rules of the game which are usually clear and not as morally vague as IRL situations).

That's fair enough. Though I think the game's been under "volatile status" for a very long time now haha Maybe I'm jaded, but things seem to get worse and worse. There was never some golden age where we all got along, but the community (largely due to management) has sort of splintered off and become polarized to extremes. Just the other day, someone mentioned that the Legacy update was almost here (with no comment on whether it was good or bad, just that it was almost here) in my clan chat, and people who are usually very nice and reasonable, lost their mind and went batshit insane. That's an anecdote but it's telling and a lot more common these days.

Au contraire: With special emphasis on the second sentence in the definition.

We're more or less in agreement or at least at an understanding then. I am not opposed to this idea in theory or in principle (PVM reqs for comp), I just don't think now's the time for it, given the volatile situation in game.

Well then perhaps we differ in our definitions. A basic, though not the only definition, of cheating entails breaking or bending the rules to gain unfair advantages, or being dishonest with regards to the rules. That's a definition that I'd accept. In our situation, neither Forsberg nor ITrolledU are breaking any of the rules or bending them - they don't have to, the rules are tailor-made to suit their gameplay.

This requirement will not affect me. I have already beaten every single boss in the game (and I regularly do RoTS/Rago), and if or when this requirement comes out, if Jagex recognizes all the kills I have done, I will already have it, or I will organize my team, and get it within 1-2 hours at most (which is nothing). The day a requirement comes that I can no longer do for comp or no longer want to do for comp, I will simply abstain from it, and life will go on. (I originally boycotted comp for 6 months because I thought Livid was [bleep]ing stupid.) I reject this requirement simply because of the other externalities it will have on the community. Do a lot of them go back to entitlement issues? Sure. But the community is entitled, and there will a lot of butthurt, animosity, drama and division if comp skillers have to do this. I don't see much benefit coming out of that. Yes but I remember very clearly back before you had 99 in every skill, we were talking about how much you hated training certain skills to 99 yet you still did so out of obligation. That's where you and I differ. I only train stats if they're a necessary evil in order to reach a bigger goal which will make me happier (e.g. training certain skills in OSRS to their minimal level required for a quest in order to get barrows gloves so I can go do PvP). Sorry but I have my doubts about your claim that you will abstain from participating in activities which you do not enjoy :P The community will get butthurt over any updates Jagex makes to the comp cape. The community will also get butthurt over any lack of updates to the comp cape. It's just something you have to accept (and ignore). A wise man will make the woes of the RS community irrelevant to his own personal enjoyment of the game :D By the time I started my path to 99's/Max/Comp (I never actually had that as a goal, it just happened), most skills were visibly a joke, and I was effortlessly able to get them to 99. I had just returned to RS after a 1 year break, didn't have much money, so I decided to level up some skills to 90+ for dungeoneering (my one true passion in RS - I was aiming for a specific thing that I wanted, i.e. to be able to do most of the skilling in dungeoneering, making armour etc.). Pretty soon I was soaring through them despite a lot of school work. I was getting from like 85-99 in 2 weeks, when in the past it would take months at least for most people to get the same. The only skill that took me a long time to get were slayer/summoning/dungeoneering, all because I did them back in the day when they were hard and I did them because I enjoyed them. I basically ended up Maxing because of that in February 2013 (I already had 120 dungeoneering because I enjoyed it). I still refused to do Livid, but the sort of people I hang around with me slowly persuaded me to do it, and I ended up AFK'ing while listening to lectures and stuff on Youtube. And hence I was comped. I don't personally get affected by butthurt on RSOF/community (I rarely visit the forums, except when something major happens), but the game is in a lot of turmoil because of the EoC/2007/Legacy split, and the recent Legacy update which was extremely rushed, and not ready, and which has (contrary to Jagex's promises) affected EoC and turned a lot of things upside down. Probably not a good idea to spring a major redefinition of the comp cape onto the game just yet. It's probably best for Jagex to do damage control and try to harmonize the community for now.

There is no 'worse'. Neither Forsberg or ITrolledU have done anything egregious. They have both simply surveyed the system, and exploited the best legal methods available to get to the top. Which is what you should be doing if you're serious about winning this race. The reason this didn't happen in the past is because we had a decent system where Jagex didn't tolerate this sort of stuff, so players weren't able to do it (for instance, Jagex would have never let someone millions of experience in a skill like slayer effortlessly when most players have to work super hard to get even a small fraction of that in such a prestigious skill - in the past, it would have been instantly nerfed). Well, they changed the system. The players aren't any worse (on the top of the mountain or the bottom) than they were ever, it's only Jagex that has changed.

This requirement will not affect me. I have already beaten every single boss in the game (and I regularly do RoTS/Rago), and if or when this requirement comes out, if Jagex recognizes all the kills I have done, I will already have it, or I will organize my team, and get it within 1 hour or so at most or whatever the minimum time is to beat every boss in the game (which is nothing). The day a requirement comes that I can no longer do for comp or no longer want to do for comp, I will simply abstain from it, and life will go on. (I originally boycotted comp for 6 months because I thought Livid was [bleep]ing stupid.) I reject this requirement simply because of the other externalities it will have on the community. Do a lot of them go back to entitlement issues? Sure. But the community is entitled, and there will a lot of butthurt, animosity, drama and division if comp skillers have to do this. I don't see much benefit coming out of that.

Cheating is not a subjective term. It is not up to you or me to decide what constitutes cheating. It's up to Jagex, and their position on this is clear. Just like 'legality' is not what I think it should be, but rather what the state or the courts decide it to be. Jagex is the only person to be held accountable in this scenario. They have ultimate power over RS, and they control the supply (the most important element). We may all want to buy spins, but no one can until Jagex decides to provide that to us. They're the ones who put that system in place. Blame the system, not this or that individual who just happens to be using it to his/her advantage. LOL As if buying spins wasn't enough "Gain XP at all costs" should be his motto. That's the motto of every single top page player, and the motto for most of the high level community. Nothing shocking there. No need to single out Forsberg in particular. He's simply using every resource at his disposal, which is what everyone does. 'Top page players' dish out money like spinberg and dish out more money on alts for exp boosts? He wouldn't even be the discussion of this thread if he never bought those spins to get him where he is now, who else can I single out? Post some usernames/screenshots like guy0ne has because I don't believe that this is normal or spread out through all top players. Didn't ITrolledU just spend 4.5B on bonds for spins during Prismania, the opening of which he streamed live, and through which he was able to get most of the bonus experience needed for 200M Divination or something? Where's your hate for him? This outrage over top players is totally irrelevant. Everyone has different resources which they use to their advantage. Drumgun, by his own admission plays 17+ hours a day, so he has plenty of time. He uses that to his advantage. Is that fair to people who have to balance RS with school, possibly work, and other stuff? Forsberg has plenty of money, so he uses that to his advantage. ITrolledU has a decent bit of time, lots of money made from PVM, so much so that he can afford to buy the fastest and most expensive methods for any skills, and a lot of Twitch followers/his own clan that helped him with KK for slayer and tagging other tasks at times. ITrolledU even made his own clan so that he could always have an avatar for slayer (something which wasn't allowed in his previous clan). Is that fair to people who don't have those resources? Life is not fair. This moral outrage over players is totally phoney. Extreme competition by definition means that people will use every card in their sleeve to get ahead. Forsberg is not some outlier or extreme offender. I dislike itrolledu as much as forsberg888, he's just as bad and mabye even worse. But not even itrolledu used an alt to hold the avatar while he was doing glacors with his familiar which picks things up. He just went to the world that clanmates had it on for 3% lol. Forsberg is too desperate seems he cant handle the grind. and i focus on Forsberg888 because he is rank 2. itrolledu isn't even going to be top 5 or 10 to 200m all. focus on him later Is that really what this boils down to? That Forsberg is having an alt hold an avatar? That's it? Plenty of clans have alts which hold avatars, especially during this month because of rhinos (no one wants to hold avatars because the rhino gives 10%, as opposed to the avatar's 6%), so a lot of clans are allowing alts in to hold avatars. As long as Forsberg's clan is okay with it, there's nothing wrong with the situation. What are you going to do? Cook up some moral calculus or checklist where you list all their activities, and give them points, and decide who is worse? Well ITrolledU did X, Y, and Z, but Forsberg did X, Y, Z, and that other thing, so I guess he's worse. It's silly to think like that.

Obtaining a completionist cape is also a very high level and elite activity that only a very few people engage in. That vote was polled by EVERY RS PLAYER, not just PvM'ers and not just completionists. Therefore, those statistics are irrelevant to the issue, unless every player who voted in that poll intends to obtain a completionist cape. Even then, a player's opinion is irrelevant to what is and what is not considered a completionist requirement. This issue only affects a very small minority of the playerbase. Out of the hundreds of thousands of RS players out there, how many of them have completionist capes? Of the players with completionist capes, how many of them are "completely incapable" of ever killing every RS boss, even with hours and hours of practice? Do you see my point yet? >_> The poll is not terribly relevant, but it does reflect what everyone knows to be the case. Most of the players are oriented towards skilling. There's dozen and dozens of Comp (and some Trim) players who don't do PVM at all. They probably could learn given the time, and effort. But the community is by and large a skilling one (even at the high end levels). The comp cape has until recently reflected that (the bulk of the requirements were skills, quests, and certain minigames, and diary requirements). There's nothing wrong with gearing it more towards PVM, but this isn't going to accomplish that. I don't see much point in changing the cape now or redefining it (which is what this requirement is). Also, on a minor note, just as with the Warmonger title, I'd like this title to be somewhat unique and optional (i.e. those of us who like titles or the activities associated with particular titles get them to show our affinity with it because we actually enjoy the content, such as myself). I got the Warmonger title, and the Daemonheim title, not because I was ever going to trim, but because I like DG and that particular title. Similarly, as a PVMer, I will easily get the Reaper title (the reward for killing all bosses once) regardless of whether it is a completionist requirement or not, because I like that sort of stuff. Let people like me get it if we want, and leave the skillers to do whatever they're doing. Yes, but the completionist cape is not meant to include only the activities that most people spend their time doing (or even ENJOY spending their time doing). It's meant to include what seems to reasonably represent the sum of all of RS' core activities and goals. If we were to follow your logic, then we should remove anything from the completionist requirements that most people don't enjoy doing such as Livid Farm while we're at it. I have been advocating the removal of Livid for years. In fact, I almost didn't comp myself because of how horrible I regarded Livid to be. No argument from me there. :D (I am just having fun, don't worry, not ignoring your intended point). I just think this PVM requirement is going split the community more, and cause more harm than any good it does. It will also cause resentment in the skilling segment of compers who don't PVM, and it will cause resentment within the PVM community if the forums/teams are flooded with noobs desperately trying to get their comp capes back. It will also be leeched (which could be fixed with mechanics, but Jagex won't add damage requirements, thus making this requirement self-defeating). Things have been a certain way (skilling and skillers have gained preeminence) and my feeling is for Jagex to just leave it that way for now. That has been reflected in the comp cape (with the two exceptions SM mentioned) for years, and it may as well be left like that.

The most egregious example (I think it's an example, I am not sure) was when they randomly decided to make PoP storyline completion a comp req. It didn't affect me at all since I have have done Ports hard from the beginning, but a lot of other players who didn't care for Ports (they had no reason to do so, since when it was released Jagex didn't announce any comp reqs) but were comp were suddenly without comp capes and had to wait a couple of months to get it back.

Well, I am not sure I liked your post for the reason(s) you may have intended. Obviously I interpreted (as any reader does with any text, or in this case post) in ways which you might not have intended, but every reader makes a text his own in some way or another. The idea is that it doesn't matter if everyone cheats. It's still cheating. Cheating doesn't mean taking advantage of something that others aren't able to take advantage of. It means abusing something to get ahead of the competition. You absolutely cannot justify cheating as "using every advantage available". That's what steroid users did and it created the darkest era in professional sports. My point (and the reason why I liked your original post) was that in a situation where everyone (an exaggeration) or a lot of people are cheating, it is wrong and hypocritical to focus in on one of those people while forgetting about the rest. Selective outrage or enforcement is no justice at all. If you don't like the current way the highscores race works, then don't just pick out one player (Forsberg) in the game and single him out, focus your hate towards the system as a whole, or Jagex for enabling and allowing this. Also, buying spins is not cheating, however distasteful some may find it here to do so.

I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with adding bosses to the comp cape or buffing up the PVM requirements for trim cape, or even adding extreme PVM requirements to either or both cape, or changing trim cape requirements to comp cape (something Jagex has done in the past with POP, I think). I just think since comp cape has been this way for so long (tailored more towards skillers than other aspects of the game), and that this more or less reflects Runescape's current demographics, that if they are going to redefine the comp cape, they need an exceptional reason to do this - which I haven't seen yet.

Well, I am not sure I liked your post for the reason(s) you may have intended. Obviously I interpreted (as any reader does with any text, or in this case post) in ways which you might not have intended, but every reader makes a text his own in some way or another.

LOL As if buying spins wasn't enough "Gain XP at all costs" should be his motto. That's the motto of every single top page player, and the motto for most of the high level community. Nothing shocking there. No need to single out Forsberg in particular. He's simply using every resource at his disposal, which is what everyone does. 'Top page players' dish out money like spinberg and dish out more money on alts for exp boosts? He wouldn't even be the discussion of this thread if he never bought those spins to get him where he is now, who else can I single out? Post some usernames/screenshots like guy0ne has because I don't believe that this is normal or spread out through all top players. Didn't ITrolledU just spend 4.5B on bonds for spins during Prismania, the opening of which he streamed live, and through which he was able to get most of the bonus experience needed for 200M Divination or something? Where's your hate for him? This outrage over top players is totally irrelevant. Everyone has different resources which they use to their advantage. Drumgun, by his own admission plays 17+ hours a day, so he has plenty of time. He uses that to his advantage. Is that fair to people who have to balance RS with school, possibly work, and other stuff? Forsberg has plenty of money, so he uses that to his advantage. ITrolledU has a decent bit of time, lots of money made from PVM, so much so that he can afford to buy the fastest and most expensive methods for any skills, and a lot of Twitch followers/his own clan that helped him with KK for slayer and tagging other tasks at times. ITrolledU even made his own clan so that he could always have an avatar for slayer (something which wasn't allowed in his previous clan). Is that fair to people who don't have those resources? Life is not fair. This moral outrage over players is totally phoney. Extreme competition by definition means that people will use every card in their sleeve to get ahead. Forsberg is not some outlier or extreme offender.

No, after you hit completionist, you can start worrying about ranks, experience points, and 120's. :D

Obtaining a completionist cape is also a very high level and elite activity that only a very few people engage in. That vote was polled by EVERY RS PLAYER, not just PvM'ers and not just completionists. Therefore, those statistics are irrelevant to the issue, unless every player who voted in that poll intends to obtain a completionist cape. Even then, a player's opinion is irrelevant to what is and what is not considered a completionist requirement. This issue only affects a very small minority of the playerbase. Out of the hundreds of thousands of RS players out there, how many of them have completionist capes? Of the players with completionist capes, how many of them are "completely incapable" of ever killing every RS boss, even with hours and hours of practice? Do you see my point yet? >_> The poll is not terribly relevant, but it does reflect what everyone knows to be the case. Most of the players are oriented towards skilling. There's dozen and dozens of Comp (and some Trim) players who don't do PVM at all. They probably could learn given the time, and effort. But the community is by and large a skilling one (even at the high end levels). The comp cape has until recently reflected that (the bulk of the requirements were skills, quests, and certain minigames, and diary requirements). There's nothing wrong with gearing it more towards PVM, but this isn't going to accomplish that. I don't see much point in changing the cape now or redefining it (which is what this requirement is). Also, on a minor note, just as with the Warmonger title, I'd like this title to be somewhat unique and optional (i.e. those of us who like titles or the activities associated with particular titles get them to show our affinity with it because we actually enjoy the content, such as myself). I got the Warmonger title, and the Daemonheim title, not because I was ever going to trim, but because I like DG and that particular title. Similarly, as a PVMer, I will easily get the Reaper title (the reward for killing all bosses once) regardless of whether it is a completionist requirement or not, because I like that sort of stuff. Let people like me get it if we want, and leave the skillers to do whatever they're doing.