RU_Insane

What an excellent article. You clearly deserve a medal for your groundbreaking conclusions. You clearly spent an ample amount of time researching the issue and totally reached an original and thought-provoking conclusion.

Someone should lock this thread as it really has exhausted any little relevant discussion value it has started with >_>

Her account was recovered. The rest is correct.

Jagex would lock all accounts that engaged in trade with the infiltrated account, so I don't see why this would be a concern. "injecting items is not jagex style." Do you mean it's not within Jagex's reason to compensate the user with the stolen item as opposed to its subjective cash value?

No, unfortunately. >.> Why is that unfortunate? I've been hacked/phished before and would expect my items back as well. I think it's unfortunate that she got hacked and that Jagex could easily return them, but I also understand that Jagex has no legal obligation to, and so they didn't, for reasons that have been cited in this thread ad nauseum. Really, the sadness for me lies in the fact that the work went to waste so quickly. Yeah, I'd have to agree. It sucks, but rich (even the richest) players shouldn't have pity taken upon them just because they put a lot of work and time into their account. One could argue that this is true. Considering that the player in question is a professional mercher, she can probably get a few mill from a friend be back to hundred millionare status if not billionaire status in what, a month? The amount of cash she could make in comparison to what she lost in today's capital environment almost balances out. People on her level can make triple digit millions an hour provided they have the appropriate amount of capital to do so. I'm sure she'll have no trouble making it back, assuming she is still playing? She is semi-inactive, apparently. I remember now, actually, that her account is locked. Assuming that the legitimate owner can get the account unlocked, she can make it back with some difficulty, considering it's a great amount of wealth. It depends how long she'll think she'll make it back, and how much effort she's going to put into making it back. But yeah, she's inactive. May you explain why so? It would seem some people in this thread share the opposite conviction.

No, unfortunately. >.> Why is that unfortunate? I've been hacked/phished before and would expect my items back as well. I think it's unfortunate that she got hacked and that Jagex could easily return them, but I also understand that Jagex has no legal obligation to, and so they didn't, for reasons that have been cited in this thread ad nauseum. Really, the sadness for me lies in the fact that the work went to waste so quickly. Yeah, I'd have to agree. It sucks, but rich (even the richest) players shouldn't have pity taken upon them just because they put a lot of work and time into their account. One could argue that this is true. Considering that the player in question is a professional mercher, she can probably get a few mill from a friend be back to hundred millionare status if not billionaire status in what, a month? The amount of cash she could make in comparison to what she lost in today's capital environment almost balances out. People on her level can make triple digit millions an hour provided they have the appropriate amount of capital to do so.

No, unfortunately. >.> Why is that unfortunate? I've been hacked/phished before and would expect my items back as well. I think it's unfortunate that she got hacked and that Jagex could easily return them, but I also understand that Jagex has no legal obligation to, and so they didn't, for reasons that have been cited in this thread ad nauseum. Really, the sadness for me lies in the fact that the work went to waste so quickly. Sure. 170 billion GP stolen from the victim's bank, which was all of it. I don't think posting pictures is out of line. ^ All of that was stolen and redistributed amongst other accounts who were promptly banned.

No, unfortunately. >.>

Not really. The victim was a hoarder. The Santas sat in her bank all the time, so either way, it's like Santas never existed on the market because they weren't a part of the supply. Santas were fluctuating all the time even when she had 1K Santas in her bank. Demand for Santas went up because she was hoarding them, thus restricting the supply. Demand for Santas will remain the same because having them removed is essentially the same as not trading that wealth at all, thus keeping the supply the same as before: restricted. Because of this, I would argue that the Santas being removed have a minimal affect on the economy. All the idiots (and there are a lot of them) are panicking because they are too dumb to realize this. Once these [developmentally delayed]s come to their senses in a few days, the market will stabilize. Agreed. The market in actuality has the same levels of supply -- at least -- for Santas as it had before the victim's items were removed. The only real thing to fear for the market is panic trading which influences demand, as I outlined before in one of my earlier posts in this thread. It always seems to go back to not thinking the issue through enough. :P

Not really. The victim was a hoarder. The Santas sat in her bank all the time, so either way, it's like Santas never existed on the market because they weren't a part of the supply. Santas were fluctuating all the time even when she had 1K Santas in her bank. Demand for Santas went up because she was hoarding them, thus restricting the supply. Demand for Santas will remain the same because having them removed is essentially the same as not trading that wealth at all, thus keeping the supply the same as before: restricted. Because of this, I would argue that the Santas being removed have a minimal affect on the economy.

I agree that depending on the usefulness of this policy (read: cash opportunities), that Jagex may change their minds in the future about returning items to players. Jagex would rather keep players playing and paying by limiting game functions and substituting them, rather than have them lose interest by legalizing RWT or shutting down RuneScape because of their failed bot detection systems. And Jagex would rather re-introduce wilderness to bring back players and payers when their systems are strong enough to detect and ban more bots, rather than keep the populace dissatisfied and potentially lose membership. Going along the same line of reasoning, I see no reason why Jagex shouldn't implement a return policy because victims of large theft will be disinterested to play further. Since paying players usually have far more in-game wealth [and perhaps real life wealth] than free to play members, Jagex best be interested to compensate these victims with their items rather than lose their members and thus their cash and source of income. Larger amount of theft, larger reason the victim has to not play. Player doesn't play, payer doesn't pay. One less pay, Jagex makes eight dollars fewer a month. Times this by about ten thousand and... yeah. Jagex had all the stolen items removed so they obviously knew which ones were stolen by whom and from whom. They were also able to lock all the accounts that traded with the hijacked victim, so I don't understand what they mean by something akin to 'the process would be hard to carry out because a lot of people would send in fake requests for losses'. I have very little coding knowledge, but for a company as experienced as Jagex in programming, I imagine it wouldn't be difficult for Jagex to whip-up a return policy based on an efficient check-spawn system. It wouldn't be hard to verify "compensation requests", because you have the logs and you're able to see who dropped what or who traded with whom, and what computer logged into which account and any discrepancies in log-in locations and time zones. You'll easily judge who sent in a real request and who did not based on those and several other pieces of info. You'll have the info, so you'll be able to check the sent information by the alleged victim against your logs. If you have a good enough program to do it, should literally be able to return a few hundred matches or negatives in a the span of a few seconds. And from those matches or negatives of list comparisons, you can automatically reject or accept those requests. And if those requests get accepted, the system should automatically spawn X amount of Y item that the victim said was stolen. In other words, the system checks against a Jagex log to see if the requested items have really been stolen based on an algorithm. If they have, the system spawns X amount [the X would be filled in by the player] of Y item [the Y would also be filled in the compensation request]. The only problem I see so far is that these items could potentially be duped. The compensation requests would be legitimate, but depending on what was stolen from those accounts, could harm the economy if the player intends to sell those retrieved items on the market. However, if Jagex removes the stolen items from the perpetrators first, and compensates the victim after, than I see no reason why Jagex shouldn't implement the policy, because then there is no excess supply of items. Thoughts?

While that section describes RWT, it also applies to any items in general. ANYTHING on your account (items, xp, time, ect..) belongs to Jagex. Just because you spend 100 hours of your personal time to buy items with other virtual items does not mean your "time" gives you rights to those items. So the point is, the Hats were, and always are, property of Jagex and not the player. You are simply renting them. If a rented car is stolen, does the insurance company reimburse you for any damages to the car? No. They would reimburse the car company. In this scenario Jagex is both the insurance company and the car company. You (as the consumer) can't sue the insurance company for not giving you money for a rented car.. You are simply out of luck with the old car, and have to work to rent a new one. Back atcha: Court Ruling in Runescape Case (Netherlands) or perhaps you prefer some examples from British law: Terra Nova Blog We are already seeing cases where the rule of law conflicts with the ToS. In those cases, law trumps ToS. In the current situation, Jagex removed the opportunity for law to run its course by deleting the stolen items before the rule of law had a chance to take its course. Now of course, Jagex can just whip up a thousand hats if the legal process dictated it, so there is no real harm done (yet) in deleting the hats. But it’s folly to suggest that Jagex’ TOS protects them from ever having to do so. The rule of law doesn't conflict with the terms of service because the terms of service are legally backed up. Jagex legally owns all property in the game and licenses accounts to players to use within rules Jagex has defined and creates punishments that break those rules and moderate the game as Jagex sees fit. The article you've cited is about a player stealing from another player, but those goods still belong to Jagex. It doesn't describe any legal action taken against Jagex themselves for not returning 'stolen' items. Secondly, Jagex can't return 'stolen' items because those items have always belonged to Jagex! It doesn't matter who's in possession of those items because all players are granted use of the game under predefined terms that Jagex can change at any time without notice that the player has already agreed to. When a player agrees to those terms, they have also already forsaken any rights they have under the law to seek any legal action against Jagex. The player agrees to be subservient to Jagex in exchange for services that Jagex has invested time and capital into, which is the basis for all usage terms. To Jagex, those services have value because they invested time and capital and thus they have the right to charge for those services. Either way, the game is licensed because even in membership, the player is buying the privilege to access the additional content of the game, and Jagex can revoke those privileges at anytime. Whatever the player does on those licensed accounts is of no value to Jagex, only the account itself is of value to Jagex, hence why they are given ownership of it in the first place, and can do anything with what was done by the player on the account that Jagex has granted it to under their own terms. There is absolutely no justification for Jagex to give the items back to the victim. What the law can do if Jagex hasn't done anything is to force the perpetrators to give the stolen goods back to the victim if it is so ruled by the courts. However, as Jagex is the legal owner and operator of their game, they are by default 'the law'. If Jagex has removed some 'stolen' items from the game, for example, it's assumed Jagex has operated reasonably because legally, those items belong to Jagex, and thus can do whatever they like with them because the player and Jagex are not on an equal basis of ownership terms. Jagex can easily take back the goods that were returned to the victim if they see fit to do so and don't have to worry about repercussions. The law can't do crap if Jagex has already done something as per their legal rights defined in the terms about the situation. No basis at all. In short, Jagex is the sole owner of all property including accounts in the game. They grant terminable ownership to players for free or for a fee as they see fit. Because ownership is terminable, it's fallacious to assume that the player has any right to anything on the account. It's terminable, so the player has agreed to Jagex's game rules when using the account. The only thing of value to Jagex is the items on the account and the account itself. The time taken by the player to accumulate those items doesn't matter because even though the time is used by the player, the players are granted time-usage by Jagex. In other words, the players wouldn't even be able to invest time into the account if it weren't for Jagex. Yes, Jagex legally owns the time you use to level your account. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to terminate service at any time for any reason. Time does not factor into this case at all as an argument against Jagex's TOS. No basis. I'm sure Jagex has written their terms of service legally insofar as the law would see no problem with the items legally being in Jagex's absolute possession. Jagex has no obligation to offer compensation to players for time lost because that time to invest into accounts is granted by Jagex to the player. Technically, Jagex loses the time, not the player, because the accounts belong to it. That's all. I agree that there are contractual terms that cannot be agreed to, however Jagex being a legal entity has required the player to relinquish the right to sue as per usage so I fail to see how exactly an ownership dispute would see the light of day in the courts. You seem to be sure that there are terms Jagex has already set that have, for some reason not been reviewed by law one way or another. What are these terms, and why do you feel that they have no legal basis?

On the contrary, she did teach the unfortunate how to make money, provide new methods and schemes to make profit, donated to fans/subscribers and made friends with plenty of Jagex moderators. I can't say this is Karma's work but yeh, I personally don't like her either and I rather this happen than the opposite. :rolleyes: She seems to be a very kind soul from what I've heard of her. She gave crucial flipping advice to budding merchants. She had cash, but she gave knowledge, which can only work to produce in reciprocity. Give her a few mill and she'll be back in a few months to what I hope will be a large fraction of her former wealth. By then far more wealth will have entered the game and been distributed amongst the populace than what has been lost by one!

Nicely worded. I agree that some of the blame is potentially on Jagex for encouraging players to associate their accounts with such personal data. It goes against their advice to keep their recoveries personal, but a few key recovery questions and other pertinent information could be deduced simply from viewing a profile page like FaceBook that disseminates such personal information. Especially with how FaceBook is centered around connecting with old friends and family it seems, the relevant information for one to reconnect with a signifigant figure is made publicly avalible, and that same personal information that really at best, only your family should know about you is of course made public because FaceBook capitalizes on connections. It's not FaceBook's fault of course, but the way Jagex approached the issue of advertising themselves (although other gaming companies do it too I suppose) completely eschewed any personal connection that FaceBook capitalizes on as an objective to keep their site running. If it's personal information that can endanger your account, keep it personal. If that same information exists on your public profile where you're going to link it with Jagex, don't link it, because other people can draw connections between your game account information and personal information. In short, I would also agree that it's partly the account owner's fault for not fully thinking through the ramifications of associating themselves with Jagex on a site not affiliated with it, but Jagex chooses to advertise itself on. Had FaceBook and Jagex been official partners, such information would been eschewed from being divulged because Jagex could easily control the flow of personal details pouring through between the two sites by setting limits. They would foresee these security threats because they're not in the exact frame of mind -- that is to advertise by taking advantage of what FaceBook gives them to do whatever -- rather than to set their own objectives with their own predefined limits as to how to reach them. In short, if Jagex had advertised themselves through a medium where they could control the flow of information being divulged, Jagex could advertise themselves to the public successfuly while also ensuring that no one could endanger their account by posting sensitive data. I've heard about rares being sold before they were banned. Since I presume the buyers got the rares for cheaper than usual, they have an incentive to sell them to make a quick profit, as opposed to the items technically not existing on the market either way because the rares are just sitting in her bank. So since I presume they'll be on the market, prices will definitely fluctuate. I would think the prices would go up because the people they sold the rares too would be looking to profit. The only factor I foresee changing any price drastically is panic trading. Since a profit is to be made from those rares, the stolen rares are obviously existing on the market. Since the majority of rares have been sold as opposed to the minority banned, it's fallacious to assume that prices will go up simply because the perpretators were banned. The majority of the stolen rares are being traded on the market, so the same supply of rares meets the demand as before. Thus, according to basic economics, the prices should not fluctuate outside their parameters defined by this sustained supply and demand. My mistake espoused the opposite conclusion in my closing thoughts of my first post. However, since the vast amount of the populace seems to be in direct opposition to critical thinking, they will of course panic and cause prices to rise. An interesting explanation I heard is that, should Chessy ever return to RuneScape and find herself looted, demand and thus prices would fall for rares because Chessy would be regaining her wealth. The populace would know that Chessy is no longer in possession of these rares, so it would be pointless for the demand to rise because demand assumes that supply still exists. However, even if the vast amount of rares were instead banned as opposed to being redistributed through the market, demand would fall because those rares were gone -- and you can't demand something you know someone doesn't have. Interesting take on the issue. It's not what I espouse, but interesting nonetheless.

I'll correct you. The issue only takes a few minutes to research. First of all, her account was not hacked, it was recovered. There were several people from Final Ownage Elite, at least three of them I have heard of now but will not name, who had worked together to recover her account. They did this by collecting her personal information and abusing a flaw in the recovery system. The person's account had been inactive for several months as far as I am aware, so the 'crackers' as they were just waited for the bank PIN on the account to expire. The person in control of the account at that time chooses three days or seven days for the PIN to expire, and logically here the choice would be three days if the hackers were looking for the biggest haul in the shortest amount of time. So they only needed to wait three days for the PIN to expire, which was very easy considering the person is inactive, so she did not know that her PIN had a cancellation request pending on it. The perpetrators stole about 175 billion GP from the person's account, which was also her entire bank, and dispersed the ill-gotten wealth amongst themselves and traded other people whom they did not know to show what they had stolen. In the process, the infiltrator had went into the person's clan chat and publicly framed another very wealthy player for the scheme, and then promptly logged out. The schemers were dealt with pretty quickly seeing as how they posted pictures of their gains. The victim's account was locked, and the intruders were permenantly banned. The person had a bank PIN, she was just inactive so it was easy for the perpetrators to forcefully expire it. I'm sure someone with her level of wealth would take some of the most cautious measures to ensure that her computer were safe from any keyloggers or trojans and the like. It's a fallacy to assume that the reason her account was broken into was because her computer was insecure. The people recovered the account, so it's most likely that the information they used to recover it, if the person was smart, was very personal. If she was not paying as much attention when setting her recoveries, she most likely used information that would only take a few minutes to retrieve the aforementioned account. These are my own thoughts now, but I think it's safe to presume that the information used could not endanger her real life wealth, meaning the information was personal but not necessarily harmful, because it makes no sense to retrieve someone's credit card number or social security and use them to crack into someone's account on a video game when potentially more could be made from stealing from the former. I also think since so many rares have now left the game because the accounts were banned or locked, that rares will experience quite a sharp rise in price. And since the victim in question is also inactive, I doubt if she knows her account has even been broken into. She is in for quite a surprise when she logs back on. :-/

Seeing as how Jagex said the Veteran capes will be made available for all to wear, I can't wait to get my own cape! ;D I wonder if it'll be free, or if you'll have to pay for it. Most likely the former.

Zarfot quit? I'm only interested because it seems to be a big deal as far as I can see. I can see this is also a mock of the other thread though, so probably not. Either way, I don't care overall actually. edit;; never mind, it seems he already quit a few months ago. google ftw.

I never heard of him until I opened this thread. I have also never heard of Zarfot or Themurder until I read yours and a few other posts in this thread, and now only know of a name, not what they are known for. There are some people who play the game for fun, and don't pay attention to what other people are doing. Most of his reasons are definitely legitimate, no doubt, and most of the people that you are targeting with your post didn't say otherwise, they were just stating that the fact that he is quitting doesn't have as great of an impact that the OP and a few others are implying. As for jealousy? When I was 15, I only spent a couple hours a day on weekdays playing games (mostly runescape), because that was all I could do with my free time those days. For him to be maxed at that age either means he spends little to no free time away from his computer, or bots, neither of which should make anyone jealous. This a thousand times over. The thread's only discussion point is the question "when will Jagex cross the line for you". That's all he needed to ask. He didn't need to tack on some pointless mush fawning over his opinion of how 4w50m3 this guy is, with the way the author approached the main subject. It's also unlikely that Jagex will ever cross the line with people as far as some in this thread as postulated (for example, allowing people to real world trade) because they are a company looking to satisfy the majority, and the majority does not wish to engage in activities that I would presume lessen the value of their gameplay. So the thread is asking people to imagine what hamfisted move Jagex will commit to get them to quit. And even if those people quit their memberships, a few more will take their place. Meaning that whatever value the author attempted to assign to the thread is lost, because for one, woox16 quitting has far less of an impact than the author hilariously tries to imply, and two, Jagex doesn't care if they lose a few members over a trivial update because the scope of what could be lost to Jagex is marginalized because they are looking to profit. The thread asks people to answer a question assuming that the update in question is negative, which is of course subjective because it applies on an individual basis. Many more people could see an update as positive and be compelled to keep playing or join or upgrade to a membership because again, Jagex looks to satisfy the majority. Obviously at times they have to compromise between satisfaction and necessity to keep the game running (the December '07 updates, for example) which would cause an undesirable loss of players, but in the long run, their move satisfies players enough that they keep up a good profit. What's to say an update is so bad that a player (or group of players) will quit forever? It's unlikely. And even if they do, Jagex will hook more to start playing or paying than the amount that quit playing or paying in their place. That's all. Well worded, but try hitting enter every once in a while. No offense. @Plasma, Jagex has already reached that point. I laughed, actually. No offense at all taken. My post is edited, by the way, to include paragraph breaks. Wallsoftext are fail.

I never heard of him until I opened this thread. I have also never heard of Zarfot or Themurder until I read yours and a few other posts in this thread, and now only know of a name, not what they are known for. There are some people who play the game for fun, and don't pay attention to what other people are doing. Most of his reasons are definitely legitimate, no doubt, and most of the people that you are targeting with your post didn't say otherwise, they were just stating that the fact that he is quitting doesn't have as great of an impact that the OP and a few others are implying. As for jealousy? When I was 15, I only spent a couple hours a day on weekdays playing games (mostly runescape), because that was all I could do with my free time those days. For him to be maxed at that age either means he spends little to no free time away from his computer, or bots, neither of which should make anyone jealous. This a thousand times over. The thread's only discussion point is the question "when will Jagex cross the line for you". That's all he needed to ask. He didn't need to tack on some pointless mush fawning over his opinion of how 4w50m3 this guy is, with the way the author approached the main subject. It's also unlikely that Jagex will ever cross the line with people as far as some in this thread as postulated (for example, allowing people to real world trade) because they are a company looking to satisfy the majority, and the majority does not wish to engage in activities that I would presume lessen the value of their gameplay. So the thread is asking people to imagine what hamfisted move Jagex will commit to get them to quit. And even if those people quit their memberships, a few more will take their place. Meaning that whatever value the author attempted to assign to the thread is lost, because for one, woox16 quitting has far less of an impact than the author hilariously tries to imply, and two, Jagex doesn't care if they lose a few members over a trivial update because the scope of what could be lost to Jagex is marginalized because they are looking to profit. The thread asks people to answer a question assuming that the update in question is negative, which is of course subjective because it applies on an individual basis. Many more people could see an update as positive and be compelled to keep playing or join or upgrade to a membership because again, Jagex looks to satisfy the majority. Obviously at times they have to compromise between satisfaction and necessity to keep the game running (the December '07 updates, for example) which would cause an undesirable loss of players, but in the long run, their move satisfies players enough that they keep up a good profit. What's to say an update is so bad that a player (or group of players) will quit forever? It's unlikely. And even if they do, Jagex will hook more to start playing or paying than the amount that quit playing or paying in their place. That's all. The above, and I have no shame in stating that woox16 having no impact in RuneScape is not a sign of jealousy, because no one could possibly be jealous in the fact that the fourteen year old spent his time levelling on a game in a short amount of time compared to people who, in the same time span over all, have pursued and accomplished more productive endeavors. I play the game for fun; it's a fallacy to assume that I'm jealous of someone who put in more time than me. I know it takes time to achieve a respected level. Why should I be jealous that I spent that time a different way? It doesn't even have to be time spent on RuneScape. Hell, maybe I got a high paying job from an interview in the hour that woox16 soloed the Corporeal Beast. What's the bigger achievement then?

I know who he is, and I know what he did, and I don't care. I don't care if he's had any impact on the game. Regardless, he has not had much of an impact except for maybe how to approach certain boss solos. He's just another maxed player brat who had his 15 minutes of fame and failed at milking it. He's one of many tens if not hundreds of players who quit after they see an update they don't like. Maybe his school work caught up with him, like others said, which compounds his pressure on himself to quit. I'm not sad for him, I'm happy but indifferent that he has chosen to quit RuneScape to pursue greater endeavors. Do I care overall that he quit? No. When I think about it, any achievement regardless of its perceived scale on a game is meaningless overall, so good for him that he quit because at least he won't milk the fact that he can mash a few buttons and click a little faster than others anymore.

First thing's first. I posted the first post I am quoting a long time ago. I ended getting muted and quit hosting the dice game for a while. (FYI, the evidence was a few lines of me typing "Dice game 60-100 x2 - illicit fun cc," as well as a few lines in my CC. There was no evidence.) I was really bored today, so I decided to go host dice game again. I quickly went up to 25m from 10m, peaking at around 56m with a new highest bet of 14m (epic stuff :D). But the same crap happened again. Seriously, a major warning to whoever is looking at this thread considering hosting the dice game. You are risking your account by doing this - I highly suggest you stop after one temporary mute, but I'm literally getting them so fast that it's not worth it anymore. There are lots of ridiculously stupid mods out there who hand out mutes for no reason. I got muted within 1 hour of starting. I'm really getting disappointed in where the quality of the PMods are headed. :mellow: </rant> I had the same thing happen to me. Right after I had to pay out a total of seven million which dropped my cash pile down to 5.4M >.> I had two offenses for my mute, which is really stupid. The first offense is item scamming. Evidence? "Dice game 60x2 90x3" The second offense is ridiculous. Offensive language. Evidence? "Dice Game 60x2 90x3" ... Despite their claims, Jagex has convinced me that they do NOT look at abuse reports. My mute wears off at 9PM my time today so I'll be sure to make good use of it by getting back in the game :P

You know an update sucks when people are more excited over the graphical update of trees over the update itself.

Just curious, what are the rules you use when hosting your dice game? Do you find that it takes a while to get a dice game started? Also, how much money did you have before you started hosting the game? I am thinking of hosting a dice game, but I don't have a lot of cash on me (White pile). Where do you host this game, f2p or p2p, varrock, etc? Ah. Thanks for asking. I use 60x2 90x3 dice rules. That means of course, 60 and over is double your cash, while 90 and over is triple your cash. Some dice hosts reroll on exactly 60 or 90 or whatever winning number they use as a standard, so when they reroll you actually lose your cash. I think that's a rather unfair thing to do because it's advertised as those numbers and above implicitly, so I go with the implication that it's 60+ for a win. It does sometime take a while to get customers depending on the competition around you and how snazzy you look. I don an investigator's suit with a candy cane, and I still manage to pull in hundreds of thousands of coins in the timespan of a few minutes. The real thing for me to worry about is when you have level 110+ competition whose wealth exponentially surpasses your own. Take a word of warning though, even the most legit looking players can be scams. Why, just yesterday, I lost 200k to a level 126 who sported a divine spirit shield, a red dragon mask, full dragon with platebody, and a firecape. Just logged out even though I won twice my bet. I luckily managed to recover it in a few minutes, though. Have your guard up, and don't bet too much cash if you feel you might lose it. When I started really getting into the business which was last Saturday, I had less than 30K. A few hours later, I had 1.6M. The next day, I had 6M. I ended yesterday with 9.2M. Now I have 12.2M. My average tends to be 1-3M profit a day ranging from a few minutes of work (five minutes to half an hour) to a couple of hours. I host in World 1 and 3 Varrock beside the West Bank and Grand Exchange where the other dice hosts are. I always show my cash pile to show I'm legit for 50k+ bets. That's the way you gain trust and build a reputation for being a legitimate host. As Jive said, it's not worth it to scam since the odds of the dice will always be in the host's favor. You also do not want to pressure the person to bet more cash then they want to, or else you may end up completely losing their business. That's why I put no minimum limits for cash, so people can bet what they want. I encourage people to bet more if they clearly have much more cash than what they're betting, but I don't force them to. Sometimes I put up a maximum cash limit depending on how large my cash pile is. I generally don't use one since the bets usually don't exceed 500k, and I have 24X that so, yeah. Also, learn when to cut your own losses. This is essential to being a successful dice host looking to profit. When you're hosting, if the customer wins cash, you pay them. But you do not have to take the person's next bet if you feel it's going to run you out of cash. Just politely refuse and say you need some cash in reserve to pay to lower-stake gamblers. Generally, the extremely rich hosts do not need to worry about this unless they are hosting high-stakes dice. I know of someone on world one who semi-regularly hosts 50M+ stakes. The West Bank area in Varrock for F2P is excellent for hosting dice (well, it's pretty much the only place to in F2P). Learn your ropes. Figure out what time most players are on at, and use those population patterns to work with your schedule. If you host in the mid afternoon where most players are on at that time, you're more likely to get customers. Of course, dress as snazzy as possible. It doesn't need to be an expensive get up. My set up costs literally nothing (all clue fest items) and I still attract customers. Always check to see if the customer you're playing with is in your clan chat. They can't see what you roll if they're not in your chat, so if you actually roll below the minimum winning number, they might not believe you even if you're being honest, and you lose their and potentially other people's business. If they're not in your chat by the time you're going to roll, tell them to join and if they don't or can't, give them back their cash. So basically, find out what times of the day are most profitable for you to host on, dress as attractively as possible (doesn't mean it has to be expensive!), show cash if asked. If you feel you're going to lose cash on a bet relative to your cash pile, don't take the bet. Place maximum cash bets accordingly to prevent losing too much cash on a single or series of bets. A minimum cash bet rule may help too if you're looking for that element of excitement. We all know how boring it is to give a newb a 3k win because he bet 1k. If you're member, you have a wider variety of populated areas to explore to host dice games. It's a good idea to host dice and flower games on popular worlds near banks where cash is readily available, so Falador W2 is a good choice as well. Other areas, you may find fit this description as you travel around finding a place to attract the most customers. But as a rule of thumb, Varrock W.B. and Falador Park are the best places to host games. Regards advertising, you may want to get a friend or pay someone to advertise for you for a bit if you can't do it yourself. Be patient when you're advertising. Customers will come if you look legitimate enough. A high combat level helps, of course. Run around a bit when advertising if one area of the area is stagnant in customer flow. Those are pretty much the general rules outlined regards hosting dice/flower games. If you have enough cash to start with to be successful (2M minimum, I recommend), you'll do well in your endeavors, since the odds of the dice are aligned with you as the host.

Thanks to the dice game, I managed to achieve my first green cash pile. Made about three million up from 9200k today to rest at about 12.2M. Took no more than a couple of hours. I'm thinking I can probably get around 30-50M by the time I get members again in the summer, if I do the minimal amount of work with a little luck.

Made another 700k profit in 5 minutes. Basically 1M made in 15 minutes =-/ If this is free to play and I make this much cash, how insane is it in members? o.O