magzar

bedman go to school and talk to thee economics teacher, ask them to explain the difference between liquidation and profit to you

Brick walls don't say stupid things though. well excuse me for basing a logical argument around mathematical statistics since i'm simply a brick wall who says stupid things why don't you come stand next to me while i topple over onto you or you can do this :wall: and try to beat good math sense into your heads Good math sense? My math sense is fine, I assure you. You have already stated that you would refuse to sell a 500M item at the GE price if the GE price is 100M. If you will not take a 400M loss to sell your good, why should ANYONE take this loss? Junk trading is not the only way of moving goods around. Bounty Hunter trades and other "accidents" by Jagex allow you to move money fairly safely to people in a trust trade. Admittedly, trust trades are not pleasant, but it's better than a 400M outright lost. Also, why should they sell them in the GE instead of to their friend? Let's see, I can lose 395M... or I can lose 400M and sell the item to my friend, who may be willing to repay me if he or she has a chance Corrupted Morrigan's Javelins say hi. You are being silly. I suppose that's a better word than "stupid", but you still fail to see there is no incentive to use the GE for items that are horribly underpriced. i never said i wouldn't sell a 100m item with a 500m street value on the g.e. if it was stagnant i would sell it if it was rising i would wait for it to peak, and then sell it and how many times do you have to be told that there isn't a loss you're simply not liquidating junk by using the g.e. you're selling it for the same price as you would in a junk trade minus the junk it's not a loss at all, in fact a 100m item would be 5m gain the incentive is in that 5m you obviously do not have good math sense if you can't realize that liquidation and profit are two entirely different things

W00t kep did you get your cape and join me and juhn? 3 quest capes in 2 days ftw!

Brick walls don't say stupid things though. well excuse me for basing a logical argument around mathematical statistics since i'm simply a brick wall who says stupid things why don't you come stand next to me while i topple over onto you or you can do this :wall: and try to beat good math sense into your heads

Guthix is awake now. no he isn't i just did wgs last night and i can assure you guthix did not wake up however i speculate in the continuance of that quest line that he will as far as saradomin, there is no clear information as to how he attained godhood as of yet though many people speculate that the cutscene showing a man touching the stone of jas and suddenly appearing to grow taller and more upright, may have been saradomin, especially due to the fact that the star appeared above his head when he did this i personally believe saradomin was one of the druids charged with the protection of the stone, but his curiosity got the better of him, and upon touching the stone he was filled with power and wisdom, much as the player is during the quest and drunk with this power he began his own crusade the question that remains in my mind is how was he able to sustain the power, when the player lost it quickly this may be perhaps due to the fact lucien stole it perhaps there is some ritual associated with gaining it's true power personally i look forward to learning more about Jas himself where is he, why did he abandon geilinor and why did he leave the stone behind is he so powerful that the stone is a mere bauble to him? and if this is the case then where does his allegiance lie? chaos, order, or balance? and when do jyggalag and sheogorath show up?(=D oblivion: the shivering isles ftw)

bedman...that's not at all what i said not even in the slightest i said if you're going to sell, do it on the g.e. don't junk trade i never said, hey everyone go see your stuff so i can profit off it while you all lose money and like i already said, i would sell when i see that i have the greatest profit potential i suggest following price trends and selling when the profit margin is high enough to satisfy you i don't want to take money out of anyone else pockets which is why i'm against junk trading in the first place because when people don't use the g.e. the underpriced items don't rise and no one can make a decent profit off their rares

He took some stupid comment, decided it was Jagex's official opinion (If 90% of the community can't do it, it's too hard), and bashed them on it. I applied the same logic to him so he gets an understanding of how unfair it is. lulz no i totally got the concept i was just confused about the cows and the kids but after thinking it over i get the analogy you were making

If there are twelve cows at pasture and teenagers tip over three, then you were right to go massacre the entire village. Good logic, Kenneh. :wall: See? Even I can take nonsensical data, throw in some statistics, and call it your official opinion, then bash you for it. *See Patriot emoticon* i have no idea what you were trying to say there but it made me chuckle anyway i really think removing the quest requirement was a good idea the law altar is in an easily accessible area which has no requirements to get to, it was completely unassociated with the quest and law runes have HUGE demand because anyone with the magic level to teleport is going to so more players crafting laws is good for everyone, the fewer people crafting laws, the higher the prices, the less are available for use i mean do you want to have to either spend 1k+ per teleport or craft your own law runes every time you need to teleport? I know i don't besides that, i did the quest long before i got 54 runecrafting(my current rc level which i honestly only got about a week ago) but i've had the magic levels to teleport for who knows how long imagine how long and tedious a process it would be training rc to 54 if there was a deficit in law runes

i was referring to claws as increasing i would hold claws since they're rising steadily(2.2m today) but that obviously isn't true of everyone since their prices are showing a continual change, and there has been no statement by any jagex employee saying they're doing anything to effect prices but i would sell third age because it's prices really aren't changing and since i'm talking about buying and selling on the g.e. "real values" don't matter you have to look at the g.e. database to compare price trends because from player to player there is quite a variance in what they think an item's "real value" is and like i've said before there is no way to get an item's real value just for that item you have to liquidate your junk to get that much money into the trade and the extra money is for the junk not the rare junk trading moves more coins in a trade but the price for the rare is still the same

like pretty much everyone has already said the extra money is for the junk, not the rare to actual "make" more money you should sell on the g.e. like has been stated over and over liquidation and profit are two different things if there was a good way to liquidate junk no one would junk trade because they would realize that it is more profitable to trade in their junk for coins and then sell them on the g.e. for the 5% margin even though junk has no practical value to players, it does still have a value in coins, which is what you're exchanging it for in junk trades it's an equal trade neither player is gaining or losing through junk trades Please tell me why, oh why, does HE have to sell that rare item on the GE (underpriced), while YOU have just admited that you WOULDNT sell it and wait it out. Oh god... god bedman i've repeated this over and over if an item's price is stationary as in not rising, then sell it on the g.e. and make a profit if the item's price is rising, be smart, hold it until it peaks, and then sell it on the g.e. i'm not saying "everyone go sell your rares on the g.e. while i hold mine so i can get more money." i wouldn't hold an item with a stationary price and most people, unless they need quick cash, wouldn't immediately sell an item who's price is on the rise No you didnt repeat that over and over. Your first post says that we all should stop junk trading for underpriced items, and start using the GE. This way, those prices wouldnt be stuck anymore. That's what it says, cant deny that, right? Well, why should we do that if you admit it yourself that you wouldnt do it... ...I would I would use the g.e. not junk trading but if an item's price is rising i would wait for it to peak and i'm not telling anyone else not to either i'm saying sell those items on the g.e. in general i never said you had to sell them immediately everyone has the ability to check price trends and find an appropriate time to sell so let me say it this way use the g.e. but be smart and watch price trends to find a good time if the price is stable or showing a steady decline then sell if it's rising then wait for it to peak and then sell

like pretty much everyone has already said the extra money is for the junk, not the rare to actual "make" more money you should sell on the g.e. like has been stated over and over liquidation and profit are two different things if there was a good way to liquidate junk no one would junk trade because they would realize that it is more profitable to trade in their junk for coins and then sell them on the g.e. for the 5% margin even though junk has no practical value to players, it does still have a value in coins, which is what you're exchanging it for in junk trades it's an equal trade neither player is gaining or losing through junk trades Please tell me why, oh why, does HE have to sell that rare item on the GE (underpriced), while YOU have just admited that you WOULDNT sell it and wait it out. Oh god... god bedman i've repeated this over and over if an item's price is stationary as in not rising, then sell it on the g.e. and make a profit if the item's price is rising, be smart, hold it until it peaks, and then sell it on the g.e. i'm not saying "everyone go sell your rares on the g.e. while i hold mine so i can get more money." i wouldn't hold an item with a stationary price and most people, unless they need quick cash, wouldn't immediately sell an item who's price is on the rise

like pretty much everyone has already said the extra money is for the junk, not the rare to actual "make" more money you should sell on the g.e. like has been stated over and over liquidation and profit are two different things if there was a good way to liquidate junk no one would junk trade because they would realize that it is more profitable to trade in their junk for coins and then sell them on the g.e. for the 5% margin even though junk has no practical value to players, it does still have a value in coins, which is what you're exchanging it for in junk trades it's an equal trade neither player is gaining or losing through junk trades

it seems to me that, at this point, most everyone is agreeing that junk trading is a flawed system and that the liquidation of said junk would prevent players from using it in the trading of rares which would then move to the g.e. so what i'm not understanding, is why people continue to insist that junk trading should continue if everyone knows that it doesn't work properly why do they still want to do it? bedman, as for you calling me a hypocrite, you completely misunderstood what i said for a rare item that had a stable price and was showing no significant increase trend, i would sell, with no qualms whatsoever however if i looked at g.e. prices for a rare and saw that they were continually on the rise, i would wait until they peaked before selling that isn't hypocrisy, it's good business, if prices are already rising i hurt nothing by waiting until they hit a higher level before i sell edit: craggy there are some fundamental flaws in your argument, but i'm tired of arguing the point, and other people(such as soma and makoto) are doing a pretty good job of that so i've decided to leave it also people are agreeing that it's a flawed system so there isn't much point in arguing it it should end and be replaced with a system that allows you to liquidate your junk with minimal monetary loss while the rare market should be moved to the g.e. in order to promote a healthy economy and maximize profit potential

lulz walka we've been agreeing this whole damn time what the hell we both agree that the value in junk trading is in getting something useful from something useless and not in making profit off the rare wow how confusing this has been when we both have the same stance #-o i mean you agree that if we could liquidate our junk in another way without loss it would just be better to use the g.e. right? first off, this is mainly coz i pursue conflict, its part of my personality and i cant help it XD our main problem has been how we define our profits in junking, really. my stance has *slightly* changed in this overtime though, haha i agree with your definition of profit being that you have something usable i think that was our problem i was talking about purely having more than you started with moneywise whereas you were talking about having something you could use as opposed to junk and sorry makoto i'm still against junk trading as it is the cause of frozen g.e. prices but i do see its benefit when it comes to liquidating junk if you already have it i can't see why anyone would ever let 100m worth of junk build up anyway but if it's there you need some way to get what it's worth personally i would sell it as i got it, as selling small amounts of junk to general or specialty stores is a pretty good stop-loss the only reasonable use for junk trading is the liquidation of your frozen assets which, if the buying player really has no choice but to buy it for junk or not buy it at all, constitutes you scamming them into buying your crap i do believe that bringing junk trading to an end would easily improve the rs economy tenfold the first step i think is a new way for players to liquidate their frozen assets so the "black hole" sounds like a good idea to me i also think jagex should, with the introduction of said black hole, release a statement to players explaining the concept and flaws involved in junk trading, as obviously many players don't really understand what it really does and honestly i don't see any potential for RWT abuse i see no way that it could be used for trading between players my idea is more like a scrapyard you go and sell your junk at 75-80% of its g.e. value which would allow players to reasonably liquidate their junk without a huge loss and items that aren't junk would still be traded on the g.e. does everyone basically agree to this concept?

lulz walka we've been agreeing this whole damn time what the hell we both agree that the value in junk trading is in getting something useful from something useless and not in making profit off the rare wow how confusing this has been when we both have the same stance #-o i mean you agree that if we could liquidate our junk in another way without loss it would just be better to use the g.e. right?

thanks makoto yeh that's what i've been trying to say it's like trading money for money i've never been very good at coming down to people's levels to explain things to them i for some reason expect people to operate on the same level i do your explanation is plain, and to the point and cannibalism formulas you make up don't count i'm talking tried and true formulas which have been developed over time to be correct it's pretty simple to come up with little tricks to make a problem say one thing it's like saying 2x2-2=2 so any number times it's minus itself equals the original number but 4x4-4=12 so obviously this isn't the case it's a formula you made um and it may work in one or two problems but not in all the pythagorean theorem however or the slope formula or the distance formula or the quadratic equation these work everytime lady it's irrelevant because whether you like it or not you have to pay ge prices for items you can't pay their player conceived prices and no i didn't mean complaining won't fix them i mean no matter how much you complain the prices are still set so unless they're changed you have to pay them and i already acknowledged that you profit in the sense that when selling junk you now have more usable coin however this isn't a profit it's an equal exchange, even though it's frozen it still has the same value as the coins you sell it for, you just couldn't use it before and i'm demeaning people because even though i post mathematical figures, definitions, formulas, and sound reasoning behind my arguments, people continue to argue against me by saying the g.e. is wrong but yeh trading in frozen assets for liquid assets is smart business-wise but it's not making a profit the people who came up with junk trading i have to admit were pretty clever in finding a way to liquidate those assets and convince players that was not all it was doing, absolute genius as far as i'm concerned because to believe it actually increases the value of the rare is ridiculous, and the mark of a true genius is that he can convince people that a stupid concept is totally sound walka you have to use it's monetary value because the player determined value isn't coded into the game you can't choose your own price for an item and have the game recognize it so you can't make the game think that your price is the correct price the game thinks the correct prices are those of the g.e. and what the game thinks overrules what the players think and i NEVER said the g.e. was right, i said that we are forced to accept it's prices whether they are right or wrong i don't think they're right either but you can't get around them makoto summed it up beautifully it's the exact same as selling an item and coins for more coins or say you're from europe and you have 15000 euro's you come to america and they're useless here no one wants them and you can't do anything with them so you go to an exchange office and get their exact value in american dollars you haven't made a profit even though in america the euro is junk problem with that: they are all currencies that are easily exchangable, through exchange offices. junk in rs is NOT easily exchangable. until they use junk to bulk up a trade it may as well be worth sweet [bleep] all because it can not be used as a currency to buy from the runescape shops, you can not use it yourself, and noone will buy if for both these reasons. also, you can infact chose your own price for an item. be it through junking or bh trading, you can easily bypass the set trade limits if you know what to do, so it is EASY for the players to set their own price on an item. therefore the game does not overrule what players think. you just need to be smarter than the game, to get around it you never said the ge was right. fine, but you seem to act like you think it is a hell of a lot. now. answer my hypothetical without refering to the fact you would never collect junk. say it just magically appeared in you bank. would you sell an expensive item with this junk. the junk took no time for you to get, and you cant use it in its current form for anything else and noone will buy it by itself yes or no. if i had it and was looking to liquidate my junk i would junk trade just to get rid of it, and from that point on only use the g.e. because after that liquidation my main interest would be in increasing my total bank value which you can't do by junk trading the only thing junk trading does is liquidate junk you agree with that right? so once i liquidated my junk i would start merchanting on the g.e. to increase my profits i mean would you agree you can make far more by flipping masks than you can by junk trading? because that's my whole argument right there (dusty if junk = 0 then drop it all on the ground and walk away, go ahead do it, come on what are you waiting for, if you agree it can be liquidated for it's g.e. value through junk trading then you agree it has a value, and if you don't then i'm not sure what kind of math you've been learning but something is wrong with it, your total bank value is calculated by determining the market prices of everything inside it and adding it together to the game 80m in junk = 80m in coins even though the junk has no use and players won't give money for it on it's own) final example and post until someone posts mathematical figures that i can argue you have 80m in junk and a 10m that people are willing to pay 90m for this is all you have in your bank you junk it for that 90m you now have 90m coins your bank value began at 90m and ended at 90m which is no profit although quite a handy liquidation to be sure now you have 80m in junk and a 10m rare people will pay 90m for but you decide to sell it on the g.e. for max so you sell that 10m rare for 10.5m you now have 80m in junk and 10.5 in coins your bank value began at 90m and ended at 90.5m for a total net gain of 500k you haven't liquidated your assets, but now you have .5m more in your bank value than you did before honestly what i would do if i had all this junk and a rare, is i would do a junk trade liquidate my assets and then with that 90m i would buy 9 of those rares at med and sell them all at max for 4.5m profit that is the smart course of action if you already have the junk but if you don't accumulate the junk in the first place you can spend your time merching on the g.e. for nothing but profit final statement junk trading = great for liquidation of assets g.e. = great for making a profit should liquidation of assets have anything whatsoever to do with the rare market, NO!

lets take a modern day example. A rare 1801 dollar coin's monetary value is exactly 1 dollar but yet its worth 4 million dollars. A 3rd age mage top is worth 120 mil but its real monetary value is 45 mil if the real world had trade limits that would work but that still doesn't effect my argument that junk trading makes no profit

thanks makoto yeh that's what i've been trying to say it's like trading money for money i've never been very good at coming down to people's levels to explain things to them i for some reason expect people to operate on the same level i do your explanation is plain, and to the point and cannibalism formulas you make up don't count i'm talking tried and true formulas which have been developed over time to be correct it's pretty simple to come up with little tricks to make a problem say one thing it's like saying 2x2-2=2 so any number times it's minus itself equals the original number but 4x4-4=12 so obviously this isn't the case it's a formula you made um and it may work in one or two problems but not in all the pythagorean theorem however or the slope formula or the distance formula or the quadratic equation these work everytime lady it's irrelevant because whether you like it or not you have to pay ge prices for items you can't pay their player conceived prices and no i didn't mean complaining won't fix them i mean no matter how much you complain the prices are still set so unless they're changed you have to pay them and i already acknowledged that you profit in the sense that when selling junk you now have more usable coin however this isn't a profit it's an equal exchange, even though it's frozen it still has the same value as the coins you sell it for, you just couldn't use it before and i'm demeaning people because even though i post mathematical figures, definitions, formulas, and sound reasoning behind my arguments, people continue to argue against me by saying the g.e. is wrong but yeh trading in frozen assets for liquid assets is smart business-wise but it's not making a profit the people who came up with junk trading i have to admit were pretty clever in finding a way to liquidate those assets and convince players that was not all it was doing, absolute genius as far as i'm concerned because to believe it actually increases the value of the rare is ridiculous, and the mark of a true genius is that he can convince people that a stupid concept is totally sound walka you have to use it's monetary value because the player determined value isn't coded into the game you can't choose your own price for an item and have the game recognize it so you can't make the game think that your price is the correct price the game thinks the correct prices are those of the g.e. and what the game thinks overrules what the players think and i NEVER said the g.e. was right, i said that we are forced to accept it's prices whether they are right or wrong i don't think they're right either but you can't get around them makoto summed it up beautifully it's the exact same as selling an item and coins for more coins or say you're from europe and you have 15000 euro's you come to america and they're useless here no one wants them and you can't do anything with them so you go to an exchange office and get their exact value in american dollars you haven't made a profit even though in america the euro is junk edit: walka....your economics are flawed you can't use a player made real value in economics even though that's it's value to players, the market prevents you from using it so it's useless in determining real figures

oops meant to edit not quote

Actually, formulas are debunked all the time. The way it works is that someone comes up with a formula that they think works, and it usually does for most cases, but then someone else comes along and shows that it's wrong in one or more cases and it's discarded for a new formula or modified so that it does work. Now, I'll agree that the formula in the picture is correct, but your interpretation of it is far from true (not to mention that your written definition, the one I was talking about, is completely wrong as easily seen by opening a dictionary). As for the second part, excuse me for not noticing that what you wrote was actually two paragraphs seperated by neither punctuation, the capitalization of the first letter of either paragraph, nor an empty line. Maybe if you had the writing skills of a fourth grader, I wouldn't have made that mistake. i got that definition from dictionary. com genius anyway you show me one formula that was ever proven wrong go ahead i'm all ears scientific theories are disproven alllll the time mathematical formulas are concrete most mathematical formulas are at the very least hundreds of years old dating back to people such as pythagoras, or descartes anyway, walka you just kinda proved my point in a way you admitted that the only reason you use junk trading is to get rid of your junk and look in determining profit, you can not use the player set value you MUST use the market value as that is the overall monetary standard i fully and completely realize they're not worth the prices the g.e. has them set at to players but nonetheless that is their concrete and unchangable worth it's like this, i don't thing a bottle of medicine for chemo which costs a few dollars overall to make is worth thousands of dollars yet is is because that is its set price you guys are still stuck on the argument that the g.e. is wrong which is irrelevant you can't pay more or less than the g.e. says is right it's impossible you can disagree with the prices all you like you still have to pay them (sidenote to the person who said jagex has been raising the price of claws: that's speculation it hasn't been stated by by any mods anywhere to my knowledge. it may in fact be that they have reworked the mechanics of the g.e. for that one item as a test for all i know, in which case terrific it seems to be working pretty well.) and to the person who said i would be unwilling to take part, that's not true either, if i look at an item's price and see it steadily rising without my input i would hold it. if the item is stagnant, such as third age or others i would off it as far as corrupted vesta's or whatever, i would pick it up for novelty and then let it rot, because no one wants those for any reason as far as i can tell anyway seriously the only benefit of junk trading is ridding yourself of junk even though it has no practical value among players its value on the g.e. is still it's monetary value if you don't increase the monetary value of your bank by selling something YOU DON'T MAKE A MONETARY PROFIT seriously i don't know what's so hard to understand about the fact that where money is concerned you must use an item's monetary value the extra money you're getting in junk trades is the monetary value of the junk monetary value of junk =/= 0 even though its practical value is btw what grade are you guys in, and how are your standardized test scores? let's see you put up that information before you call someone who has consistently tested in the top 10% of the nation(pics for proof can be supplied at anytime) stupid. you obviously don't understand the concept that the concete pricee of an item as set by the market must be used when determining profit so i just don't get it

has it really been 2 months already? wow anyway if people weren't junking them and were using the g.e. they would obviously be moving more quickly and i didn't say i wouldn't use the g.e. for them but i'm smart enough to watch price trends and see that they're on the rise some people just don't care and sell them anyway or they get coinshared either way in 2 months they've risen by 8600% that's really not that bad IMO

i don't even have a rune defender #-o but i would love to see a dragon defender and i don't think it would be overpowered with more and more powerful weapons being released, more powerful/defensive shields are a logical step so they don't need to increase level caps(which i think will eventually have to happen so that they can continue to release increasingly more powerful items, as players would stop playing at the realization that there would never be a more powerful item available)

Oh i Just love your posts I find it really sad that a really cool addition like the corporal beast isnt used to it's full extent cause of the GE and trade restrictions... (Which clans kill the corp beast, knowing that they either have to ls and make one member very happy, or cs and see your sigil being sold for Jagex's ridiculous price? And Mazgar, you just got yourself totally screwed over: Read that again, will you. Then ask yourself why everyone but you would use the GE for that item. Realised how idiotic that is? YOU are saying that YOU would wait it out, and you expect OTHERS to take the hit and sell their item undervalued. haha. How [bleep] hypocrite is that. look at how quickly claws have been rising 150k when they came out they're at 13m now someone from forsakenmage's chat bought 6 pairs at max on g.e. the day they came out so obviously some people are dumb enough not to hold them one think you can ALWAYS count on in life is the stupidity of others as far as csing the corporal beast, do you really mind that much when some get leaked onto the g.e. and bump prices up a bit? i certainly wish we didn't have to deal with trade restrictions but you can thank real world traders for that

I and several others have debunked this definition of profit several times already both with a dictionary definition and the complete decimation of your idiotic profit equation. Wait, so selling it at the GE price (which is what you do in a junk trade) really is profit? You're contradicting yourself and ignoring/trying to debunk legitimate arguments so much that this is getting to be hilarious. acenator that "idiotic" profit definition is the mathematical formula for profit you can't debunk a formula and no selling at g.e. price isn't profit but selling it below is a slight loss which you would understand is exactly what i said if you had the reading comprehension of a 4th grader a slight loss from selling junk to stores doesn't cancel out large profits from g.e. trading though especially since using the g.e. to sell rares would raise their market values allowing for even larger profit margins obviously if you could just sell your junk at g.e. prices it would be preferable, but you can't so the best option is to liquidate for as much as you can while making profit off your rares on the g.e. and soma yeh i would probably hold the item for a bit while the price rose but if the g.e. was being used then that would happen quickly but still selling with junk makes you no profit so it's not like you're helping yourself if you do you're selling your junk, you're not selling your rare for more than it's worth but if it was a 300k item i would probably sell it for 360k through player to player to maximize my profit i did say that any item with a %5 margin of more than 60k makes more profit on g.e. anything less has a higher profit through player to player i agree the prices need some updating but jagex is never going to raise rares to street prices because no one agrees on street prices there's just a general range and i agree they should bring bach the bandit camp shop buying at alch value seriously the point people aren't getting though and that i can't stress enough is that junk has a value in coins even though it has no use and the coin value is what is used in determining profit so you're not changing the price of your rare by selling it with junk you're just selling your junk it's a GREAT method just to liquidate your junk but it does nothing so far as making profit or affecting the price of rares and personally i have no junk, and i want to make profit off any rares i get since i have nothing to liquidate, any rare i sell on the g.e. is pure profit for me btw artemis i get that it moves more gp in a trade i'm not disputing that what i'm saying is that it makes no profit, and that it doesn't allow the price of rares to rise so it keeps the amount of profit possible from ever rising and like i said, if i'm selling a rare, i want profit

artemis read the entire thread before posting