Signature rules need adjustment

[hohto]

Few days ago my signature got removed and I pmed Tip.IT staff about it. After hearing it was removed because I was quoting Varg Vikernes, I read rules and found out there are no lines saying you can't quote certain people in your signature. Without proper rules we're balancing on a razor sharp knife; if you can't quote him in signature, can you quote him in your texts? Can you success his songs and albums?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My point is that we seriously need new rules. You obviously changed your rules within few weeks as I had the text "I would rather die fighting for what I believe in, than live for anything else." for over 1 year and 1600 posts before it was removed. Maybe it would be time for updating the rule page too so we even can know what's ok and what not.

[Parabola]

That's interesting, I can't imagine how that could be against any of the rules. If it's about the word 'believe' then there are plenty of things one can believe in other than religion - equality for men and women, that abortion is wrong, that you don't want to be part of the EU etc.

[Dragontotem]

Oh.. That doesn't sound like a fair deletion to me.. :?

[Albosky]

If your signature actually was

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"I would rather die fighting for what I believe in, than live for anything else."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

then it wouldn't have been deleted, but thats far from what it said according to the report.

[Dragontotem]

If your signature actually was

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"I would rather die fighting for what I believe in, than live for anything else."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

then it wouldn't have been deleted, but thats far from what it said according to the report.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I remember looking at hohto's signature and it was

 

 

 

"I would rather die fighting for what I believe in, than live for anything else."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I dont know what the report said, but IMHO this was what Hohto's sig said.

[Parabola]

That's what I'd always noticed his signature to be anyway.

[____]

Yea, I remember it being word for word:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"I would rather die fighting for what I believe in, than live for anything else."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It sticks because it's very close to my thoughts which is:

 

 

 

"Live for what you believe in - Die fighting for it."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Means essentially the same thing; just slightly different wording..

[Mercifull]

Like Rick and Parabola, I have seen Hohoto's signature many many times and all I can remember is the image hes currently got in there and the quote as posted. I dont recally anyhitng bad being in there? Perhaps the administrator that removed it made a mistake, only human?

[hohto]

If your signature actually was

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"I would rather die fighting for what I believe in, than live for anything else."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

then it wouldn't have been deleted, but thats far from what it said according to the report.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a reply I got from a certain admin after I pmed one moderator. I don't give out any names in public so I hope it's ok to quote a private message.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am replying with regard to your PM to *mod* regarding the removal of your Signature. The reason behind the removal was due to the comment regarding Varg Vikernes you had posted in your Signature.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Due to the history of Varg Vikernes it was deemed as inapropriate to use his name in your Signature.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Due to this I removed all of the information posted which also included the image thta you mentioned in your PM to *mod*.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If any part of a Signature breaks our Rules then all images and text are removed. The picture part of your Signature was fine so please feel free to add that back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And the sig was the image I got at the moment, that text and the name of Vikernes as I was quoting him.

[Parabola]

It takes a fair amount of effort to deem that inappropriate.

[Cruiser]

Wow. If we're going to start removing quotes like that its time to start removing all the half dressed anime sigs too. Should probably remove my smiley face sig too because of the things it could be used to imply...

[Mercifull]

I am offended by Cruisers sig that has the sport car in it. It promotes fast and thus dangerous driving and gives a bad impression to the users of this forum who feel it is "cool" to speed. People could be seriously injured in an accident, or even killed.

[Parabola]

This reminds me of when this board censored the word 'Hitler'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I put a quote from one of Gary Glitter's songs in my signature and attributed it to him would it get removed? People seem to forget that Varg Vikernes is a musician.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What about Ozzy Osbourne? He was cruel to animals, he shot 17 of his cats, so could I not have a lyric attributed to him in my signature? How about Roman Polanski, would you be removing quotes of his too?

[Mercifull]

How about quotes by Ghandi, he was racist to black people?

 

 

 

What about Nelson Mandela, jailed for sabotage.

 

 

 

And then how about the greek philospher Socrates, so called "corrupter of the young"?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Either its all quotes allowed of all banned. Its absurd to delete this partcular quote when there are far worse things on this forum not only allowed but encouraged.

[pokemama]

*** DISCLAIMER: the opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent Tip.It ***

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I always thought your quote "I would rather die fighting for what I believe in, than live for anything else" is quite stirring and uplifting. I was a bit worried that someone was arbitrarily censoring something.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So after reading this topic, I went and looked up Vikernes since I'd never heard of him. Apparently fighting for what he believes in involves setting fire to houses of worship that he does not endorse. :(

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Um, that's considered a hate crime in the USA, over and above the crime of arson.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Wikipedia article tries to be fair to him, stating that he believes people should be proud of their heritage and remember their roots, including the traditional pantheist religious beliefs in his country. That's admirable, and I'm one of many who view the historical crushing of other religions as shameful. However, what Vikernes encourages doing about it isn't. (The article states that while he was never convicted of the arson, he made statements approving it.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think if you quoted the fellow about music, or girls, or something else, that it wouldn't be considered any more offensive than any other sig. But given the hate crime that he endorses, "fighting" for what he believes in gives an ugly flavor to what otherwise sounds like an admirable quote.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Other people were mentioned by posters, so let's take a look at them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gary Glitter, musician and convicted pedophile: I think saying "Hey!" (from his song) would be fine, but a remark about minor children wouldn't be.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Adolf H: Very few quotes would be viewed as appropriate, if any.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm reminded of a quote from WW2 tyrant Josef Stalin: "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything." See, that quote doesn't make him appear to be any type of hero - it shows the type of person he was.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*** DISCLAIMER: the opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent Tip.It ***

[Cruiser]

The fact it was said by someone that committed hate crimes doesn't change the meaning of the words quoted. People can read into it and say "Oh but it means you should murder people that don't agree with you", turning it into complete nonsense just like you can read into the suggestive anime signatures. If the quote was said by some uplifting philosopher it would have never been touched (and I bet you can find just that on these boards). The quote has a lot more to do with life than just what the guy that said it did with his time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All this makes me want to add it to my sig after this thread dies off, just to see how long it takes someone to have a genuine reason to report it. I'd bet money it would make it well past a week if I waited long enough.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are more important things for people to worry about than a quote that means absolutely nothing bad when the authors name isn't attached to it. People need to get a life and stop worrying about names in history that no longer effects them.

[hohto]

That's exactly my point. If you do not allow quotes from people who have done something wrong, it should be in rules. If you start removing sigs in the name of that thing, you should say it clearly in the rules. As at least one signature (probably more) has been removed, the rules should be changed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, there should be a valid formation of people who are not accepted to be quoted. Now we're not accepted to quote a book written by a man who has murdered one person, charged for church arsons and made albums which have affected to the world of metal music more than any other band since Metallica. Can we even recommend his albums for people who want to hear good black metal?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you ask me, wise words are wise words, no matter who has said them. And don't forget that also the winners of WW2 have done crimes against humanity. Yet, they can be quoted. For me, that quote made by Vikernes is part of my personal philosophy. I'm even at the moment fighting for what I feel right. I feel that I've followed the current rules, but as they seem to have changed, there should be an update. Note that I agree to follow your rules, even tho I feel it's wrongly set rule.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

edit: Cruiser, it took me over 1 year and 1600+ posts to get it deleted :P

[Mercifull]

It seems to me that a moderator or administrator was curiously wondering who said the quote and Google it. Upon finding out who he was it was a knee jerk reaction to delete it from your signature.

[Parabola]

Does this mean that if someone has a quote in their signature, I can try and dig up dirt on the person who said it and then get it removed? Carl Sagan was a drug user so Mercifull's signature should be removed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So after reading this topic, I went and looked up Vikernes since I'd never heard of him. Apparently fighting for what he believes in involves setting fire to houses of worship that he does not endorse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was unaware that Hohto's signature read "I would rather die fighting for what I believe in (which is burning down churches), than live for anything else". Methinks that Varg Vikernes supported more than just burning down churches - such as Odalism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Um, that's considered a hate crime in the USA, over and above the crime of arson.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Um, hate crime = thought crime.

[hohto]

I had clearly stated who said it and had totally nothing to hide. Of course I had nothing to hide as I did nothing against the rules, at least not those rules which currently are written in the rule post.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The quote also has nothing to do with church arsons or hate crimes. If you ask me, it's actually closer to being a total opposite to hate crime. Here's a full chapter quoted from burzum.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I grew up reading the traditional Scandinavian fairy tales, where the Pagan gods are presented as "evil" creatures, as "trolls" and "goblins", and we all know how the inquisition turned Freyr (Cernunnos/Dionysus/Bacchus et cetera) into "Satan". Tolkien was no better. He had turned ÃÆÃââââ¬ÃâÃÆÃâÃâðinn into Sauron and my Pagan forefathers into the fighting Uruk-Hai. To me the "dark forces" attacking Gondor were like the Vikings attacking Charlemagne's Christian France, the "dark forces" attacking Rohan were like the Vikings attacking the Christian England. And I may add; the Vikings eventually lost their war as well, just like Sauron and the orcs did - and I didn't mind supporting the loosing part. I have always believed in doing what is right, regardless of the consequences, and if I was fighting for a lost cause it didn't matter. I would rather die fighting for what I believe in, than live for anything else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.burzum.com/burzum/library/text/burzum/i/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, do you have new rules or have you done a mistake? Who are the ones who are so bad guys that they shouldn't be quoted? Can we still refer to them in normal text, such as recommending Burzum's albums?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

edit: And if quoting a person who has been accused of burning down churches gets related to hate crime, why do you still accept discussion where muslims and homosexuals get bashed?

[Adam007]

Quotes are great because they can be taken out of context and taken for only the quote itself. Whatever the person did outside of the quote doesn't matter because it's only about the quote, not the person's name. It's about the words and the meaning behind them, not how the quoted personally acted out what he said. As long as the words are unoffensive I can't understand what the problem is, because if certain quotes aren't allowed because of an impurity of the person I don't think any quotes could be allowed, because nobody really has a perfect clean record.