magzar

yeh that's why i said 128 max and walka you're still missing the point i would never accumulate 30m worth of junk i would liquidate the junk as i made it to minimize the loss of value through selling to general stores and yes i would still sell that item on the g.e. because that way it would make me a profit i know people won't buy the junk items but say you're fletching maple longbows(u) you fletch a load and sell it to a general store, and repeat or to further minimize loss you fletch a load sell it at the general store fletch another load and sell it to another store i know this would slow things down a lot but if people are "clever" enough to come up with things luke junk trading and the tzhaar transfer trick i'm pretty sure they could find ways to minimize loss through selling to general stores such as world hopping selling to different stores etc.

So you decide to just ignore my answer? Anyway, you fail to see that there is no point in having 100M in monetary value, if 80M of that vlue is things that people never buy. And please tell me the tricks to buy an item at mid, that you cant even get for max, with an offer in for days, hell, even weeks. oh no i totally see that having 80m in junk has no practical use which is why i say don't accumulate 80m in junk liquidate it for the coins and the trick is if people used the g.e. ;) then buying and selling on it would be, if not quite a breeze, at least easily feasible you have to realize that i'm not saying that it's easy to do now i'm presenting the possible outcome of people switching from using junk, to using the g.e. i mean surely you can see how much more profitable it would be if everyone bought and sold on the g.e. right? i'm well aware you would lose a bit of money selling junk to general stores, but it's not like people don't already know that skilling costs money, but i mean really if maple long(u) is 144 on the g.e. and 128 max in a general store it's not really that much of a difference(do you bother picking up gold from monsters that drop as little as 16 gold at a time) and if you cut the logs yourself then you're still showing positive gain overall(though there is a drop in net worth due to having to sell below market value) all in all in a world where people used the g.e. it would be far better to liquidate junk and buy and sell rares on the g.e. far far far far far more profit potential

Err....thats.. what.. did... happen? :-# Or did I just totally misinterpret the entire ghostly robes miniquest.... those were the people responsible for the staff coming to zamorak i meant zamorak himself and the other humans/mahjarrat who turned on Zaros sorry i should have made that more clear

James You're not making extra money you're trading goods for their exact value You have no increase in bank value and so therefore no profit if you sold it at 13m on the grand exchange(max price) you increase your bank value by 650k that's 650k profit instead of just exchanging one ting for it's equivalent of another

oh ok i wasn't positive about that so it's more like zammy vs bandos vs sara and arma? either way the way i see it is if as a mortal Zamorak had been able to stand toe to to with Zaros(the god all other gods, save Guthix, feared) then once his power was heightened by being infused with some of Zaros's power he should have been able to easily mop the floor with the other Gods, possibly even able to rival Guthix himself. In the end though he did not have that capability, He was able to hold his own against Zaros momentarily, but even with the staff of armadyl impaled through him Zaros was beating Zamorak down. If Zamorak hadn't impaled himself onto the staff with Zaros, he would have lost, Zaros would have ripped out the staff and used it to increase his own power, and the conspirators would all have either been killed or cursed so horribly that they would pray for death.

I completely agree with almost everything you said soma The one thing that i think people don't understand is that even though they disagree with the prices set on the g.e., these are the prices they are forces to use for items whether they like it or not so when they sell their junk it is worth the price they sell it for, not their conceived price of the item. So their profit is in real world value, and not in monetary gain.(an increase in your overall net worth, net worth being the total value of your bank) The only profit you can possibly make in trading rares player to player, even alone is 60k. All in all, the higher the value, the more profitable it becomes to trade it via the grand exchange in comparison to player to player trading due to the wider range of possible prices. The reason behind this is because player to player trading does not allow the player to buy or sell at that 5% above or below. By this reasoning, Any item with a cost who's 5% range comes out to above 60k should be sold on the grand exchange if the player wants to make a monetary profit as opposed to a real world profit. Also considering most players say that junk is overpriced, then why are they loathe to sell it to general stores for more than they think it is worth? this would allow them to liquidate their junk, for a decent amount of coins instead of using it in a faulty trade system. overall it comes back to an example like this. item GE price = 20m item street price = 100m selling item with 80m of junk yields a huge real world profit obviously due to the fact you now have coins that you can actually use however you do not increase your bank value and therefore do not make a monetary profit but if you acquired this item by luck and sold it on the grand exchange, 5% of 20m is 1m so selling this item on the GE gains a real world profit of 21m, and a monetary profit of 1m if you then bought another at median price or lower and sold it back at max, you again make monetary profit even though you are using ge prices that most people consider to be far off. In this sense a player does not lose money as is commonly thought, by trading their rares on the GE, instead they have the potential to make millions. The difference now is that they have to find another way to rid themselves of junk. Personally i am far more interested in large increases in my total bank value than I am in trading in my junk for coins and even at the underpriced values of the GE it is still not only possible to make large profits, but with patience and a little luck, guaranteed.

Oh the list goes on... And your ignorance astounds me. Every time we present a logical argument you resort to mudslinging and fail to comprehend any of the logic that we're trying to tell you. You bring back the same, irrelevant points in which you relate RS economics with real life economy. RS Economy =/= Real World Economy The price of items are dictated by Jagex. I'll leave you to infer what that means and to squabble ignorantly with the rest of the people who try to impose an understanding upon you. economy is economy you nitwit it's based on mathematical laws it doesn't matter if it's real life or a game runescape doesn't have a some new obscure form of math that makes things different than the real world i have repeatedly posted mathematical figures, and even a god damn scientifically proven profit formula to back up my argument yours is "that the real world value is what matters not the monetary value" well [cabbage] sherlock thanks you've deduced that you use a highly unstable verbally agreed upon price rather than the price set in the g.e. which represents the only value you can trade that item it, junk or no junk it's always going to be x price for the item + y price for the junk so thanks for that remind me to tell the IRS that my car's real world value is $14 because i think that's what it should be worth and it's the car company who has it wrong i can't wait to hear their response or another of your brilliant assertions junk is worth nothing this doesn't even make sense how can it be worth nothing and millions at the same time and why do i have to exchange millions in coins for it exactly? of course this cycles back to the above where you assert in economics it's the real world value that matters and not the monetary value funny considering economics deals predominantly in money and the exchange thereof, and that monetary literally means in relation to money by the way real world value is a stupid [bleep]ing term the real world value is the g.e. price which is there for everyone to see, plain as day posted on the RS website who own all rights to runescape and can set prices as they damn well please funny how they're wrong about their own intellectual property and a bunch of whiny kids are right i mean come on your arguments are not based in any form of scientific or mathematical fact at least the guy who suggested the relation to fiat money took the time to do reasearch and learn a few things i love how you leave off with the prices are dictated by jagex which would mean you agree that they have the right to choose the prices of items in which case i think you may be confused about which side you're on anyway show me some math that proves your point the way i have repeatedly done for you and we'll be good to go i know it's tough on a 7th grade level to understand all these numbers and figures and equations and analogies and HYPOTHETICAL SITUATIONS i can't stress that part enough hypothetical, you'd think it was an alien concept considering the fact that any hypothetical statement i made was met with "Nuh uh noob no1 iz guna do taht" or the equivalent thereof anyway let me make this absolutely, undeniably, and indisputably clear. ok ready? Economy, whether it be in a game, in the real world, or otherwise, must always follow certain mathematical laws the laws of profit, interest, inflation, supply and demand, etc. these function in any setting and can not be circumvented by any means this is due to the fact that you can not circumvent math which is what you're basically telling me you're not telling me i'm wrong you're telling me math is wrong and sorry sirs but math is never wrong

Quite a fallacious argument. Your whole post is irrelevant to what I've just outlined. Gross profit is dictated by the amount of sales subtracted by the cost of everything in total, which would give you the amount in which you have profited. Source: http://www.investorwords.com/2249/gross_profit.html I fail to see how the cost of sale goods = actual monetary value of the goods. Did I miss something here? Bringing unsupported pictures with irrelevant formulas does not help your case. Bringing it all together you ignorantly announce your victory of a debate in which, you constantly seem to spew out fallacious arguments which in reality stand no ground. Bringing a formula into your argument would surely help, but not when you don't even know when to apply it. Oh and by the way, This is where your whole argument falls apart. You cannot go by the items monetary value because like the GE, the item is flawed. Jagex has not fixed the price of the item yet, so you cannot even come close to thinking that the price that Jagex assigns to that item is an accurate reflection of it. Until Jagex fixes items such as 3rd age and some specific rares, then junk trading will exist whether you like it or not. oh my god are you [bleep]ing [cabbage]ting me economics = money = monetary value real world value has NO PLACE IN ECONOMICS and you hurt your argument by bringing up cost of manufacture and such things as these are factors which subtract from profit so ok let's go with it sales - cost of goods sold - (amount of items(manufacture cost x time to manufacture one itemx cost of raw materials to manufacture one item) = real profit that is so much better than my simplified gross profit formula which if you understood what gross meant you would see you just made yourself look like an imbecile you can not use the players ideas of what an item should cost in a trade in which the costs are fixed you must use its set market value to determine it's cost you're a flat out idiot for saying when you're trying to determine how much money you're making you don't use the monetary value that's not only ridiculous it's completely contradictory and i'm now pretty sure you have the IQ of a cabbage i wish i could have you talk to my grandpa who has been an accountant for the past i dunno 40 years he could also tell you you're an idiot walka the reason for using the g.e. to sell rares is because you can sell them above market price by more than 60k like you said with junk you're just exchanging an item for it's exact value so you're not making an actual profit you're just transferring between having that 60m in goods and 60m in coins coins are more useful but they have the same value overall so you do what you choose i'll sell my rares in the g.e. for profit and encourage people with a sound understanding of economics to do the same

The fact that is has no use or application of the item does matter. If you're reduced to selling the item to a general store for a drastically lowered fraction of it's GE value then you're playing the victim here. Why sell an item to the general store for 3 gp each when you can use it to fill in trades for 150+ gp each? selling it to general stores because players won't buy it does lose you money unfortunately but since players won't buy it there's not much choice By that logic whips should be 72k, not it's GE value of 1.5M. um no..... monetary value = market value = g.e. value therefore a whip's monetary value is 1.5m...... i'm really not sure where you came up with this Referring to my post above, junk is called junk because you guessed it, it's JUNK! No one is going to be "willing" the buy you're item if it has no use whatsoever, and it's price is inflated because of constant junk trading. You can't assume that someone is going to buy it just because it has a GE value of 50M, the fact stands that NO ONE is going to buy 50M worth of Addy Javelins at market price. hypothetical situation, if you could find someone to buy it it would still be worth 50m you can't find anyone to buy it but it's still worth 50m if you try to trade it by itself without a rare you have to pay how much? oh yeh 50m if it had no monetary value you could trade it for free That's the point of junk. When items are restricted by it's GE price you use obsolete items that no one uses in order to fill in the gap. Perhaps your thinking is distorted to what is/what isn't junk, because there are only a few items out there which I truly consider true junk. what is and isn't junk doesn't matter you're still trading your rare at market price, but you're also trading the junk at it's market price so going from my formula earlier sales(60m) - cost of goods sold(60m) = profit (0) You're losing money that way, by not using your junk to reach a desired price. again look at the formula selling an item for above its market price provides profit whether it's a bucket or a partyhat the same rules apply I'm pretty sure the majority of people don't go and junk hunt. I for myself find junk as a byproduct of certain skills, when items are deemed unsellable by the GE. No one is going to buy junk off the GE for median price, let alone minimum price. And it is done in player to player trading, why do you think that junk trading is so prevalent in the rare community? it's prevalent because the majority of the player base doesn't have the maturity and education to understand economics i'm sorry but young teens trying to come up with complicated work-arounds for the g.e. is doomed to failure players noticed they could add things in and get the amount of coins they wanted what they didn't realize is that the weren't actually profiting on the rare they were just selling a rare at g.e. prices and all their junk It does constitute a profit because the GE value that is assigned to the junk is merely fictitious; it's a representation of the flawed system that Jagex puts on some items. Players like I use this flaw not to go through illicit trades, but to receive value for my items which I feel deserve more. you have it backwards g.e. value is a concrete measurable value set for an item it is a tangible amount real world value is a common agreement on what people believe an item should be worth real world value is fictitious and again profit formula proves that you are not receiving more You cannot compare real life economics to the economics of Runescape. It is a bad move on your part, and probably the worst analogy you have chosen. If you would like me to point out the flaws of this paragraph I'd be happy to do so, but it pretty much speaks for itself. yes you can infamous the mathematics behind economics can not be changed economics are economics regardless of the settings unless runescape comes up with new mathematical formula's to determine the economics of runescape then they are equivalent dream reaper the 30kg of pure gold has a monetary value most countries use gold bouillion paper money and coins have no actual value they are a representation of a percentage of the country's total holding in gold or other precious commodities hence why the value of currency can change when you pick up the gold you have made the profit of what it's worth that's why people invest in gold stock the price of gold is constant they keep the gold and their net worth represents its monetary value and when they need the money they sell the gold stock and use the money that is representative of it

by the way i do understand your standpoints they're completely sound if you're measuring your profit in real world value 50m coins is much more useful than 50m worth of maple longs however your arguments don't stand up economically and since it's about making money the economics are what matter anyway here's the end to your argument sales is the price at which you sell your goods cost of goods sold is the actual monetary value of those goods so profit = sale price - monetary value then you divide it by sale price if you want to get the percentage of profit that's the profit formula you can argue with me all you want you can't argue with a mathematical formula i'm sorry but you have lost this debate infamous that's its real world value you have to go by it's market or monetary value even though it has no demand or use it still has a monetary value and that monetary value is what you use to determine profit

walka no offense but you haven't got a damn clue what you're talking about the junk has a monetary value you could go sell it to general stores for coins the fact it has no real world value or application DOES NOT MATTER ECONOMICALLY when determining profit you use an item's monetary value not its real world value if you have 50m worth of junk, you can trade it for 50m worth of coins (if someone is willing) therefore that junk is worth 50m in monetary value and so selling 50m worth of junk and a 10m rare gets you 60m when either of the sole parts could be traded for their respective MONETARY value so you are NOT making 50m profit you are not making ANY profit(outside that magical 60k) but when you put that rare in the ge for more than it's median value you are profiting every coin above that median and if junk trading didn't exist and everyone used the G.E. then this would be easily accomplished because the market would be on the g.e. allowing you to buy and sell much more quickly without all the time spent gathering junk if you do gather junk, then you profit from every piece you pick up, but you have to, from there, sell it for above it's median price to make any more profit from it which CAN NOT BE DONE in player to player trading how many times do i have to tell you trading useless items for their monetary equivalent may be smart in terms of having something you can use rather than junk but it does not in any way shape or fashion constitute a profit and acenator you defeated your own argument by the repeated use of the word monetary you are equating profit to this Monetary value - real world value = profit which isn't the case by picking up the items you gain their net worth in monetary value and to profit monetarily (if you didn't understand that monetary profit is what we were talking about here) the equation is Selling price - Monetary value = profit real world value has no place in economics beanie babies have no real world value or use yet people spent thousands of dollars on them thereby proving that monetary value is not equal to real world value or in runescape terms party hats have no real world value their only use is as a status symbol yet people pay hundreds of millions for them you have to produce a monetary gain to earn a monetary profit yes you are profiting in the sense that you now have something useful as opposed to junk no you are not making extra money for your junk

That's true. But adjusting prices is only half the battle. Consider if the items that are considered "junk" could be converted to gold, and the player sought to buy a rare on the GE. That trade becomes possible, and the item starts to move. The way I see it, adjusting prices is honestly like fighting fire with a cup of coffee. Not so bad for a small hotspot; horrible if you've got a forest fire. +1 even with prices far below street price the g.e, has the potential for profit i really wish jagex would bring in an economist to explain this to the players picking up and amassing junk = profit due to increase in total net worth selling it with a rare for its median price = no profit due to neutral turnover rate the moral of this story is don't take economics advice from 13 year olds on runescape real world value =/= monetary value and monetary value is what matters when trading

Well..It's been a couple of years since I read them, but basically he's saying God's have no limits like mortals do. so basically their combat level would be infinity. It's the last God letter. You're reading that in the wrong context he didn't say his power is infinite he said it isn't quantifiable in the way mortals skills and abilities are he does not say gods are unlimited simply they are not limited IN THE WAY MORTALS ARE their limits are different otherwise one could simply, on a whim, erase the others from existence

this is where you're wrong. the GE is NOT right. true, junking stops people selling expensive items on ge because people are willing to pay more when there is junk, because noone sells on the ge because IT IS TOO LOW. as for the point you made about buying junk from other players, that is a redundant point. noone really buys junk from players; they arent that stupid. what they do normally, is either do slayer, godwars, camp at some monsters etc.... for whips, hilts, or whatever that monster drops, and picks up everything they know has a high ge price. they are nomrlally not after the junk itself but the good items. the junk is just incase they need it later. when you do pick up the junk, however, it is not yet profit. you wont use it, you cant sell it [yet] and therefore it is not profit because you get no cash for it. it becomes the profit once you add it to the trae. you took no extra time to get junk, it was gained while looking for another item. time is money, and they wasted no time getting the junk so they wasted no money the last point you made about buyingj unk in small amounts to junk an item, and the dif between min and max is 1m, why junk for 120k when you can buy min and sell max. the fundemental problem is that if an item is ever junked you wont get it min ge unless you have an offer in within about 5 seconds of a ge update, when its price changes. even then you still wont get it unless noone else offers max, because the item will always go on highest offers; if you have the highest offer but its not the earliest offer you wont get it. your arguament there is redundant yes, that may be true, but that is because, as i said, the ge price is wrong the only way people can get around it is with junking. let me put it this way. if you had gotten a good drop/clue reward before trade restrictions, would you sell it cheap just because you dont wana be super rich, or would you want to take the highest offer you're given for it? only an idiot would say sell cheap the dragon claws rising isnt simply because of cs'd claws. very few people duo td's with coinshare, they use simple lootshare instead because ge price is so off, using cs loses them potential money. the reason that claws rose is because jagex is [most likely] intervening to get the price at a good level. theyve done it before. they are doing it slowly because they dont want to overshoot and make the more expensive than they really are. they artificially boosted item prices before, ya know.this isnt unknown walka please read the word i bolded i said i don't believe the G.E. is right and onward profit Definition The positive gain from an investment or business operation after subtracting for all expenses. opposite of loss. selling a product for exactly its median market value does not constitute profit for instance say you have 5000 yo-yo's that have a median value of $1 each your total net worth is $5000 though it's in product rather than money in order to profit you don't sell those yo-yo's for $1 each you raise the price to $1.50 and sell them thereby gaining you a profit of $2500 due to the fact that junk is sold at it's median market price, it does not increase your net worth and therefore does not generate a profit now back to the example from earlier say you come across a rare that has a median market price of 10m although player demand 50m including junk for it you can either spend weeks gathering 40m worth of junk and in the end have the exact same net worth(only now in shiny gold coins) or you can put it on the g.e. for max and make a profit of 500k you then buy it back at min for 9.5 m making your net worth now be 10.5m in 4 hours you have made a 1m profit say you continue this process for awhile(assume rare items buy and sell immediately which i know they don't this is a hypothetical analysis) this earns you 500k every 4 hours in 76 hours you will have successfully doubled your net worth 76 hours for a 10m profit or weeks for no profit what sounds better? on your first point, i guess i just misread. tyring to watch simpsons while arguing can cause you to miss things anyway your fatal flaw in that argument, is that you ASSUME if i sold claws on ge for anyprice, that i could buy them back 4 hours later. it would be pretty much impssible to buy the claws back from the ge, EVER, at minimum. there is simply so much demand only the people who get offers in just after the ge updates, and offer at max, will ever get them and you say i make no profit from gather junk. are [bleep] [bleep] stoned? or are you just stupid. its still maknig a profit. they have a value to the ge, and i would in theory use them junk up my claws. how can they not be a profit? because i spend time collecting them? in that case the profit is simply measured in gp/hour. or is it because with junk, the time is spent trying to make the item tradeable via junking, and it is no profit because if i see claws as 50m, i must spend hours and hours getting the junk, which is hours wasted because im simply trying to trade them not make extra money? most likely that, but i instead am simply going to wait till they reach a good price on the ge; they are going up every day. they'll reach a good price someday and ill sell. no time wasted, no money lost, only gained, while i have fun with my claws and lend them when i do come across a bit of junk, using junk to make extra cash but im probably rambling. and i cant be bothered arguing with you anymore. its like shouting at a brick wall. completley devoid of thought and just wont move unless you hit it with a sledge hammer walka profit is defined as an increase in net worth selling an item for it's median price doesn't make a profit, you exchange one medium for another, yet what you have is still worth the same price, and waiting for the price on the g.e doesn't change that either, selling claws worth 10m ge price with 40m in junk is the same as selling claws at 25m ge price with 25m junk you're not making a "net gain" you are simply exchanging goods for exactly their net value in order to make a profit, you must sell items for above their net value which is only a possible gain of 60k in player to player trading and i realize that this is a hypothetical situation because no one uses the g.e. this situation is assuming everyone did and working on ideal conditions, i am fully aware it will NEVER run this smoothly the flaw in your argument is you're thinking that selling the items you gathered constitutes profit take an economics course except the gaining of junk in the first place, isnt a profit? i would have thought gaining something= profit. and if you are fully aware the situation would never run smoothly,THEN WHY DO IT. it is simply stupid if you get a dragon claw drops [still using this example because 1, i did get one, and 2, this is our main example], and already have 30m in junk from say, fletching or monster drops, and automatically sell the claws+junk for 40m, you pretty much already made 40m because the junk has no real value but the claws do. junk has no value, hence the title junk. IN AN IDEAL WORLD there would be no need for junk because the ge would be at the right price. you can either accept that, or shut the hell up about it, let people junk trade and simply stay to items you can afford and dont require junk, or try to get them all as drops yourself. people have a right to charge what ever they want for their own items, because its their. why do you even care about whether those people use some junk left over from activities to get a good price for the item they worked hard for? @mako. just because its not sold doesnt mean the price wont change. jagex can and has in the past changed prices manually to get things moving on certain items. claws move because of jagex helping it, and also a small number of cs'd claws. they arent completley blinded to the problems yes walka the inital picking up of the junk is profit, you hit that on the head, however the practice of trading it in for coins isn't profit it's like trading in pennies for dollar bills, you're getting something more useful, but you're not making a profit so are you going to pick up every penny you see so that you can sell your xbox for $1000 along with $800 worth of pennies? and it would run smoothly if people used the GE merchants do it constantly with items that are traded on the GE and wrong the junk is still worth 30m just because something is useless doesn't mean it has no value there is NO NEED FOR JUNK!!!! period it does not make a profit in any sense

this is where you're wrong. the GE is NOT right. true, junking stops people selling expensive items on ge because people are willing to pay more when there is junk, because noone sells on the ge because IT IS TOO LOW. as for the point you made about buying junk from other players, that is a redundant point. noone really buys junk from players; they arent that stupid. what they do normally, is either do slayer, godwars, camp at some monsters etc.... for whips, hilts, or whatever that monster drops, and picks up everything they know has a high ge price. they are nomrlally not after the junk itself but the good items. the junk is just incase they need it later. when you do pick up the junk, however, it is not yet profit. you wont use it, you cant sell it [yet] and therefore it is not profit because you get no cash for it. it becomes the profit once you add it to the trae. you took no extra time to get junk, it was gained while looking for another item. time is money, and they wasted no time getting the junk so they wasted no money the last point you made about buyingj unk in small amounts to junk an item, and the dif between min and max is 1m, why junk for 120k when you can buy min and sell max. the fundemental problem is that if an item is ever junked you wont get it min ge unless you have an offer in within about 5 seconds of a ge update, when its price changes. even then you still wont get it unless noone else offers max, because the item will always go on highest offers; if you have the highest offer but its not the earliest offer you wont get it. your arguament there is redundant yes, that may be true, but that is because, as i said, the ge price is wrong the only way people can get around it is with junking. let me put it this way. if you had gotten a good drop/clue reward before trade restrictions, would you sell it cheap just because you dont wana be super rich, or would you want to take the highest offer you're given for it? only an idiot would say sell cheap the dragon claws rising isnt simply because of cs'd claws. very few people duo td's with coinshare, they use simple lootshare instead because ge price is so off, using cs loses them potential money. the reason that claws rose is because jagex is [most likely] intervening to get the price at a good level. theyve done it before. they are doing it slowly because they dont want to overshoot and make the more expensive than they really are. they artificially boosted item prices before, ya know.this isnt unknown[/hide] walka please read the word i underlined i said i don't believe the G.E. is right and onward profit Definition The positive gain from an investment or business operation after subtracting for all expenses. opposite of loss. selling a product for exactly its median market value does not constitute profit for instance say you have 5000 yo-yo's that have a median value of $1 each your total net worth is $5000 though it's in product rather than money in order to profit you don't sell those yo-yo's for $1 each you raise the price to $1.50 and sell them thereby gaining you a profit of $2500 due to the fact that junk is sold at it's median market price, it does not increase your net worth and therefore does not generate a profit now back to the example from earlier say you come across a rare that has a median market price of 10m although player demand 50m including junk for it you can either spend weeks gathering 40m worth of junk and in the end have the exact same net worth(only now in shiny gold coins) or you can put it on the g.e. for max and make a profit of 500k you then buy it back at min for 9.5 m making your net worth now be 10.5m in 4 hours you have made a 1m profit say you continue this process for awhile(assume rare items buy and sell immediately which i know they don't this is a hypothetical analysis) this earns you 500k every 4 hours in 76 hours you will have successfully doubled your net worth 76 hours for a 10m profit or weeks for no profit what sounds better? also before trade restrictions i would have sold it for whatever i could get, but that would have been pure profit Edit: if anyone can successfully, and through logic prove me wrong economically i will drop this topic altogether Your examples suck, sorry. The point of junk is that you get it through trades made in the past. No-one selling an item tries to get tons of junk so that they sell their items for higher prices. The sellers already have junk because they're merchants, and they buy junk with items. Also, your method of making 10m profit every 76 hours is incredibly impossible. As you said, super rare items don't sell at max (or mind every hour. Try putting an offer at max for Dragon Claws in 2 minutes after the GE updates. You won't have a pair of Claws without some serious luck. And of course, since you bought it for max, you're not making any money if you sell it to people. *facepalm* erk with the exception of items that alch for more than their ge value it is impossible to make a "NET GAIN" of more than 60k in a player to player trade trading junk for it's equivalent value in gold = "0 NET GAIN"!!!!! or in layman's terms 0 profit you only profit if the money you get is higher than the net value of what you sell thereby increasing your net worth here you have a pile of broken shovels they're worth $5 in scrap metal each and you have 100 of them you also have a lump of pure silver worth $50 on the market but you believe it should be worth $100 you sell them together for $550 profit = $0 you have a lump of silver worth $50 you sell it at 5% inflation ($2.50) which comes out to $52.50 profit = $2.50 no matter how far off the G.E. is you still make more profit using it than ever would be possible by junking seriously go to an economics teacher and talk to them about this they'll tell you exactly what i am

this is where you're wrong. the GE is NOT right. true, junking stops people selling expensive items on ge because people are willing to pay more when there is junk, because noone sells on the ge because IT IS TOO LOW. as for the point you made about buying junk from other players, that is a redundant point. noone really buys junk from players; they arent that stupid. what they do normally, is either do slayer, godwars, camp at some monsters etc.... for whips, hilts, or whatever that monster drops, and picks up everything they know has a high ge price. they are nomrlally not after the junk itself but the good items. the junk is just incase they need it later. when you do pick up the junk, however, it is not yet profit. you wont use it, you cant sell it [yet] and therefore it is not profit because you get no cash for it. it becomes the profit once you add it to the trae. you took no extra time to get junk, it was gained while looking for another item. time is money, and they wasted no time getting the junk so they wasted no money the last point you made about buyingj unk in small amounts to junk an item, and the dif between min and max is 1m, why junk for 120k when you can buy min and sell max. the fundemental problem is that if an item is ever junked you wont get it min ge unless you have an offer in within about 5 seconds of a ge update, when its price changes. even then you still wont get it unless noone else offers max, because the item will always go on highest offers; if you have the highest offer but its not the earliest offer you wont get it. your arguament there is redundant yes, that may be true, but that is because, as i said, the ge price is wrong the only way people can get around it is with junking. let me put it this way. if you had gotten a good drop/clue reward before trade restrictions, would you sell it cheap just because you dont wana be super rich, or would you want to take the highest offer you're given for it? only an idiot would say sell cheap the dragon claws rising isnt simply because of cs'd claws. very few people duo td's with coinshare, they use simple lootshare instead because ge price is so off, using cs loses them potential money. the reason that claws rose is because jagex is [most likely] intervening to get the price at a good level. theyve done it before. they are doing it slowly because they dont want to overshoot and make the more expensive than they really are. they artificially boosted item prices before, ya know.this isnt unknown walka please read the word i bolded i said i don't believe the G.E. is right and onward profit Definition The positive gain from an investment or business operation after subtracting for all expenses. opposite of loss. selling a product for exactly its median market value does not constitute profit for instance say you have 5000 yo-yo's that have a median value of $1 each your total net worth is $5000 though it's in product rather than money in order to profit you don't sell those yo-yo's for $1 each you raise the price to $1.50 and sell them thereby gaining you a profit of $2500 due to the fact that junk is sold at it's median market price, it does not increase your net worth and therefore does not generate a profit now back to the example from earlier say you come across a rare that has a median market price of 10m although player demand 50m including junk for it you can either spend weeks gathering 40m worth of junk and in the end have the exact same net worth(only now in shiny gold coins) or you can put it on the g.e. for max and make a profit of 500k you then buy it back at min for 9.5 m making your net worth now be 10.5m in 4 hours you have made a 1m profit say you continue this process for awhile(assume rare items buy and sell immediately which i know they don't this is a hypothetical analysis) this earns you 500k every 4 hours in 76 hours you will have successfully doubled your net worth 76 hours for a 10m profit or weeks for no profit what sounds better? on your first point, i guess i just misread. tyring to watch simpsons while arguing can cause you to miss things anyway your fatal flaw in that argument, is that you ASSUME if i sold claws on ge for anyprice, that i could buy them back 4 hours later. it would be pretty much impssible to buy the claws back from the ge, EVER, at minimum. there is simply so much demand only the people who get offers in just after the ge updates, and offer at max, will ever get them and you say i make no profit from gather junk. are [bleep] [bleep] stoned? or are you just stupid. its still maknig a profit. they have a value to the ge, and i would in theory use them junk up my claws. how can they not be a profit? because i spend time collecting them? in that case the profit is simply measured in gp/hour. or is it because with junk, the time is spent trying to make the item tradeable via junking, and it is no profit because if i see claws as 50m, i must spend hours and hours getting the junk, which is hours wasted because im simply trying to trade them not make extra money? most likely that, but i instead am simply going to wait till they reach a good price on the ge; they are going up every day. they'll reach a good price someday and ill sell. no time wasted, no money lost, only gained, while i have fun with my claws and lend them when i do come across a bit of junk, using junk to make extra cash but im probably rambling. and i cant be bothered arguing with you anymore. its like shouting at a brick wall. completley devoid of thought and just wont move unless you hit it with a sledge hammer walka profit is defined as an increase in net worth selling an item for it's median price doesn't make a profit, you exchange one medium for another, yet what you have is still worth the same price, and waiting for the price on the g.e doesn't change that either, selling claws worth 10m ge price with 40m in junk is the same as selling claws at 25m ge price with 25m junk you're not making a "net gain" you are simply exchanging goods for exactly their net value in order to make a profit, you must sell items for above their net value which is only a possible gain of 60k in player to player trading and i realize that this is a hypothetical situation because no one uses the g.e. this situation is assuming everyone did and working on ideal conditions, i am fully aware it will NEVER run this smoothly the flaw in your argument is you're thinking that selling the items you gathered constitutes profit take an economics course

this is where you're wrong. the GE is NOT right. true, junking stops people selling expensive items on ge because people are willing to pay more when there is junk, because noone sells on the ge because IT IS TOO LOW. as for the point you made about buying junk from other players, that is a redundant point. noone really buys junk from players; they arent that stupid. what they do normally, is either do slayer, godwars, camp at some monsters etc.... for whips, hilts, or whatever that monster drops, and picks up everything they know has a high ge price. they are nomrlally not after the junk itself but the good items. the junk is just incase they need it later. when you do pick up the junk, however, it is not yet profit. you wont use it, you cant sell it [yet] and therefore it is not profit because you get no cash for it. it becomes the profit once you add it to the trae. you took no extra time to get junk, it was gained while looking for another item. time is money, and they wasted no time getting the junk so they wasted no money the last point you made about buyingj unk in small amounts to junk an item, and the dif between min and max is 1m, why junk for 120k when you can buy min and sell max. the fundemental problem is that if an item is ever junked you wont get it min ge unless you have an offer in within about 5 seconds of a ge update, when its price changes. even then you still wont get it unless noone else offers max, because the item will always go on highest offers; if you have the highest offer but its not the earliest offer you wont get it. your arguament there is redundant yes, that may be true, but that is because, as i said, the ge price is wrong the only way people can get around it is with junking. let me put it this way. if you had gotten a good drop/clue reward before trade restrictions, would you sell it cheap just because you dont wana be super rich, or would you want to take the highest offer you're given for it? only an idiot would say sell cheap the dragon claws rising isnt simply because of cs'd claws. very few people duo td's with coinshare, they use simple lootshare instead because ge price is so off, using cs loses them potential money. the reason that claws rose is because jagex is [most likely] intervening to get the price at a good level. theyve done it before. they are doing it slowly because they dont want to overshoot and make the more expensive than they really are. they artificially boosted item prices before, ya know.this isnt unknown walka please read the word i underlined i said i don't believe the G.E. is right and onward profit Definition The positive gain from an investment or business operation after subtracting for all expenses. opposite of loss. selling a product for exactly its median market value does not constitute profit for instance say you have 5000 yo-yo's that have a median value of $1 each your total net worth is $5000 though it's in product rather than money in order to profit you don't sell those yo-yo's for $1 each you raise the price to $1.50 and sell them thereby gaining you a profit of $2500 due to the fact that junk is sold at it's median market price, it does not increase your net worth and therefore does not generate a profit now back to the example from earlier say you come across a rare that has a median market price of 10m although player demand 50m including junk for it you can either spend weeks gathering 40m worth of junk and in the end have the exact same net worth(only now in shiny gold coins) or you can put it on the g.e. for max and make a profit of 500k you then buy it back at min for 9.5 m making your net worth now be 10.5m in 4 hours you have made a 1m profit say you continue this process for awhile(assume rare items buy and sell immediately which i know they don't this is a hypothetical analysis) this earns you 1m every 4 hours in 40 hours you will have successfully doubled your net worth 40 hours for a 10m profit or weeks for no profit what sounds better? also before trade restrictions i would have sold it for whatever i could get, but that would have been pure profit Edit: if anyone can successfully, and through logic prove me wrong economically i will drop this topic altogether edited for math [developmentally delayed]ation

Zamorak had to stab Zaros with the staff before he was injured. I doubt the old 'Hey! look over there!' worked, so it must've taken some skill to do so. Especially as Zamorak and his followers attacked the castle, giving zaros notice of the betrayal before he fought Zamorak. Zamorak was battling Zaros at full power while he was mortal before he managed to weaken him. I know Jagex said Zamorak was the most powerful mortal in existence but damn.. And he wasn't just fighting Saradomin. All the Gods at the time joined up against him, so he was basically fighting the majority of the Gods on his own before the God wars ended. Zamorak stabbed Zaros from behind while he was distracted then began fighting him if you haven't done the ghostly robes miniquest then i suggest you do it as it explains this also they didn't attack the castle it was some sort of battle strategy session in which they caught him off guard, zamoraks followers distracted Zaros while Zamorak himself came up from behind with the staff. Zaros probably believed Zamorak to either be loyal or smart enough to side with him and therefore never saw it coming Zamorak is so cunning. And yeah like I said, Zamorak wasn't just fighting Saradomin. Slightly off topic but I've always wondered how one god can be more powerful then another, since every God's power is infinity (according to Jagex). It's not. Everything is against zamorak. I range Aviancies right where it goes into Bandos territory, they're always fighting Zamorak creatures, yet i've never seen bandos vs saradomin, or Saradomin vs Armadyl etc. [/hide] i don't think jagex ever said all the gods have infinite power They said a God's combat level would be infinity. source please?

[hide=] Zamorak had to stab Zaros with the staff before he was injured. I doubt the old 'Hey! look over there!' worked, so it must've taken some skill to do so. Especially as Zamorak and his followers attacked the castle, giving zaros notice of the betrayal before he fought Zamorak. Zamorak was battling Zaros at full power while he was mortal before he managed to weaken him. I know Jagex said Zamorak was the most powerful mortal in existence but damn.. And he wasn't just fighting Saradomin. All the Gods at the time joined up against him, so he was basically fighting the majority of the Gods on his own before the God wars ended. Zamorak stabbed Zaros from behind while he was distracted then began fighting him if you haven't done the ghostly robes miniquest then i suggest you do it as it explains this also they didn't attack the castle it was some sort of battle strategy session in which they caught him off guard, zamoraks followers distracted Zaros while Zamorak himself came up from behind with the staff. Zaros probably believed Zamorak to either be loyal or smart enough to side with him and therefore never saw it coming Zamorak is so cunning. And yeah like I said, Zamorak wasn't just fighting Saradomin. Slightly off topic but I've always wondered how one god can be more powerful then another, since every God's power is infinity (according to Jagex). It's not. Everything is against zamorak. I range Aviancies right where it goes into Bandos territory, they're always fighting Zamorak creatures, yet i've never seen bandos vs saradomin, or Saradomin vs Armadyl etc. [/hide] i don't think jagex ever said all the gods have infinite power

lemme go in real quick then try again i r 1337 at readinz gibbrish

It's because people are doing tormented demons a lot with coinshare on, there are tons of max offers in and every one that get's cs'd and tossed into the g.e. is getting sold for max price raising its value. Exactly how the G.E. is supposed to work it actually works really well for rare items that are monster drops from monsters that can be killed using coinshare

Zamorak had to stab Zaros with the staff before he was injured. I doubt the old 'Hey! look over there!' worked, so it must've taken some skill to do so. Especially as Zamorak and his followers attacked the castle, giving zaros notice of the betrayal before he fought Zamorak. Zamorak was battling Zaros at full power while he was mortal before he managed to weaken him. I know Jagex said Zamorak was the most powerful mortal in existence but damn.. And he wasn't just fighting Saradomin. All the Gods at the time joined up against him, so he was basically fighting the majority of the Gods on his own before the God wars ended. Zamorak stabbed Zaros from behind while he was distracted then began fighting him if you haven't done the ghostly robes miniquest then i suggest you do it as it explains this also they didn't attack the castle it was some sort of battle strategy session in which they caught him off guard, zamoraks followers distracted Zaros while Zamorak himself came up from behind with the staff. Zaros probably believed Zamorak to either be loyal or smart enough to side with him and therefore never saw it coming Edit: also go to the GWD it's not Armadyl, bandos, and Sara, against Zammy, it's pretty much a free for all or if anything it's closer to zammy and bandos versus armadyl and sara

ok to address multiple posts: No I do not want dragon claws. If i happen to come across a pair that's fine, but i don't pvp so i really don't need them. Next the scam is in the fact that you can't buy rares without having to buy people's junk, so whether you want to or not, if you really want that rare you're forced to buy the junk. Yes i would put third age in the g.e. and be happy with the price it gave me. I'm not looking to be super rich, just to make a living. And i wouldn't pick up maple (u) or addy arrows if i knew i couldn't sell them. The reason i'm against it isn't because i believe the G.E. is right, but because i believe Junk trading prevents it from working the way it is intended to. As for the person who said something about the overpriced junk making you a profit, how is it a profit? you didn't spend the correct price to get it, you likely bought it for that overpriced amount, and sell it to someone else with a rare for that exact same overpriced amount. It doesn't matter if you think it should cost less, the trading system lists it at what it is, and therefore you're doomed to pay it either way. People are allowing the Rare market in the G.E. to remain stagnant while using a system that does not function as people seem to think it does. let's compare it to fish i'm going to make this up completely so bear with me maple chicken-foot bow (u) has a street value of 200gp and a G.E. price of 300gp you amass 10m worth of them and add them to junk thinking "yay 3.3m profit" Wrong! you gathered 10m worth and sold it for 10m the items value in your bank matches the price you get for it, so although you have now converted it to coins you have not made a profit (unless of course you somehow bought that junk for the 6.6m street price which is impossible due to trade limits) now, a polka-dotted sturgeon has a g.e. and street price of 600 you get 10m worth of them and you sell them for a flat 10m you still haven't made a profit you just exchanged for coins, even though these fish aren't junk it still follows the same concept. Unless you buy your junk for a very low price in small increments (say 500 every 15 minutes at the absolute minimum with max quest points or something similar) you will be unable to make a profit on them due to the fact that the trade limit still applies limiting the maximum difference every 15 minutes to around 60k. if you bought all your junk together in a player to player trade at the bare minimum and sell it all with a rare at the absolute maximum, then congratulations you've made a profit of 120k. now take the same rare and assume it's worth 10m g.e. price, say you bought it at minimum that would be 9.5m, and then sold it at maximum being 10.5m (assuming no change of price between buying and selling) congratulations you have just made a 1m profit as opposed to 120k now please tell me why anyone would rather junk for a 120k profit when they can use the g.e. for a 1m profit?

read the god letters then post about guthix it says in there that guthix will take sides with the weaker force if one ever becomes too powerful Zamorak also said Guthix destroys things when he's in a bad mood. you really can't believe anything Zamorak says as is clearly apparent same with Saradomin tbh Yeah but Zamorak >> You. I've had farts that were scarier than Zammy You have to look past the comic relief version of Zamorak used to appeal to the kiddies and admire the deeds he's accomplished ;) . I'll admit to stand toe to toe with Zaros, albeit only temporarily and with Zaros injured took some Chutzpah but what has he accomplished since? even with his powers increased to grant him godhood he still couldn't defeat saradomin quickly enough to have it done before guthix woke up and i think we all agree Zaros would have wiped the floor with Saradomin in a matter of hours if he launched a full scale assault

no one ever said guthix was the god of peace he has no allegiance and desires balance so if one side became too powerful he would join with the other to restore balance Although someone has probably already mentioned this, no, he would destroy gielinor (however its spelled) as predicted by the guys from the quest darkness of hallowvale read the god letters then post about guthix it says in there that guthix will take sides with the weaker force if one ever becomes too powerful Zamorak also said Guthix destroys things when he's in a bad mood. you really can't believe anything Zamorak says as is clearly apparent same with Saradomin tbh Yeah but Zamorak >> You. I've had farts that were scarier than Zammy