Ts_Stormrage

LOL, jjjon... It's then the question which one you think weighs heaviest... Also, I editted the first post to encourage people to listen to arguments and possibly change their votes if they change their minds...

[spoiler=quotes] This is a really common argument in RS for some reason. People don't blame Jagex for making the GE ridiculously easy to manipulate, they blame players for doing the only logical thing and taking advantage of it. They don't blame Jagex for not being harsh enough about banning bots, they blame players who bot when they know the worst that'll happen is a temp ban and maybe some stat resetting. And now, they don't blame Jagex for encouraging players to vote multiple times by making a vote that allows it, but instead blame the players who did exactly what they'd be expected to do. The fact is, when you're in charge of controlling or organizing people, it's more often than not your own damn fault if those people don't do what you want. The key is to make what you want them to do be the best course of action- if somebody can profit from doing something you'd rather they didn't (manipulation clans, spam voting), then you need to CHANGE SOMETHING so that it's no longer a smart thing to do (remove GE limits, implement a login on the vote). In the case of the vote, anyone who thought for half a second about what a player who wants the wilderness back is going to do would realize, oh hey, they're going to write a script to vote over and over. That is Jagex's fault because is was a direct and inescapable result of making a petition in which anyone can vote an infinite number of times. Why blame players for doing exactly what Jagex all but instructed them to do? This is a really common argument in RS for some reason. People don't blame Jagex for making the GE ridiculously easy to manipulate, they blame players for doing the only logical thing and taking advantage of it. They don't blame Jagex for not being harsh enough about banning bots, they blame players who bot when they know the worst that'll happen is a temp ban and maybe some stat resetting. And now, they don't blame Jagex for encouraging players to vote multiple times by making a vote that allows it, but instead blame the players who did exactly what they'd be expected to do. The fact is, when you're in charge of controlling or organizing people, it's more often than not your own damn fault if those people don't do what you want. The key is to make what you want them to do be the best course of action- if somebody can profit from doing something you'd rather they didn't (manipulation clans, spam voting), then you need to CHANGE SOMETHING so that it's no longer a smart thing to do (remove GE limits, implement a login on the vote). In the case of the vote, anyone who thought for half a second about what a player who wants the wilderness back is going to do would realize, oh hey, they're going to write a script to vote over and over. That is Jagex's fault because is was a direct and inescapable result of making a petition in which anyone can vote an infinite number of times. Why blame players for doing exactly what Jagex all but instructed them to do? This ^ EEspecially when you consider that they ALREADY HAVE the tech to make a proper poll...

So jagex made a mistake then by allowing that, while they have the technology to make a proper poll?

Uhm, rach... tis the 9th today, not 7th...

I may have to add that this has nothing to do with the outcome of the petition/poll/whatever the hell we have now... This is all about the way they handled "gettign the support" from the community...

Before you vote!!!: KNOW THAT THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE OUTCOME OF THE WILDERNESS & FREE TRADE POLL This is about how Jagex is getting the support it apparently needs to get these updates implemented!!! Your vote here does not mean you are for or against the Old Wildy and Unbalanced Trade, this is to see if you agree with the way they handled it! Note that you may always change your vote after listening to arguments (this can be done here, unlike at Jagex' poll)... In light of my Tip.it Times article of this week, there have been some quite heated discussions on wether or not the whole first version of the poll for Old Wilderness and Unbalanced Trade was intentional or not... I wanted to see what you believe... The story is a familiar one. Jagex brings out a poll to gauge support for the changes, and that poll needs nothing but a name to get your vote registered. After less then 48 hours and almost 1.6m votes it got changed to a proper poll like the one we've seen on their main site before... Jagex stated it was intentional to have a petition first, and a proper poll after that, because they wanted to gauge the support for the changes first. Since the removal of these features caused a lot of peopel to leave, Jagex wanted to make sure that, should they reverse the changes, it would not happen again... However... I do not believe this is the case... I believe that Jagex made a mistake in running a 'petition' first where one could enter every name imaginable... Some people say that the lack of a password barrier was done so that the ones who had forgotten their password could also express their support, but we all know it takes all of 3 minutes to get your password back... I believe that Jagex at some point figured that they NEEDED to bring back the old and popular content in order to get more revenue from subscriptions and banner hits, and therefor would make a poll that would pretty much guarantee the support needed... They didn't expect the fraud would happen on such a massive scale, and therefor after 2 days it was quickly changed to a proper poll... And then still not where one could select one of 4 options: yes to both Wild and Trade, yes to wild no to trade, no to wild yes to trade, or no to both... What I want to know is how you think about the way this poll was done and Jagex' reactions to the changes they made... In short, do you believe: A: Jagex is telling the truth about the first version, and that it was meant to see how responsive the masses would be. B: Jagex is lying about the reasons they have for not doing a proper poll the first time around, and cannot own up to their mistake. C: Jagex is incompetent because if they did mean to see how many players were interested, they would've done a password-requiring petition. D: other, plz explain

There will be; watch this space!

It would make sense if Nex would hurt you even more (just like Zanik's Crossbow spec) if you wore any god-related armor (since they all imprisoned him and all)...

My problem with the poll is that its obvious to anyone with half a brain that someone dropped the ball, or worse, someone intended for the first phase (version) to be the real deal... If someone dropped the ball, then Jagex should not act like it was intentional, but they do... So,if it was supposed to be the real deal, then we know who Jagex is looking at for support these days, don't we? People who are willing to cheat to get the things they want... Fact remains, 1.2m votes in 24 hours vs. 835k votes in 9 days... We all know how those first million of votes got into the "petition"...

Let's do a thought experiment here... A chicken would think of us as evil, because we as humans eat them by the masses... Yet because of our hunger for their tasty meat, it means that there are over 8 BILLION chickens alive in this world at any given point in time... A lion that kills and eats a couple of humans of an african village is soon hunted down... Not to mention any other lions that get caught in the crossfire... In this case the simple hungry lion is considered evil and us poor chicken eating humans are not... So we can establish that evil is only in the eye of the beholder... Back to the Zaros case; this means that everyone we know of would think of Zaros as evil because he might have hurt them or their interests, directly or indirectly... Certain gods have certain ideals, none of which are completely evil or good... Saradomin surely is not the god of good, but his ideals come pretty close to what most of us would think of as good thigns... Protection prayers are granted by him, they make us live longer, so we think Saradomin is the god of good... But we all know tht Saradomin and his followers aren't the goody-two-shoes that we might believe him to be... Why else would he align himself with the very people that caused destruction to your lands? Sure, Zamorak and his allies turned against Zaros who was apparently an even bigger threat, and therefor an opportunity for Saradomin, but would this not fall udner the heading of opportunism..? Time and again Saradomin shows that there is definitely a difference between advocating peace and preventing war... I judge Saradomin to be the god of order, and willing to go to great lengths to keep this order... Humans tend to be content with the way things are if they aren't horribly terrifying, or much much better elsewhere (such as within the kingdom of Zaros from before the godwars), and that is why they are attracted to Saradomin... A close ally of Saradomin is Armadyl... He claims himself to be the god of justice, but there cannot be justice without freedom and equality... Equality and freedom basicly means that "I can have what you have" is the code to live by, and in an utopian world, this might be true... Another form of justice, one which I think Armadyl's attitude is much closer to, is the eye-for-an-eye kind of justice... This is nothing short of vengeance, and in my point of view, not all honorable either... So far that is 2 supposed gods of goodness debunked... But let's look at the other side too... Zamorak has long been thought of to be the god of evil, although recently people have accepted him to be more attuned to chaos and destruction... Chaos and destruction are not the first things you think about when you consider general "goodness"... But not all destruction is bad... I take as example the aboriginals of australia that still burn the forests in order to make room for new plants... These young plants then encourage wildlife to come and feedthemselves on the succulant plants, which in turn feed the aboriginals... Do we consider this destruction? The same goes for the example of chaos... If you have been oppressed, slandered and pushed almost completely out of your lands, you'd want to cause a little chaos too... Zamorak is doing exactly this... In fact there are many occasions in many quests that you can find friendly and helpful Zamorakians... One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, so could Zamorak be the god of true freedom? Bandos is an interesting case as there was never any doubt that he is the god that represents certain races (much like Armadyl represents the Aviantese)... Goblins, Hobgoblins, Orks, Ogres (and all variations) and maybe even Trolls and Cyclopses all worship their Big High Wargod believing that they may one day lead them to victory (over what?)... To me though, this is the god of the stupid... Not only do seem most of these races to be of below average intelligence... But much like today's religious people they too believe that some powerful being will take them to some magical place where everything is awesome... Moreover, they will do whatever anyone who claims to speak in their deity's name tells them to do... The ONLY difference between the poor goblins of RuneScape and the people from my real life example is that the poor goblins have some tangible evidence that their god might exist... There we go; both good and evil (sort of) debunked... For the tl;dr people: There is never an absolute morality, nor should there be... Good and evil are terms that you may apply only to your own viewpoints, but never label someone or something else with them... Good and evil are in the eye of the beholder, and no book, person or or set of beliefs can lay claim to being good or label something to be evil... You can only say "I think that x is good/evil, because..." and finish your argument with "but that's just my opinion"... Therefor, Zaros cannot be evil, nor is Guthix any more evil if he decides to remake the world and doom us all along with it... PS: I can if this commander/general/god/someone claims that they are indeed his minions... Otherwise they should at least be fired/killed...

Zaros is not the god of evil... Jagex specifically said this... He might be evil, but he is not the god of evil...

Bilrach is Zamorak's most powerful ally (at least he says he is), and considering he is attempting to release Zamorak back into the world (?16,17,733,61852274"]from what we can tell of the notes we found in Daemonheim/Strange Power event) not somebody to be messed with easily (Bill also created K'ril Tsutsaroth, btw)... Yet Azzanadra (Zaros' right hand man who didn't need almost an entire millenium to contact his master) still laughs at how pathetically weak Bilrach really is, and Azzanadra has missed MANY Rituals of Rejuvination... All Mahjarrat have one thing in common though; they thirst for power, ever ever more... This is what has lead Lucien to aquire himself the same weapon that Zamorak used to kill/banish Zaros and "borrow" some of that sweet ole godhood from him... On top of that, Lucien has the Stone of Jas, but if he is looking to supplant Zamorak, or just be a god himself too, who knows... Zemouregal seems to be on good terms (for Mahjarrat) with both Bilrach and Lucien... This could lead one to conclude that Bilrach, Lucien and Zemouregal are in Zamorak's camp (most of all because they helped Zamorak betray Zaros)... So there's turmoil going to happen... Not exactly sure who's on who's side, but Saradomin would do well by letting Zaros and his allies (theres more than just Azzanadra, think along the lines of Sliske and Ali the Wise/Wahisietel) ruin the ritual for Zamorak and his allies... And wether or not Zaros is evil remains to be seen... He is often referred to as The Empty Lord, and I personally believe that this refers to his morals, or rather, the lack thereof... It might be so that Guthix is one to preserve the balance by metaphorically speaking adding a bit of weight to the left and right end of the scale when needed, where Zaros effectivly removes said weights... We do not know how powerful Saradomin is as we've never seen any of his stuff surface back in lore or quests, nor do we know much of how it came to be that so many of the world today worships him... We can to some extend measure how powerful Zaros is, though... Everything that has the 'Ancient' tag is directly related to him, and considering that one of his followers granted us access to a whole new spellbook and prayerset, tells me that Zaros is at least as powerful as Saradomin... The only reason why there is not much left standing of Zaros today, is because he was taken out before the godwars started and many powerful Mahjarrat switched sides from Zaros to Zamorak... If Zaros was there when the Godwars started, Sentissten would not have been rebranded as Saranthium by Saradominists, to be then laid to waste by Zamorakians into the rubble that we se today at the Digsite... Hope this helped... EDIT Actually, Zaros was indeed stabbed in the back with the Staff of Armadyl (a weapon currently in Lucien's posession) by Zamorak... But even with that staff imbedded in his spine, Zaros' combat capabilities were far superior to that of Zamorak... It was when Zaros lifted Zamorak up in the air by his throat that he lost his footing and fell... When they both hit the ground, Zaros now had the staff completely through and through himself, also impaling Zamorak... The rest is history...

Magic (Ancient Magic specifically)... And yeah I agree that this new bow will break much like Chaotic crap does atm... Anywho; 15 combat moves: I'm thinking Poison, Disease or other stat draining thing, Melee, Range, Magic, Stomping if you run under him, something teleport-ish related (or knock-back), unequip your armor and such, Freezing you, Dragon-Breath-like thing, can heal itself + leuitenants, Turns off your prayer, Prays himself, drops mines out of his ass, summons critters to help him, and rots your food... Oh and on top of that, most of these attacks will be multi-target attacks :D

TBH; the 4 armies working together to remove any trace of Zaros seemed unlikely to me in the first place... I suppose this was in the short aftermath after Zaros himself got pwned, and Team Saradomin+Armadyl and Team Zamorak+Bandos were still allies against Zaros (enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of crap)... When Zaros was thoroughly gone and so were most of his supporters and followers; both teams turned on eachother again... IF there is a return of Zaros, it will cause a lot of turmoil again: Zamorak will be Zaros' first target, but there are other players like Zemouregal and Lucien who may seek to supplant Zamorak as well (or just aid him, who knows)... Knowing Saradomin, he may just stay out of it all and deal with whoever is left after the dust settles... Armadyl may yet be a god, but he has no supporters left on this world, so I doubt we'll hear so much as a peep out of him...

inb4 "SELL YOUR ARMADYL AND BANOD WHILE YOU CAN!!" shouts...

Petitions don't last just a day and a half... Someone dropped the ball... You know it, I know it, everybody knows it, even Jagex is does...

Ring world: you misunderstood it then... I am indifferent about it (leaning to no, see below) as RuneScape functioned fine for me personally back in 2007... But there are a couple of points that HAVE to be made: 1. I completely disagree with the way they handled these polls... Jonananaas said it best; They act like it's all part of the plan but anyone with half a brain sees that it wasn't... If they really wanted to rack up numbers like that, they wouldn't have shut the first poll down after less then 24 hours... 2. You contradict yourself... First you say that those 700k missing players (or a chunk thereof) could have forgotten their password and therefor have not voted, but after that you say they could make a new account to vote again with... If they could no longer access their account, it takes them less then an hour to recover your password, so that BS argument of yours doesn't fly either... Everything in the way this poll has been handled stinks; Jagex seemed to want an answer from us, and they were making damn sure they were getting the answer they wanted us to give them... If this ISN'T the case then someone lost their minds there, and yes, then I can deduce (in your case its asuming) that this person got fired... 3. Like I said I'm indifferent to the free trade and wildy coming back, but that is only because the pro's and con's hold eachohther in balance... If Jagex can truly deal with RWT and botting; then why are they not doing so already? If Jagex can SHOW me they can handle it and I'll gladly vote yes... Hell yes... Tell me the votes you need and I'll work day and night to get the poll the way they want it... But no... Jagex have already admitted that botting and RWT will always be part of their game... It is STILL a part of their game, even with all the changes they made TO the game (RWT still exists in the form that you pay other people to go on your account and get you the XP and/or GP)... Add in free trade, and voila; gold farmers will ALSO return because they can now give you 2bil for a needle... Let's make it easier, why don't we... The only reason I haven't completely landed on a no vote is that I do not know what restrictions there will be... I''m hoping more and more limited trade the more black marks you have, or somethign along those lines... Finally, let it be clear that I do not need to discredit Jagex at all, they are doing a damn fine job of that themselves... My criticism of that is also not neccisary to validate my opinion of this whole ordeal, but it did weigh in... This is where you started asuming, btw (pot? kettle?)... Jonanananas: Thanks for taking an interest in my story, I'm glad you enjoyed reading it as much as I did writing it... With more time I could perhaps revise it a bit that it'd be even better :) I will however be returning to my regularly scheduled programming for now (sure have a klot to talk about as there will be 3 months between my last and next editorial), but who knows what the future holds...

TBH; The fact that this poll has gathered almost 500k votes (yes, no AND dont care votes combined) in THREE DAYS.., Compared with Jagex' statement that they have had "1.2m votes in less then 24 hours" on the first poll/version/petition/whatever you want to call it so it doesn't look like it was really just a scam.., Tells me exactly what kind of people would really really want the wilderness and free trade back... I'm not saying EVERY person that wants the wildy and free trade back the way it was is a cheating and botting /b/tard, but it sure is odd that when a bit of verification is required, 700k people suddenly don't bother to "express their opinion" anymore... Worse is that Jagex claims it as a victory (it's STILL on the front page): "The highest number of votes we've ever recieved for any player poll" [cabbage]... Jagex has lost all credibility, and they can't borrow some from polls like these anymore... Furthermore, you can't go around saying: "most people are voting yes, so accept it even if you don't like it"... That is an absolutely ridiculous statement to make, as everyone understands that this is the way it works... BUT... Stunts like these is what make some people lose faith in Jagex... If Jagex hadn't blunderred terribly on this one, if this had been done properly, the no-voters would have accepted it and moved on... I'm quite serious that it wouldn't be a wrong move to name and shame some more people; the person that thought this poll up... Jagex' should really come out and say "we're sorry we handled things this way, and the responsible people for this have been fired"... That is, if they want to save whats left of their reputation of supposedly listening to their subscribers...

So they "sort of" admit they cant handle botters and RWT, and therefor roll over? If that's the case, then please rollback the Pure ess update too :D Oh and hawkxs; thanks for the artwork :) From now on I will return to my regular schedule of a once-a-month-feature, unless I find inspiration again for such a fan-fic...

I'm not a fan of the wilderness coming back, but if it removes stupid statues, I'm all for it... I do not think free trade should come back though... Scamming is one of the things I do not miss... And one point stands; if the things that were about to kill Jagex in 2007 still remained, and Jagex is still here, and Wildy and Free Trade made it much much worse, why bring it back? Why not test these RWT and botting detection things BEFORE wildy and free trade are back???

Not neccisarily an ethic group, but yeah I can see how that can be interpreted as such... They are humans, but consider themselves a different people than, say, the ones from Ardounge... The difference is mostly culturally... And Gielenor is the world on which RuneScape happens...

And to your other question: A fremennik is a "tribe" of humans that live north of Kandarin (even north of Seer's village)... The town of Rellekka is their capitol and their people have expanded (and even cut ties with the original clan) around Gielenor... Barbarians also descend from the Fremenniks... They are thought to be the first humans to settle this world...

People are suppose to get killed by pkers when they go into the wild. Just saying. No, there are those that legitimately want to kill those that are legitimately taking a risk. However, there are players that just want an easy kill. You know the ones that lurked below level 20 ready to teleport at a moments notice attacking abyss runners. These are the same types that if they could, would camp out at Lumbridge picking off respawned and new characteres. Wait a second, wanting to kill innocent people in the wild who are not trying to fight was never suppose to be part of it? Last time i checked, rc pking, and killing anybody for the lulz was part of what made the wild the dangerous place it is SUPPOSE TO BE. I didn't know peple who rc'd using the abyss were suppose to be able to do it mindlessly without any fear of dying. I could have sworn that it was purposely designed for pkers to be part of the risk when skilling in the wild. Unlike people at lumbridge, going into the wild meant you were aware that if you weren't geared to be attacked by a pker you needed to gtfo. The current status of the wilderness as an extension of safe areas for people to rc, do their clues, or do their greater demon slayer tasks is an abomination, not how it's suppose to be. I think NukeMarine says that he thinks that that too is wrong... there were quite a few things wrong with the old wild too you know...

So can anyone tell me why they used a completely new page instead of a mechanic that already exist on their own bloody homepage? You know; the one where we might actually express our dissatisfaction and/or agreement in an orderly and organised fashion, rather than a spamfest of who can type names the fastest... How can Jagex possibly lend any credibility from this poll-tition? I remember a day when Jagex admitted that if less then 5% of the RS population liked something, they said it needed changing... A poll some time later showed that less then 3% actually thought that the Karil's Barrows set was the best one in their opinion... Has it changed? Nope... For this wild and trade thing, its a wait and see... But I don't blame anyone who, as a customer, refuses to be treated like they are currently by a company... (yes im hinting at people quitting)

People are purposefully rigging an already fraudulent (and therefor meaningless) poll... If anything shows more that RuneScape is completely ruined by people who can't play fair, it is this... I think Jagex is indeed trying to get into the Guiness Book of Records with a "most cheated" mention...