Iamdan

I only said it because it wasn't directed at pro choicers :???: It gives evidence to my opinion that quite often, pro choice is a safe way to feel morally superior without actually doing anything. Maybe you remember my point about people buying crap they don't need rather than saving lives in 3rd world countries by donating it. Then again, more lives would be saved aborting a child and using the money that would have been spent raising it on 'sponsor a child' programs as a much more cost effective way of 'promoting life' if I may. I'm just trying to point out that 'death is bad' is not as black and white as many people think.

Why? It's a legit question. I'm curious about how many pro lifers value life over their financial well being and time. Just because you don't like your own answer it doesn't mean I have an attitude :huh:

I have a question for pro lifers. Say my girlfriend gets pregnant, and we want to abort it because kids suck. Would any pro lifer adopt the baby to save it's life? Including covering the transport costs.

Daniel Requiredfield a.freakin.rpg.gamer Hit me up ;) *opens facebook* *highlights daniel requiredfield* *thinks for a moment* *facepalms*

I think we're going offtopic. I was saying that humans are no better than animals. Legally they are yes, but that's only because of self interest. Logically we're no better. Also you missed my point about how death is part of our culture and we all contribute to it. Abortion is killing yes, but 'death shouldn't be allowed' is not as black and white as people think. I went into more detail explaining why a few times, I'm sick of repeating myself so if you want to argue this please read what I have to say about it. Idk, I thought it was sarcasm. If you're right he'll probably say so when he reads it. I also accidentally mixed pro choice with pro life when I replied, fixed now. That law came in because bald eagles were endangered. If humans were in danger of being wiped out I sure would be against abortion.

Okay I think this is over. We can talk about morality all we want but if I kill this baby none of you can do anything about it. The law already states a fetus is not a legit human, lets all go home. aaannnnd you've completely missed the point :thumbup: That post wasn't an argument for pro choice, it was an argument saying that an argument against pro life is valid.

Then you're bring the law into a moral debate, which is more off topic than bringing up the morality and logic of putting humans before animals. Legally, a fetus is not a human and doesn't have rights. There is no funeral after a miscarriage or abortion and they are not counted by the census.

[hide=] Looks pretty neutral at the moment, no strong arguments on either side. Hence I'm asking sees_all to present a strong argument for both sides EDIT - Page 16 looks good, might print a few pages of that during break I won't do your work for you, but it should be easy to find the talking points here. I'll put some of the strategies in here for both sides. If the people you're debating are incompetent, you'll be able to "win" the debate regardless of the side they put you on. Common pro-choice strategy include forcing your opponent to defend the "corner" cases - rape, incest, medical "necessities", and the "compassionate" cases - deformities or long term suffering. Your focus needs to be entirely on the woman, paint her as the victim, and marginalize the fact that theres a child within. You can also talk about situations which endanger the life of the mother - such as anemia or ectopic pregnancies. You can also broaden the focus towards a macro view - abortion can "solve" world hunger, poverty, and overpopulation. The more off topic you can pull the debate, the harder it is for the pro-life side to establish their argument. The pro-choice case is weak against a strong personhood argument; if you're on this side you and have to defend against this argument, you need to do the best you can to dehumanize the baby. Never refer to the baby as "baby", he or she, child, human etc. Do the best you can to obfuscate the fact that you're talking about an individual. If it comes to it, you can bring up the fact that the sperm and egg cell already existed before conception, and theres nothing "special" about a one-celled zygote. Don't use that as your original position, more as a last resort, because you'll already be playing into a personhood argument. Also, be careful in your choice of language. If this is a class assignment, I'm unsure how the debate is scored, but don't leave room for your opponent to nail you on the facts - things that can easily be refuted by the simplest of definitions. Your best bet is to use the term fetus, and avoid unscientific terminology or specific terminology. Fetus applies to the entire pregnancy, embryo/zygote/blastocyst only applies to the very start. "Ball of cells" or "Fertilized Egg" are unscientific and are easy enough to refute without much effort. [/hide] Also, I mean I've used this a few times and the only person to contradict me is bonkers who just disagreed with me without providing a reason because 'there is no point.'

I don't think you did. You described it. You haven't pointed out how it differs.

It's legal in australia and in other places, and it should be legal. The law probably came about to help prevent stds, before testing became cheaper and popular, and condoms. Race discrimination wasn't illegal until the population was ready for it. Racism was dying out before the law came in. It used to be legal to kill people for petty crimes. Marijuana was fine until it was illegal, and then everyone thought it was bad. Now the laws are relaxing, it's legal in some places, decriminalized others, and used for medicinal purposes. Now all of a sudden it's more socially accepted. Morals aren't absolute and everyone has different ones. You can do something that somebody else finds morally wrong as long as it's not illegal. Laws are absolute, and everyone in the country must follow them if they agree or not. Just because some people think porn is immoral, that doesn't mean it should be illegal. Laws couldn't possibly be based on morality. The point of laws is to ensure order and safety. Workplace specific rules are like laws, but for the site instead of the country, and they are definitely not based on morality. A new category of traits? It's nothing more than a property. It's part of what defines us. What makes our ability to feel embarrassed special? I can use your logic for any unique trait and it sounds the same.

For 8 hours straight, working quickly with precision and strict deadlines? Though I was using a 10 inch today and it was easy, maybe it's the motor size difference that does it.

Yeah angle grinder. Heavy mother [bleep]er with a 12 inch disk-o-death that will rip out of your hands if it catches anything.

That's actually not what many people think at all. Religious and Atheistic alike recognize we are not the same as animals at all, how we arrived at this state, is what we debate. We're better why? Because of a random property unique to humans? We're no better because we have morals/intelligence/whatever than a fish is because it can breathe underwater. All species will value themselves over others. It's a self interest thing. We [bleep] the earth up and kill each other. If anything, other animals are better than us.

Some laws exist to keep order, others exist because they benefit reach people. None are based on morals, if anything it's the other way around.

Friends/family and the beach.

Liking the 1000/wk at my new job, I'm definitely earning it though. Most of today was using a 12" grinder, and there's a reason why even the little ones are banned at construction sites. They're really heavy, I had to work on unsecured jobs, and 1 slip/catch would have killed me.

People seem to be ignoring the fact that we are no better than every other animal. No humans life is really worth more than the cow they eat, or the cockroach they squash. Death isn't really that big of a deal. It's part of our culture, and everybody contributes to it. Abortion is killing, so [bleep]ing what? Indirectly, so is buying lunch instead of donating it and saving third world families. Life isn't sacred, we aren't special. Human life is a continuous process and aborting a baby every now and then isn't going to doom us all.

I'm putting a days work doing the grinding/forklift driving job I applied for on monday, if I make the grade I get the job :thumbup: Off to the girlfriend's house now, probably going to an old quarry that filled up with water with cliffs to jump off tomorrow. Also probably checking out a [bleep]in' burger joint at south bank that someone wouldn't shut up about today. I also just found out that I'm not a fan of baked cheesecake :-X

Lol Even the best universities in Australia are under 20k for a whole degree, but they don't live on campus like in american movies. It doesn't include books but it includes tutors and computer lab. Then they get a low interest loan from the government, which they pay off through their taxes if/when they earn over a certain amount.

Just applied for a 25-30$/hr job driving a forklift so I got something to do besides well.. partying for the next month before I go to america. Going out tonight and we found someone to drive us :thumbup: It makes me wonder if people being used for their car know and just don't care.

I got my free forklift licence today. I accidentally wore a high vis vest home but I really cbf driving an hour round trip just to drop off a $10 vest. They're literally sugar and caffeine. You might as well have a sweet coffee.

I highly recommend a book about job hunting, interviews etc called 'what colour is your parachute?' Bring your laptop and in some situations, if you don't have work to do while you wait for the interview then pretend you do. It shows your time is valuable. Obviously don't do this for a mcdonalds interview or something.

I have no idea how I would. He doesn't want to hang or anything, and he's already receiving medical help for his depression. I told him about a free forklift course and cert 2 in warehousing, which will easily get him a job earning 20-30$/hr and he doesn't want to do it, even though he wants to work in a factory. I'm considering letting centrelink know he's committing fraud, having to return tax money he doesn't deserve and spends on his computer, junk food and other [cabbage] he doesn't need might force him to pull his [cabbage] together and get a job.

You could switch coke for a mixed fruit juice or something as a nice healthy (as long as you buy the right ones, I suppose) substitute. Juice isn't all that much better.. That's pretty naive. Using a drug doesn't automatically mean you need it to have fun.

Eh, he just went off at me and accused me of trying to get with his girlfriend (also my friend) when I asked her if she wanted to hang and not him. I reminded him that I always used to ask him to hang and he always wanted to stay home and play cod and she always wanted to hang, and that I have a girlfriend.. He got all apologetic and started blaming his anti depressants he is now apparently taking. Love makes people so [bleep]ing stupid :rolleyes: