qeltar

Common sense.

There is no "best", there are only tradeoffs. You can go for maximum XP, but be prepared for a lot of frustration, and gameplay that is more intense than enjoyable. You can also solo at a leisurely pace, and have the freedom to do what you want, but earn less XP. And then there are the options in between. I think leaving monsters in dead ends is a good "happy medium". I have found that floors where the team tries to leave every non-entirely-mandatory-to-kill monster alive end up being counterproductive and not very much fun. The last time I did it, they skipped all the monsters to "save time" and then spent five minutes fishing and cooking because they had no food. One good option if you are able to swing it, is to find some friends to do floors with.

Sorry, but I think this statement itself is absurd. When Jagex makes something easy, players say they are "devaluing". Now they are also doing it by making something hard? Can't quite grasp how something that is harder to attain has less value. I also think the mindset that you have to "do everything" is absurd. This is a game -- the purpose is to have fun, not drive yourself nuts trying to "finish everything". There is no "requirement" anyway here; "end game" just means "the gameplay done by those who have maxed skills or mostly maxed skills". It doesn't mean the idea is to literally end the game. There's no prize at the end you know. Or as a wise man once said: "The point of a journey is not to arrive".

I don't find this argument convincing. These issues are related to long-term planning and the poor hype jobs associated with trying to market updates to entice players to buy membership. None of that is related to user testing, which is done not at the start of the design/development cycle, but near the end. Agreed. Things are even worse now than they were before. And the reason is an old axiom: bad information is worse than no information. And in a vacuum of information, people make up bad information to fill it. Again -- valid point, but not relevant to the matter at hand. At least, not that I can see. But what exactly are these problems that are so awful? I just don't see them. Everyone is emotionally worked up over things they *think* will be big problems, but are they really? And what about the problems that are caused by lack of proper design and gameplay balance? There have been many exploits related to these, and rollbacks and other hassles. But they don't seem to get as much attention. These issues occur even without information being given out. And they are mostly related to the GE being broken, which is another thing that needs to be addressed. People that generally sign up for a summer-program (ie; students) that start in the player support role play RuneScape, and they do test things before release, not extensively like the actual QA team of course. That's not beta testing. Not even close. What exactly does this mean? 10 minutes of what? I think what Jagex proves on a nearly weekly basis is that 10 minutes of actual RS players using their content could save them hours and hours of kludges and rework. There have been countless updates with obvious design flaws that players have found nearly instantly that Jagex couldn't for one reason or another.

That's utter nonsense. Nearly every software company uses more than in-house testing. Including ones with a lot more at risk than Jagex. Nobody is saying Jagex is crap. Your mindless sycophancy, however, is. This is a discussion by people who like RS and want to improve it. [wagon]-kissing doesn't improve anything.

I dont care how long a player has been playing or their conduct, you still can't trust them. They're not a paid employee so there's no way you can regulate them. False, as a matter of fact. Again, every software company in the known universe finds ways to make this work; there's no reason Jagex can't do the same. And I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why "leaks" would be the end of the world. We used to get them every month, on purpose. Its already been quoted by a jagex Mod about the cost and resourcing implications of doing this type of thing, so what benefit at what cost? They haven't given us any real figures nor even any sort of convincing argument about why they can't do this. It's not like they are hurting for funds. They just go "oh my, that would be so tough!" and everyone falls over themselves in agreement, without any critical thinking being involved whatsoever. The real reason they don't have beta testing is that they are control freaks. They are obssessed with their "surprise" updates, secrecy, little hints and keeping everyone in the dark. And they simply don't care about what all of that nonsense is costing everyone, themselves included.

Uh... no, actually, it isn't "like" that at all. It's a perfectly valid analogy. In both cases, it is a matter of deciding whether you want only people you know taking up your time, or anyone who wants to do so. In fact, it's a lot worse on RS because in the real world, people at least have the decency to respect others' time and privacy. I help people all the time -- but that doesn't mean I am at the world's beck and call. The arrogance is on the part of those who think that they have some sort of claim on my time simply by virtue of noticing that I am online. As for the claims that turning private chat off implies that I'm better than other people? I am. So there. :)

As promised (reposted; original here) Most of the concern about and opposition to the idea of beta testing for RuneScape seems to be based on issues related to Jagexs ability to implement such a program while simultaneously maintaing secrecy about upcoming changes. A lot of players seem to be incredibly worried that implementing a beta program will give those involved in the program an unfair advantage. There also seems to be a general consensus among the anti-beta crowd that Jagex somehow is dealing with a unique set of circumstances here. A thorough discussion of all of these issues would take far more time than I have available at the moment. But I do want to throw out a few points for consideration. While youre not really supposed to number points in an essay, I will put convenience over custom and do so anyway. 1. There is nothing that unique or special about Jagex or RuneScape when it comes to secrecy or security. RuneScape may be a special game, and Jagex a special company, but the design, development and implementation of RS is no different than the process used by hundreds of other companies to make hundreds of other software products. Whatever the issues that are raised, all of these other companies have had to deal with them. And they all have, with very, very few concluding that they had to never implement a beta testing program because of those concerns. 2. Jagex already has ways of ensuring secrecy. This isnt Andrew and Paul Gower in a garage somewhere designing features and updates. Its a company with hundreds of people, and I doubt there is anything either planned or in progress within Jagex that isnt known by dozens of people, including many who are not directly involved. Despite this, real leaks about upcoming features and changes are very rare. Clearly, Jagex already knows how to ensure security in this regard. The obvious response is to then say that its different when you are dealing with players versus employees. To that I say: why is that necessarily so? Sure, employees have something to lose if they violate a confidence, and perhaps more than a regular player ever could. But it is very possible to do the same thing with beta testers: give them a carrot to keep the secrets they have promised, while holding a stick in reserve for those cases where they do not. There is nothing magical that transforms someone from untrustworthy git to saint by virtue of receiving a Jagex paycheck. Most Jagex employees have regular accounts. How does Jagex prevent them from taking unfair advantage? Either they have a way, in which case it can be deployed here as well, or they dont, in which case it obviously doesnt really matter that much. 3. There are already trusted groups of RuneScape players. Would Jagex just pull random people off the street to hire as employees and share private information with? Of course not. And they shouldnt, and neednt, do that with beta testers either. Nobody in favor of beta testing is suggesting they take applications from random players, or that people that Jagex knows nothing about should be allowed to enter such a program. Jagex already has groups of players that they entrust with power and information: player moderators and forum moderators. I believe there is also a forum for maxed out players, where some information is made available to which the average player is not privy. These folks have already proven themselves to have at least a basic level of trustworthiness, or they wouldnt be in their positions. And as reference in point #2, they have something to lose if they dont do as they promise. 4. Risk of disclosure is not a justification for never allowing private information to leave a company. While some players may think that the idea of future updates being leaked would be some sort of unimaginable disaster, in the end it is just a few items changing in price in a game. There are tons of companies that use non-disclosure agreements to protect againt real potential financial loss if secrets are violated: were talking about millions of actual dollars being on the line, not just millions of geepees. If they can find ways to make things work, so can Jagex. 5. The impact of potential leaks is severely overblown. Suppose Jagex implements a beta program, and one bad apple gets into the program and violates confidence. I dont think this would really be the end of the world. Its not so long ago that all updates were telegraphed via a Behind the Scenes posting at the start of every month. This didnt exactly cause any major problems, and in fact, many players wish those announcements would return. A more recent example of deliberate leaking of an upcoming event was the bonus XP weekend. And while that did cause distortions in the market and make a few items difficult to buy or sell for a while, it wasnt the end of the world. 6. Bad updates and quicky fixes can be just as disruptive as leaks. Dont underestimate how badly the market and the game as a whole can get messed up because of poorly-considered updates. The recent positive feedback loop with respect to the jewelry trader is just one of many examples. Avoiding bad design decisions means avoiding these disruptions. 7. Jagex can manage the unfair advantage issue. There are a number of ways that Jagex can minimize the issue of some players getting unfair advantage due to knowledge they have about upcoming items. For example, they could restrict player trading during a beta test period; or they could prevent those who agree to be testers from logging in during the run-up to a release. These players can be monitored and managed as necessary to ensure compliance with policies designed to ensure fairness. Even better, they could just stop with all the secrecy and tell us whats in the pipe. If everyone knows the basic gist of the updates, nobody has an unfair advantage. Picking players who already have achieved so much that they dont need an unfair advantage would also help. I highly doubt that someone with all 99s and a billion gp in the bank is going to risk his/her account and status by violating a pledge of secrecy as part of a beta program. 8. Im more concerned with what I am doing than what others are doing. Even if Jagex did absolutely nothing to prevent beta testers from getting the inside scoop and taking advantage of it, I really wouldnt care all that much. It wouldnt be ideal, but its a small price to pay for a quality product. So there, I said it: I dont really give a fig if a beta tester makes a bit of money on the side. It would be a tiny drop in the bucket, certainly not even close to all of the money made by merchant clans, for example. Insider trading happens in the stock market. Nobody suggests this as a reason to shut down stock trading. The idea that something that would improve the game for everyone should be shot down because of the chance of a few people getting a small advantage for a few days or weeks is short-sighted and silly. 9. The issue is design and balance, not bugs. Opponents of beta-testing keep focusing on bug-fixing, usually saying something like a small number of people wont find bugs any better than Jagexs in-house testers. Trueand irrelevant. Jagex doesnt need players testing releases because of bugs; it needs them because the company consistently puts out releases that need tweaking due to not having properly anticipated how real customers would use them. And finally: 10. We are customers, not children. I find the notion that it is impossible for Jagex to find a small number of real players who are trustworthy enough for a beta testing program highly insulting. We are customers, not little children who cant be trusted with anything. Beta testers should be adults who have already proven that they are reliable and trustworthy, and they should be treated as such. Believe it or not, there really are people out there who place a higher value on their personal ethics and reputation than making a few extra gp in a game.

They actually already do this. Prove it. You always jump into threads with your self-congratulatory "I have insider info" claims -- back it up for a change. What beta testing program does Jagex have? Who is part of it? How is it used? As mentioned earlier, this is not why Jagex needs beta testers.

Just a dry streak. Happens to everyone. Be patient, and use an efficient method so you aren't losing money on the chests that don't have items.

I thought the players rushing through floors 1 to "N" were going on complexity 1 to speed things up even more. I haven't done 5:5 floors yet except for the higher-level ones.

Okay, that's definitely better than doing those floors solo on comp 1. Thanks.

4-8k for all 29 floors? Yikes. Doesn't sound much better than just doing complexity 1 solo for them all, and not any faster. Do people usually do those floors on complexity 1 or 6?

Do you get significantly more XP rushing a low floor in a 5:5 compared to just soloing it? Haven't tried that yet.

The thing with 5:5 floors is that the team has little power while each individual player has a lot. You can threaten to kick someone but you may well be shooting yourself in the foot. Conversely, a single pissed off player can really wreck things for the team. In the best case, this can be used to good advantage to bring wayward players in line. In the worst case, [wagon] players can sabotage the entire floor. I haven't quit on a team yet, but I've been tempted. And I'll do it if I feel it is warranted. The next time I run into a team filled with selfish jerks who refuse to actually act like a team, I'm just leaving.

It's more fun if you find people whose playing style matches yours. Otherwise, it really, REALLY sucks.

Also beware that while there are some smart players on W117, a lot of them just rush through the dungeon floors in a mad hurry to do it as fast as possible. It may be "technically" the best overall XP/hour, but if you are trying to get the most benefit from the deep floors, you can end up leaving a fair bit of XP behind. It's also really not any fun, IMO.

Slimy eel and cave eel, assuming you have the patience to sell them. I know, sounds funny, but, well, there it is. Tuna and swordfish are the best conventional item until you get to monks at 62.

Moderately interesting interview, though it would have been much better if every question hadn't been a softball. (Not that he would have done anything but evade serious questions anyway, but still.)

Life is like a box of chocolates.. and so is picking random players to Dungeoneer with . :)

Some of the top 130+ players I've played with are the worst teammates I can ever imagine for Dungeoneering. I went into a dungeon yesterday and it wasn't a team, it was five people who happened to be on the same floor. While I was making runes to help out with forgottten warriors and to make gatestones to help the team if necessary, they grabbed everything out of the starting room and ran off in different directions. Then, they didn't even kill the damned monsters in the rooms near the starting room, basically leaving me stuck there. Later they finally returned, and it was still every man for himself. I'd kill something and they'd all run up and grab all of the food, even though I used up half of mine killing it. There was no rhyme or reason to anything they did, and despite all the rushing and skipping, it wasn't any faster than doing a floor properly as a team. A very unenjoyable way to play. I very nearly quit the floor on them, but didn't want to do that since it was 5:5. But the next time I run into a group like that, I'm doing my own thing and they can just deal with it.

Unfortunately, it is this way. It's even sillier with low-complexity dungeons, where you get penalized five or six times for the same decision. ;)

The game stupidly penalizes you three or four times for the same omission or inability to do part of the dungeon. If you can't get into part of the floor you lose bonus room percentage, and it also whacks your base XP *and* prestige XP.

Nothing really novel has been raised so far. Every one of these objections/concerns comes up each time the matter of beta testing is discussed. I'll have a more thorough post on this later on. But what it all really boils down to is this: not one of these issues is specific to Jagex. All software companies, and many companies of other types, have to deal with them. So the only way to justify Jagex not having beta testing is if you believe either that Jagex is so special that they simply can't follow the standard practices of the software industry, or Jagex is too incompetent to implement those practices. I don't believe either is true. Also: Jagex's problem is not QA in the sense of finding bugs. In fact, Jagex IMO does an *excellent* job of finding and eliminating obvious bugs. Given the complexity of the software, I consider RuneScape remarkably bug-free. The real issue is feature design, gameplay balance, and having a proper understanding of how their new features will be used, as opposed to how they'd *like* them to be used. This is where Jagex falls on its face with nearly every update. Take Dungeoneering for example. Okay, under some conditions you get a floor with a design layout problem, or an issue with a boss that doesn't appear. Annoying, but rare, and those problems will get fixed. I don't consider that a big issue. And no, a beta testing team would likely not have caught that stuff. What a beta testing team *would* have told Jagex before they released Dungeoneering: 1. "Woah! Cool reward but are you serious, I'd have to play 200 floors to get enough XP to buy that!" 2. "Are you aware that you can just buy rune essence by the boatload and stand here and get a ton of RC XP"? 3. "When people find out you can't resume a solo game, they're going to flip out". 4. "Hey, I noticed I get way more XP per hour just playing on F2P. Was that on purpose?" And so forth. Basically, all the stuff that *any* experienced player would have said within 24 hours of the release of the skill, but that for some reason Jagex never considered. This is what is needed. That users never use software the way software engineers engineer software is almost axiomatic in the industry. Jagex seems to be in utter denial about this, or simply not interested in exploring how to turn it to their advantage.

Yeah, imagine, "hardcore nerds" that would pay 75 dollars for a purely cosmetic item. As opposed to, say "hardcore nerds" who would spend the equivalent of 5 years at a full-time job getting a purely cosmetic mention at the top of a hiscores list.