Sir_Kurity

Its only borderline relevant to the discussion, and as both you and i have acknowledged, its impossible to prove either way. I'll ask you once again, do you think a 97 fishing requirement would make the game funner to play? Thats my primary argument here, and seeing as this is a game fun should be the primary concern (and not the e-peen of high level players).

Pretty sure ive never said no one likes fishing, nor is it the basis of my argument, it seems as if you need a lesson in reading. My argument is based on the belief that excessive quest requirements add nothing to the game, and if anything, take away from it because it compels tens or even hundreds of hours of grind. I'm pretty sure my argument still stands. All youve done is proven something which is borderline relevant to the discussion anyway (proven that somethings impossible to prove, which seems a bit pointless to be honest).

The argument isnt "f-u your a high level" its that excessive requirements do nothing except make high levels feel special, while adding nothing to the actual content or game. If anything, your argument is the one shafting the low level players, by excluding content from them until they excessively grind to X level for Y requirement. Exactly. So it makes you feel special or it doesnt make you feel special, either way, its not adding to the content of the game. Maybe the journey of 200 hours of fishing grind is fun and joyful for you...

Hopefully jagex never releases 90+ quest requirements just so the high levels can feel special. :thumbup:

I oppose excessively high requirements, he doesn't :), thats why we are arguing. I wouldn't mind this. I used all fired up as a good example, the quest has relative low requirements, the rewards have high requirements. (In other words, everyone has fun, and the high levels can feel special about clicking that tinderbox ~20000+ times) Well thats the thing, should people who like quests be compelled to excessively grind into the 90's for an arbitary requirement. As i said before, i don't mind a little grind, but theres a point where it gets too much. Yea, and its borderline relevant to the discussion because your just nitpicking once you ran out of arguments.

Different colored boots/capes/e-peen enlargers are not content in the same way that quests are, when will people understand this?

Which in the end is really just nitpicking because he ran out of arguments. I don't see the point your trying to make here. Its like randomly asking him to prove that the majority of people find 200 hours of fishing fun and claiming victory if he cannot prove it, its borderline relevant to the topic at hand, its very hard if not impossible to prove, but at the end of the day its really just nitpicking while adding nothing to the actual argument. Basically "omg you can't prove fishing is boring lol i win now" *Sticks fingers in ears and whistles loudly to self*

Lack of high level content is another issue altogethor. To be honest though, hard quests would give something for high levels to do. As a high level you can beat boss fights without as much fear of dieing as someone who is a lower level. So basically you wan't high level content for the sake of exclusvity. I'm glad someones being honest for once, you, as a near maxed player, want exclusive quests that few others can do, so you can feel special. Though my must ask you this question, is a quest any more fun if it requires 90+ requirements than if it requires 60+ requirements. - Its the same quest, with the same bosses, with the same puzzles, same everything, only the grind requirement is significantly lower. In other words, its the same level of fun, the only difference being that you can feel special about having your 90+ skills that take maybe 100-200+ hours to get. Now is this a fully justifiable reason for having incredibly high requirements? I can't answer this, what i can say is that it won't improve the actual content, and thus the game, in any way. Wait wait wait a second... I said this... You said this... I said this... And then you say this... So basically, we are back at the starting point. All high requirements do is make high level "elite" players, feel special because they have a greater tolerance for 200 hours of boredom than most other players.

Theres a different between some grinding, and watching your fisher man move up and down for 200 hours with minimal interaction on your part. Now tell me, does that 200 hour grind improve the game? Thats all im asking here. I mean, people always call WoW a grindfest, but a single skill to 97, of which people are suggesting a quest requirement. Takes more time than it takes to max out in WoW.

Why not? Its an easy way to gather results. Some people may not wish to vote yes or no in a public thread for fear of being ridiculed, some people simply might not even bother to post. A poll on the other hand is very easy to do. Wait, did i just hear that? Did you seriously just compare fishing in runescape to real life, have you even fished in real life? Its completely different from fishing in runescape.

You said any skill, fishing is a skill. Really your just not happy with anything. I'm asking if fishing is fun, that IS the right question. Ok then, even if the majority liked fishing for 200 hours, would this actually improve the game in any way? If people liked fishing there is no reason they can't train fishing and have fun, quest requirement or no. A quest requirement in the 97's doesnt improve there fun in any way as opposed to a requirement in the 60's. On the other hand, those that don't like fishing have a 200 hour grind until they can actually get to the fun content, which for them, is anything but fun.

I guess it comes down as to weather it will improve the game. Requireing 200 hours of fishing grind is not the kind of "hard" im looking for in a grandmaster quest. An epic boss battle is the kind of hard im looking for. So they don't even achieve that. When you look at it, excessive requirements don't really acheive anything. Theres no reason it cant be 60, etc. Only difference is, 60 doesnt require insanely excessive grind to the point of insanity. I'm not even going to bother answering because your just nitpicking at this point. "LOLOLOL PROVE IT OR YOUR WRONG" All im going to say is that excessive requirements don't make the game any more fun, even if, god forbid people actually had fun fishing for 200 hours. And if the majority of runescape players actually like watching the fisherman bob up and down for 200 hours, i'm going to have to question the mental health of my fellow player.

The best way to increase the difficulty of a quest is to make harder bosses, harder puzzles, etc. Excessive requirements do nothing but increase the preliminary grind before the quest, while adding nothing to the actual content.

Did i ever say 100% shared my opinion? I'm arguing that the majoritys opinion holds more weight than anyone elses. Does the majority think training fishing for 200 hours is fun, I'l pretty dam sure they don't, and incase you feel like nitpicking some more i made a poll to find out. Yes im aware jagex is probably going to increase grind, thats not going to stop me from arguing against it for the good of the game. Theres no reason it can't be done with 60 fishing instead of 97 fishing. It may or may not make slightly less sense, but hey, reducing excessive grind is better for the game in my book. I'm pretty sure my argument is that it doesnt improve the game in anyway. Random 97+ skill requirements don't improve the game in any way. Excessive grind does not improve the game in anyway, all they do is make high levels feel special about themselves. As i said... :), i knew this would come up. As a pure, who actually skills far more often than doing combat ironically enough, the main barrier for pures is the quest rewards, specifically defence rewards. Personally i think they should stay (some things like 1 def turmoil claw rushers with b-gloves are just too overpowered to think about :ohnoes:) tl;dr, i want the game to be as fun as possible. 97 fishing requirements don't add to that fun. Yea, and where did i claim that 100% of people hated fishing, as i said, equally flawed logic.

Yea i thought it was a stupid question myself, but im doing it cause Obtaurian keeps hassling me...

Your really just arguing technicalitys now... You don't see me hassling you for proof about every statement you make. Its reasonable to assume that most people do not enjoy watching there character bob up and down over a fishing spot for 200 hours, but if you really need proof, i'll make a poll. [equally flawed logic] Also prove that all people find fishing fun. Go go go, i assume you obviously have proof that all people find fishing fun! [/equally flawed logic] If the only reason you train skills is because your motivated by quests, thats a problem with the skill. Having excessive requirements (70's isnt that bad though) don't actually add anything to the game outside forcing grind, so why should they be there?

Simple question, simple answer. Would fishing for 200 hours (and this is the fishing, not the external stimuli like watching movies/tv/forums at the same time), be fun to you?

So one person by some miracle finds it fun, lets throw the 200 hour grind requirement for EVERYONE. Hey, you know what i find fun? Ive always liked camping at the body rune spawn for 200 hours and picking up body runes. Lets make it a new quest requirement because i find it fun.

Apparently he thinks training skills like fishing for 200 hours is fun, and a perfectly reasonable arbitary quest requirement for the sake of exclusivity while adding nothing to actual gameplay. I never said all skills are equally tedious and boring, where are you getting this? Many skills are incredibly tedious though, on varying levels, especially when you train to the 90+ range.

Well your in for disapointment then. Fun is subjective so it can never be "proved" that its not fun. What i can say though, is that watching your fisherman bob up and down on a fishing spot for 200 hours is anything but stimulating. I mean, you could pretty much play a video on a 5 second loop and thats pretty much what your looking at while your fishing. Along with minimal interaction on your part, maybe a click every 30 seconds and a mousekey powerdrop/deposit box bank everytime your inventory is full. If thats your definition of fun, then all power to you. But saying that applys to the majority is false. Fishing is just a random example. I'm not specifically opposing a 97 fishing requirement, im opposing the grind, regardless of weather its 95 cooking, smithing, fishing, or whatever. (admittedly cooking would be alot less painful, but still).

Yea, quests currently not being hard is enough issue altoghethor. Its almost hilarious how many bosses you can beat as a level 50 by just safespotting and/or praying and pretty much going AFK.

A 200 hour boredom commitment should not be the requirement to do a quest. I don't find it boring in its current form. There isnt that much excessive grind between the fun parts at the moment and im having quite an enjoyable time. Having to grind 97 fishing for a quest i like however, would not be fun. Um, i never said add them to everything. I'm saying that if you want content for elite players, it should be in the form of hard boss fights and puzzles, not in the form of 200 hour grind requirements. Fishing is my second highest skill behind fletching, and despite this it still would take over 160 hours of grinding in order to get to 97. Anyone with lower fishing :ohnoes: Thats exactly the point. Some of us do quests for the fun, not just the reward you know? A slightly cooler looking cape does nothing but slightly enlarge your e-peen (even then with the capes so common as they are). A quest is a challenge, which offers hard bosses, perplexing puzzles, and most of all fun. That is so not the point, it wouldnt be that hard to say the fires only need 70 mage. The only reason to say they need 94 mage is to add an arbitary grind requirement. As i said before... I agree to an extent. I think there should be a limit on the amount of grind. I mean, to get just 1 fishing level above 90 takes what, 10-20 hours. If you need to do say, 2-3 fishing levels... That could easily run into the 50+ hours.

As you can or should understand, i can't go into any more detail on these forums. Pfft.

Jagex isnt the core of the problem but temp bans for botters (without any stat revert or similar) was definately a step backwards. This is along with already existing problems with the skill in general. They may as well be encouraging bots.

Elite requirements do not equal elite content. Even though elite diarys require elite requirements, they are not elite content. Anything but, they are not challenging in any way, and your only barrier to finishing say, the falador diary is your ability to tolerate boredom. Elite quests should have elite content, extremely hard boss battles, hard puzzles, etc etc. They should not have "elite" requirements which require excessive grind while actually adding little or nothing to the actual quest.