Obtaurian

I took a short video of this, I can make it into a gif if people want it. Sounds like a good idea for the weekly trivia although they don't seem to want to update that atm for some reason :P Yeah we've been kinda busy with other things lately. :( We're more than open to suggestions for the trivia.

D'OH, you're right. Getting all mixed up. I blame lack of sleep.

What I meant was that you have to trap them either east or west of you.

In a nutshell, side-stepping means using other monsters or players as safespots. If no-one walks on top of a monster/player (this is called trampling), it can be used in such a way. Monsters move east and west first, so side-stepping refers to walking around a monster to trap other monsters behind it. This is extremely useful in GDs, merc rooms, ramo rooms, etc.

And I've repeatedly stated that for keyers, you'd be hexing much more often than that. I completely agree. :) The advantage of an armor bind, however, is that it can save you in situations where death would have been close to unavoidable (a room full of rape, you're running to the door, SUDDENLY TWO DOORS ARE OPENED, dead). A sagi body - just like a plate - will save you an unavoidable death here and there while still contributing to your DPS, hence it's a great bind for hex keyers. Merely stating such does not make it true unless you elaborate. As I said in my first response to you, I have plenty of experience keying in tyranno armor (usually chaps, vambs, and boots). With or without it, I don't get bound often. I'm starting to wonder what your dungeoneering level and binds are, as I can't see how you can be utterly raped by mages while I'm not, and it shouldn't really have anything to do with combat mechanics. Wait, now you're saying that we've been talking about plate versus hex rather than plate + hex versus sagi body + hex? What in the world? Do I really have to quote all of my previous posts at you? And seriously, what are your binds and dungeoneering level? Will edit with more in a bit.

You just completely ignored her post and reasserted your point. Why do you keep doing that? I'll be back later to respond to the rest of your post. Off-hand I think it's funny that you continue to ignore the point that the player we're discussing is primarily a keyer, so the 40/60 rule doesn't apply to them, and I like how you use the "1-99 dg, 100+" thing as if it applies at all when we're talking about fourth binds. Fix those two points before I get back, or I won't have much to say to you. You have yet to disprove any of my points, funny enough.

Well said. To add a little to that, I know that we as a clan have always been very critical of pretty much everyone outside of DGS, but I don't want people to be critical without being constructive or at least being open to learning things from other people/clans. Yes, 3BO has lax rules and is very popular, so they have tons of really bad or lazy dungeoneers, but there's definitely some really good dungeoneers, too, and this is regardless of whether or not they have a plate or a hex. Some of the best dungeoneers in DGS learned from or learned with some of the best from 3BO. There's potential for a mutually beneficial relationship here. Furthermore, and it pains me to have to clarify this once again - our third bind guidelines ("bindlines" - Michael) are for the purpose of learning combat mechanics and intelligent room-clearing to reduce damage and death. The increased DPS is nice, but it's not the main point of interest. We're not against plate binds - we're against lazy dungeoneering. I'd like to remind everyone that one of the huge strengths of DGS is that we as a clan are always trying to improve, so don't rule things out if they can help you improve your floor times and your team's exp/h, and don't make excuses for yourself or other people (ie, people saying Toad is only good because he suicides, which isn't true at all).

LOL, that's beautiful. I wonder FMing with a BA horn compares to FMing with a pyrelord + horn. Great find, though.

I agree with that, but he didn't specifically state that he wanted a solely defensive bind, hence this discussion. Once again you would use your hex about 40% of the time if you're DPSing and much more if you're keying. The blood neck effect is mostly useless while you're hexing, so that cuts down on the DPS increase by a significant amount, especially if you're the keyer. As previously stated, a sagittarian body is a nice medium between an offensive and defensive bind for a keyer. As it so happens, occults and warpeds have a lot of hexable monsters and bosses, and abnds have very hexable bosses. The advantage of a platebody over a sagi body is ranged defense, but at the cost of a great deal of DPS. Melee monsters can be side-stepped most of the time, and a sagi body only has slightly less crush def than a plate. Hexhunter bows are pretty inaccurate, so the +22 ranged attack of the body over the blood neck is very significant. In terms of melee offense, a blood neck is obviously superior, but as a keyer you're not going to be melee'ing very much. I've already countered this in my previous post. You just ignored it and reasserted your point. I have a hex. Mages don't last long enough for me to need to have to tank a ranger for any length of time. Thus, I'd usually opt to pray ranged, saving me some food. And just FYI, t11 rangers rape everything, regardless of defense. It's definitely situational, though. I'm very, very aware of how to make ranged armor loss-less; DGS invented it, after all. How often do you return to a path, and do you have time to spare to skin a dino when you should be running to your door(s)? Again, it's incredibly situational, and not usually worth making except on Kal'Ger floors or if you've already procured ragers and don't have a path to run or a GD/puzzle to do. As previously stated, it would not be worth making most of the time. Also, you should never make melee armor for Kal'Ger. That's a huge waste of time when ranged armor is way easier and faster to make (buy protoleather from the shop). Once again I deem this untrue. Lol'd. I would disagree with your argument for reasons stated above. What about when you want both defense and offense as a hex keyer, which is exactly what a sagittarian body is tailor-made for? Once again, I disagree. ALL THAT SAID, I plan on binding a sagittarian body at 120 (hood + primal 2h + hex + sagi body) until I find a blood neck, at which point I'll switch out my body for the neck and my 2h for a battleaxe and try it out for around 10-20m exp. I'm definitely not against binding a blood neck, but I key very often and a little extra defense with a non-trivial gain in hex DPS would cater to my needs very nicely. I could bind a plate, but that would be useless when I decide to carry/wingman in a floor. My personal philosophy is that your third bind should increase your offense and your fourth bind should cater to your specific needs as a dungeoneer. DGS is one big permanent team. This guide was written for members of DGS, specifically (though it'll be useful to anyone with an offensive third bind). I would agree with you if I used 148 or 3BO.

Speaking purely in terms of DGS, my thoughts are: - It's not Daemonheim, so I can't see this being a hangout spot for DGS. - If non-recruits can't join, I'll be mad - we have a lot of members who are in other clans. - I think all of DGS will be in our citadel for like a week just to check it out, and that'll be kinda cool, but I can see it being abandoned quickly. Still, I hope they do this right. It has potential to be cool.

You do the same thing without a defensive bind. I don't see the problem. That said, mages always unhood before they attack, and by that time you should already be most of the way through the room, if not out of sight of the mage altogether. I have extensive experience keying in ranged armor (thanks to Michael and Green Rect), and I've very rarely been bound, with or without it. You're overestimating mages. Hex users should be ranging around 40% of the time (assuming occult/warped floors), and a sagittarian body allows a hex to be used in some situations where it normally wouldn't, or wouldn't without some other form of boosting, like potions (ie, skeleton mages, blink, gravecreeper). The increased accuracy is very non-trivial, especially for keyers with hexes, as they use ranged much more often than melee, and most bosses can be hexed. That said, I think a blood neck is potentially better for hex users who primarily DPS/carry/wingman. It's really a case-by-case thing. Sagittarian bodies make shades much less dangerous and definitely make most mages less harmful. You're underestimating the defense. Making ranged armor is very situational. You really can't expect to have it most floors. Completely irrelevant, as you'd never make melee armor anyway. I deem this untrue. If you want both an offensive and a defensive bind, you have a hex, and you key often, bind a sagittarian body.

This. Primal rapiers are not good as primary weapons.

Most people spend way too much time in the start room, which is a huge mistake. At the very most, grab one item off the start table so you can buy a toolkit and immediately start opening doors and running paths. Your priority is to open the floor up for the keyer, and as soon as there are no GDs, go make your runes so you can continue running paths. It especially bothers me when people with high totals are chillin' in the start room making runes, 'cause they're usually the only ones who can open the floor up for the keyer (assuming the keyer isn't maxed or doesn't have the highest total).

Double-post, but Maxx1m is now a wingdude. Our second unranked wingdude, actually. @@@@

You should really only ever make two to three ragers and one set of scrolls.

oh u

D'oh, you're absolutely right. Changing it now. :thumbup:

The day you started dungeoneering you looked at the list, memorized it, and you've been golden ever since? I'm genuinely impressed. For those of us without eidetic memories, however, I still recommend putting the list in your in-game notepad till it's memorized. EDIT: Here's mine. I tried to make it as simple as possible. It's color-coded. [bleep] YEAH, COLORS@@@

1. Lol this thread again. 2. Lol addicted to Runescape. 3. Lol moderation, what even is that?

To add to what Moon said, memorizing the ingredients for every useful potion takes time. While people are learning them, they should keep a list at hand. I can tell you how to make any potion by memory, but it took time, and my notes section was immensely useful in getting to that point. This all seems fairly obvious to me, so I'm unsure of why you'd make such a suggestion. Was it not or is it not obvious to you, too?

To clarify, the goal of DGS is not and was never to maximize speed, as that would be very inefficient for the vast majority of our members. By 'proper' he means 'good', and he's implying that good dungeoneering should be the standard (ie, knowing combat mechanics and utilizing them to avoid damage rather than Rambo'ing everything). The point of being forced to use an offensive third bind is that it essentially forces one to learn how to not die. The increase in DPS helps, of course, but that's just frosting.

When it comes to monster weaknesses and DPS, personal experience is useless unless there's data to back it up.

Slight revision to the keyer section of the guidelines. If you're interested in being a keyer, you may apply on Grimy's forum rather than the clan page. I've also updated (almost) everyone's names on the ranks lists. STOP CHANGING YOUR NAMES @@@@@@@@

Hahahaahahahaha

He's banned from TIF. You can find the information on the forum-that-must-not-be-named.