Fate: Fact or False?

[warri0r45]

My belief is irrelevant to the truth.

 

My wishs are irrelevant to my actions.

 

 

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

So it dosen't matter if your belief is true or not and you never act on your wishes? If my interpretation is wrong tell me, but I just find that a bit odd.

[Satenza]

My belief is irrelevant to the truth.

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

Damn right it is.

[fat_hobbit22]

My belief is irrelevant to the truth.

 

~Defender~

 

 

 

Damn right it is.

 

 

 

unless you dont no what the truth is, then your belief is as crediable as the truth we do not know. but that still makes it irrelevant to the truth :-k

[assassin_696]

 

Which is exactly what I've been saying :-w . Wasn't thinking of the french dude from the Matrix though (wait, who?).

 

 

 

If someone knew all the occurances in existence(sp?) in history and in the present, technically speaking they could predict everything that's going to happen in the future, without even seeing the future, and yet without infringeing on people's free will. In that way our future, or our "fate", is already known, but we still make the choices and have the free will to "make our own fate/destiny".

 

 

 

Quantum mechanics kind of blows that view out of the water though.

[Rebdragon]

 

Which is exactly what I've been saying :-w . Wasn't thinking of the french dude from the Matrix though (wait, who?).

 

 

 

If someone knew all the occurances in existence(sp?) in history and in the present, technically speaking they could predict everything that's going to happen in the future, without even seeing the future, and yet without infringeing on people's free will. In that way our future, or our "fate", is already known, but we still make the choices and have the free will to "make our own fate/destiny".

 

 

 

Quantum mechanics kind of blows that view out of the water though.

 

Eh, I guess you can't predict small things like where an electron is going to be... but I was thinking on larger scales. Quantum mechanics makes it so we can't know for sure where small things like electrons are going to be, but we could predict where something large is going to be with pretty much 100% certainty if we were omniscient in matters of past and present.

[assassin_696]

 

Which is exactly what I've been saying :-w . Wasn't thinking of the french dude from the Matrix though (wait, who?).

 

 

 

If someone knew all the occurances in existence(sp?) in history and in the present, technically speaking they could predict everything that's going to happen in the future, without even seeing the future, and yet without infringeing on people's free will. In that way our future, or our "fate", is already known, but we still make the choices and have the free will to "make our own fate/destiny".

 

 

 

Quantum mechanics kind of blows that view out of the water though.

 

Eh, I guess you can't predict small things like where an electron is going to be... but I was thinking on larger scales. Quantum mechanics makes it so we can't know for sure where small things like electrons are going to be, but we could predict where something large is going to be with pretty much 100% certainty if we were omniscient in matters of past and present.

 

 

 

Yeah I suppose so, although again, chaos theory goes and destroys that view for some dynamic systems (which is why long term weather forecasting is impossible).

[Death_By_Pod]

 

Quantum mechanics kind of blows that view out of the water though.

 

 

 

Not necessarily, the processes behind QM are deterministic. However I think he was theoretically speaking and not seriously proposing anything.

 

 

 

 

Yeah I suppose so, although again, chaos theory goes and destroys that view for some dynamic systems (which is why long term weather forecasting is impossible).

 

 

 

Non-linear systems can be modelled, you just need to be very careful with how you measure any starting variables. The mechanisms for things like convection are deterministic. Chaos is just really another way of saying extreme sensitivity to initial conditions. The sensitivity is probably why people believe that free will exists.

[homegirl911911999]

Now, i have recently been watching final destination films. (great films they were). And had the idea of death being a force in fd 3. but i don't believe that. i agree with ian about it being a biological ending to life.

 

 

 

But I much prefer the destiny theory. the idea, that a major force is guiding our every movements. shaping our future. examining the past. that we were born to do what the force wanted us to do. whether it was to die an early grave, or cure the common cold.

 

 

 

But this being is far too powerful to comprehend. as it's power grows far beyond our imagination. there's no defying him. he knows what you're going to do, BEFORE you do it.

 

 

 

So according to the destiny idea, we're all just puppets under it's eyes. forcing our every movement. unable to seek our own path.

 

 

 

But there are those who disagree; as with all ideas. who believe we have free will to do what we like, and some god is whom created us. but I ask you this: why then were WE born? some other child, with different hopes and dreams, could have showed up instead of us. tehre must be a reason why we were chosen. and that is simple: destiny.

 

my oppion is "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." God created everything he loves all so much he knows whats happening today before we do he knows tomorrow before us he knows us better than we do. destiny yes we have a so called "destiny" but its not a major force God is the one. i think destiny and fate are something someone made up to accomadate God we are all empty and searching for God and until we find him we will fill such a place in us with the things of this world food, clothes, ect. we all do it but lets remember that God sent his only son to die for us and wash our sins away. so again we have destinies but when i die i will either go to heaven or hell. and in life my destiny might be to be mom, celebrity, or whatever God wants us to be.

[homegirl911911999]

Now, i have recently been watching final destination films. (great films they were). And had the idea of death being a force in fd 3. but i don't believe that. i agree with ian about it being a biological ending to life.

 

 

 

But I much prefer the destiny theory. the idea, that a major force is guiding our every movements. shaping our future. examining the past. that we were born to do what the force wanted us to do. whether it was to die an early grave, or cure the common cold.

 

 

 

But this being is far too powerful to comprehend. as it's power grows far beyond our imagination. there's no defying him. he knows what you're going to do, BEFORE you do it.

 

 

 

So according to the destiny idea, we're all just puppets under it's eyes. forcing our every movement. unable to seek our own path.

 

 

 

But there are those who disagree; as with all ideas. who believe we have free will to do what we like, and some god is whom created us. but I ask you this: why then were WE born? some other child, with different hopes and dreams, could have showed up instead of us. tehre must be a reason why we were chosen. and that is simple: destiny.

 

my oppion is "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." God created everything he loves all so much he knows whats happening today before we do he knows tomorrow before us he knows us better than we do. destiny yes we have a so called "destiny" but its not a major force God is the one. i think destiny and fate are something someone made up to accomadate God we are all empty and searching for God and until we find him we will fill such a place in us with the things of this world food, clothes, ect. we all do it but lets remember that God sent his only son to die for us and wash our sins away. so again we have destinies but when i die i will either go to heaven or hell. and in life my destiny might be to be mom, celebrity, or whatever God wants us to be. (messed up on other post forgot to put where the quote ended and what i said began)

 

[darkforaster]

Now, i have recently been watching final destination films. (great films they were). And had the idea of death being a force in fd 3. but i don't believe that. i agree with ian about it being a biological ending to life.

 

 

 

But I much prefer the destiny theory. the idea, that a major force is guiding our every movements. shaping our future. examining the past. that we were born to do what the force wanted us to do. whether it was to die an early grave, or cure the common cold.

 

 

 

But this being is far too powerful to comprehend. as it's power grows far beyond our imagination. there's no defying him. he knows what you're going to do, BEFORE you do it.

 

 

 

So according to the destiny idea, we're all just puppets under it's eyes. forcing our every movement. unable to seek our own path.

 

 

 

But there are those who disagree; as with all ideas. who believe we have free will to do what we like, and some god is whom created us. but I ask you this: why then were WE born? some other child, with different hopes and dreams, could have showed up instead of us. there must be a reason why we were chosen. and that is simple: destiny.

 

 

 

my opinion is "in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." God created everything he loves all so much he knows whats happening today before we do he knows tomorrow before us he knows us better than we do. destiny yes we have a so called "destiny" but its not a major force God is the one. i think destiny and fate are something someone made up to accomadate God we are all empty and searching for God and until we find him we will fill such a place in us with the things of this world food, clothes, ect. we all do it but lets remember that God sent his only son to die for us and wash our sins away. so again we have destinies but when i die i will either go to heaven or hell. and in life my destiny might be to be mom, celebrity, or whatever God wants us to be.

 

 

 

Thanks for your opinions. But remember, I don't want this turning into a flame war. So be careful when talking about god. I don't want my thread locked becuase others disagree with your religion.

 

 

 

Oh, and BUMP too.

[darkforaster]

bump?

 

 

 

What's happened here then? Loss of things to say?

[Obsessive_Passion]

Hmm, who'd have thought all those years of English study actually helps? Just completed a transformation module on Hamlet and Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead whereby we were required to focus on assumptions/themes/concepts, one of which examined fate, destiny, fortune. So, just some general thoughts:

 

 

 

After being drummed on existentialist thought and absurdism, I honestly don't think it matters. Fate? What is fate? The only two certainties in life are: birth and death. Rather than worry about fate or question the powerlessness of individuals, or try to prevent our death, let's prepare ourselves for what is, in fact, inevitable. Let's adopt the mindset that we will all, eventually, die. Of course, context always shapes values; and this not only applies to texts, but society in general.

 

 

 

Ok, my opinion:

 

No, I don't believe in fate, however, I do acknowledge that others do believe in fate, destiny, fortune, etc. It is a belief: not a fact, nor theory, nor opinion. Hence, it is not a truth. Apologies, lost that train of thought.

 

 

 

Free will? Ah, humanism. I like to think I have some degree of power and influence over my own life. And yet, simultaneously, we condemn ourselves with this free will, rendering us responsible for all actions we take. I think, to believe in fate is, well, not entirely to be ignorant of reality, but to shut it out, somewhat. It's easy to blame 'fate' or 'destiny' for everything wrong that happens. It requires someone with an increased capacity to cope to say: I could not have avoided it. I am responsible for my actions.

 

 

 

I don't know. These thoughts seem jumbled up. Might edit later.

[warri0r45]

 

Ok, my opinion:

 

No, I don't believe in fate, however, I do acknowledge that others do believe in fate, destiny, fortune, etc. It is a belief: not a fact, nor theory, nor opinion. Hence, it is not a truth. Apologies, lost that train of thought.

 

 

 

 

Spot on. Hence why the title is kind of wrong; It's not a matter of facts.

[darkforaster]

 

Ok, my opinion:

 

No, I don't believe in fate, however, I do acknowledge that others do believe in fate, destiny, fortune, etc. It is a belief: not a fact, nor theory, nor opinion. Hence, it is not a truth. Apologies, lost that train of thought.

 

 

 

 

Spot on. Hence why the title is kind of wrong; It's not a matter of facts.

 

 

 

I know that. I was asking you whether you believed it was real or not. If you believe it is real. You would think of it as true. Or a fact.

 

 

 

But remember, just because they only believe that it exists. Instead of knowing it exists. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Those who believe in destiny will not have any evidence on the subject. BUt that does not mean destiny is not real.

[warri0r45]

 

Ok, my opinion:

 

No, I don't believe in fate, however, I do acknowledge that others do believe in fate, destiny, fortune, etc. It is a belief: not a fact, nor theory, nor opinion. Hence, it is not a truth. Apologies, lost that train of thought.

 

 

 

 

Spot on. Hence why the title is kind of wrong; It's not a matter of facts.

 

 

 

I know that. I was asking you whether you believed it was real or not. If you believe it is real. You would think of it as true. Or a fact.

 

 

 

But remember, just because they only believe that it exists. Instead of knowing it exists. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Those who believe in destiny will not have any evidence on the subject. BUt that does not mean destiny is not real.

 

 

 

Yes, if you believe it's real, you do think it's true. But if you believe it and you think it's a fact... It's just not a matter of facts is all I'm saying.

[IGoddessI]

Post modernism people! "This is true because this professional says that" "But I don't agree with him anyway because I'm allowed to think differently" "Why do you agree with what that person has said, when this person has said this" "But the world is, how I see it fit to be, everything is inline to what I believe to be real".

 

 

 

Amusing :P It actually makes me think that the Liberalism ideology is slowly dying in Australia.

[Althalus]

I think fate is partially predetermined and in other ways we control it. You could say that during our lifetime we are faced with decisions which are destined to happen but how we handle those decisions determines how our life unfolds. As for the Final Destination movies...I really wouldn't take them seriously. I mean, the chances of someone dying the way those people did are so slim.

[Obsessive_Passion]

I know that. I was asking you whether you believed it was real or not. If you believe it is real. You would think of it as true. Or a fact.

 

 

 

But remember, just because they only believe that it exists. Instead of knowing it exists. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Those who believe in destiny will not have any evidence on the subject. BUt that does not mean destiny is not real.

 

 

 

Ok, taking that into account and restraining myself from using the word 'believe' to prevent further potential wordplay:

 

I don't think 'fate' is real. It is not a truth, it is not a fact. I don't think it exists. Justification? Probably mentioned in my above post.

 

 

 

Aside: if we 'believe' in something, it doesn't necessarily imply that we find 'truth' in it, or that we consider it factual. We may choose to believe one ideology or philosophy over another simply because it seems the most logical and probable, but not necessarily the most truthful (and what about the 'process of elimination'? Idea A seems false, by process of elimination I'll choose to believe Idea B. But is it necessarily true? I shouldn't think so.)

 

 

 

So essentially, even if people don't 'believe' in fate or perceive it to be real, there's still the chance that 'fate' exists? If that's the case, then what's the point of this discussion? If, regardless of what we think, fate is an underlying everpresent force, then why are we even contributing our opinions to this?

[highlanders]

Some ppl think destiny doesn't exist, theyre the master of their life.

 

Some ppl believe it's all written in advance by some godly power.

 

 

 

Well me, I think our actions forge our destiny. Thus, we still follow a destiny, but a destiny made by ourselves. Haha, right in the middle, and it makes a lot more sense than both theories :

 

 

 

you said you forged your own destiny by your actions. but this is the same as controlling what occurs in thier life. You believe that you are the master of your destiny. therefore is the master of life.

 

 

 

so your the same as the "destiny doesn't exist, they're the master of thier life" people.

 

I was expecting a comment like that. People who think they are the masters of their life do not believe in destiny, I do. Having a fate is having a purpose, that your life is connected to all the others lives that exist, in order to attain an equilibrium. I think everything that we do in our lives are to attain that particular balance, and that in the end we will have a purpose, but we choose what purpose we will have. Instead of being forged, I think of fate as something that will change, as people, all the people that existst, make decisions, and whatever happen, some godly power will make it remain balanced, it will always stay balanced but we can choose what part we play in it.

 

 

 

Anyway, it doesn't matter whos right or wrong, when I die I'll just see, Im keeping my mind open, I have no forged beliefs, just theories.

[assassin_696]

I read an interesting essay today by Stephen Hawking, called 'Is Everything Determined?'

 

 

 

I won't go into the details unless anyone wants me to, but the conclusion is that, yes everything is determined, but it might as well not be because we can never know what is determined. A very interesting read.

[LeonardMart]

the destiny idea is interesting but theres no real proof to it. i myself dont believe in it but i use it in jokes and stuff like that

 

 

 

>WE< are the ones who act and >OUR< actions cause a reaction caused by >US< and not some man out there who decides "o yes and now your mom will come and..."

[insane]

 

Ok, my opinion:

 

No, I don't believe in fate, however, I do acknowledge that others do believe in fate, destiny, fortune, etc. It is a belief: not a fact, nor theory, nor opinion. Hence, it is not a truth. Apologies, lost that train of thought.

 

 

 

 

Spot on. Hence why the title is kind of wrong; It's not a matter of facts.

 

 

 

It is a matter of facts though. Fate either exists or it doesn't. That's a fact. We may believe one way or another, but what we believe is irrelevant to the truth. Anyways, on another train of thought....

 

 

 

Is it not consistent for you, a materialist, to completely deny free will? If you are a materialist, would you not believe that our thoughts and actions are completely predetermined by other material entities?

 

 

 

I know the Heisenburg uncertainty principle would make our actions impossible to predict, but it doesn't change the fact that we have no control over them?

 

 

 

If you're a materialist, then fate is a fact. If you think materialism is fact, then you must think that fate is fact.

[warri0r45]

 

Ok, my opinion:

 

No, I don't believe in fate, however, I do acknowledge that others do believe in fate, destiny, fortune, etc. It is a belief: not a fact, nor theory, nor opinion. Hence, it is not a truth. Apologies, lost that train of thought.

 

 

 

 

Spot on. Hence why the title is kind of wrong; It's not a matter of facts.

 

 

 

It is a matter of facts though. Fate either exists or it doesn't. That's a fact. We may believe one way or another, but what we believe is irrelevant to the truth. Anyways, on another train of thought....

 

 

 

Is it not consistent for you, a materialist, to completely deny free will? If you are a materialist, would you not believe that our thoughts and actions are completely predetermined by other material entities?

 

 

 

I know the Heisenburg uncertainty principle would make our actions impossible to predict, but it doesn't change the fact that we have no control over them?

 

 

 

If you're a materialist, then fate is a fact. If you think materialism is fact, then you must think that fate is fact.

 

 

 

Of course, it either exists or it dosen't, my comment was just that I don't think that it's the kind of thing that you would label as a fact or not.

 

 

 

@ bold: The key word there being completely. Partly, yes, but completely? If I have a piece of metal and am a blacksmith is it really predetermined that I'll make a horseshoe? I could make a sword if I want. I see your reasoning and mostly agree. The fate I was referring to was the more mythical idea that some deity determines our life in some sort of plan. But hey, full points for reasoning. There are orders of predetermination due to our environment although I would dispute there being 'no contol.' It could be an illusionary control, but by definition and in the context of what we know, yes, I do have a degree of control.

[archimage_a]

Well depends how you are going to put it...

 

 

 

Fate is something that is far to complex to actually predict. But it is possible. How you ask?

 

 

 

If every possible reality happens out there then logically their in one were anything happens. For example your computer could grow legs suddenly. It seems unlikely but if there is an infinate number of dimentions and an infinate number of reasons why. Then you come to the equation:

 

 

 

 

Infinate

 

_______ = 1

 

 

 

Infinate

 

 

 

1 is the probablity it is certain. But then because their are infinate dimentions you have to divide it by infinate so.

 

 

 

1

 

______ = 1 infinate

 

 

 

Infinate

 

 

 

So the chances of this dimention being that dimention are 1 to infinate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How does any of this help though?

 

Ok so their is clearly something that makes the dimentions different from each other. So the most probable thing is that there is some sort of Signature that everything in this dimention has. So if you could find that signature and translate it, then you would have the exact read out of the Universe, and everything that has, is and will happen in it.

 

 

 

So yes fate does exist. No there is no way to change it, because if you were to try then the Signature would change at the same instant...Also if you were to change your 'Destiny' then you would be in a different dimention. So you would be altered, to fit your new fate. Theres no escaping it...But it definately isn't a force. Its just random chance.

[darkforaster]

Any more comments people?