Why do we Fight?

[pault]

Why is there a war in Iraq?

 

 

 

Give me your opinion if you like. I believe there is a war in Iraq because of dollar hegemony. Here is a relatively complete outline of the economic situation.

 

 

 

Supporting Links:

 

http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html#p2

 

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&editi ... earch+News

 

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congr ... 021506.htm

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... i-news-hed

 

http://creepysleepy.com/crane/?p=279

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What do you think?

[Kiriyama]

I thought the War in Iraq was over Oil?

 

 

 

Anyway we fight because Humans are the most evil creature on the planet.

[Sumpta]

Oh dear. Before any of the rest can butt in to flame, I'd like to put a disclaimer on this discussion.

 

 

 

Nothing in politics is ever simple. There's a whole political constellation in which this kind of event happens and there are a lot of conditions and reasons for this war. You'd need to be a good student of politics and history to begin to grasp complex situations as these.

 

 

 

Important elements are:

 

- Bush's policy of external politics to evade internal issues in his country

 

- The aftermath of 9/11

 

- The long economical war with the Middle East

 

- The long political history of the West with the Middle-East, with Israel/Palestina as an important catalysator

 

- The end of the Cold War as well as the external politics of Russia in the Middle East

 

 

 

And I'm sure lots of other factors can be added.

[pault]

Sworddude, I would agree with the statement that the war is over oil. Another way of saying it would be that the war is to ensure that most oil is sold for US dollars instead of Euros. Hence the timing of the war relative to the Euro's emergence/Saddam selling his oil for Euros. This connects with the friction that is going on between the US and Iran, another oil producing state which is heading toward selling their oil for Euros instead of the standard US dollars.

 

 

 

We fight because we are the most good creatures on this planet, as well as being the most evil. Without hate, is there love?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sumpta, your bullet points intrigue and confuse me. What internal issues is George Bush managing to evade by invading Iraq and what makes you think that an individual is behind the policies of the US? Obviously the war in Iraq keeps the fiat currency of the US propped up if that is what you mean, but if so you are merely agreeing with my position. Your vagaries leave me no other choice to assume you are, however.

 

 

 

To the second point, how is 9/11 connected with Iraq? And other than causing a change in US public opinion how is a post 9/11 world significantly different? Iraq selling their oil for euros instead of dollars had alot more to do with why the war with Iraq began than 9/11. Also to address the third point, define the "Long economical war" with the middle east. Perhaps you are speaking of the post-Bretton Woods agreement with OPEC to price oil in US dollars, changing the dollar from the gold standard to black gold?

 

 

 

Finally, you can't just say "The long political history of the..." etc.. You are merely telling me what you should be talking about and points you should be raising, without making the effort. If you don't have anything to say, say nothing. It's sad, especially when you have almost talked about important things, such as Russias war in Afghanistan and Israels role in Middle Eastern politics. But if you are merely bringing up talking points without stating an opinion or actually expressing any independent thought whatsover, I'm not going to debate myself for your benifit.

[Kiriyama]

Without hate, is there love?

 

 

 

Yeah I understand that is a rhetorical question but I think I have an answer.

 

 

 

Without hate, we would basically all be following part of the bible which says Love Thy Neighbour. So basically we'd all in a sense love each other, and since it would be the only emotion to another human we'd feel, love would be non-exsistant.

 

 

 

Its rather like Can we hae order without chaos?.

[pault]

If I believed in the bible, sworddude, I would probably say something complicated and meaningless about free will right now, but I don't. I would very much like for this thread to stay on topic, I didn't mean to start a debate with the topic title, just make it catchy.

[Abyssalwhip]

Because we have a [developmentally delayed]ed president?

[Mr_Cheese]

i find wars pointless, wats the point of fighting? the end goal will always be nothing compared to wat was lost in the process.

[Kiriyama]

Because we have a [developmentally delayed] president?

 

 

 

Yet another quality post by Abyssalwhip.

 

 

 

Bush is human, humans are prone to make bad choices in life, this man has shown he is just another human.

[Sumpta]

Pault, if you think my post was empty and sad, you're going to have a tough time with the rest of this thread.

 

 

 

I didn't feel like expanding on the bullet points, because

 

a) it's been done before and

 

B) it's done a lot better than I could, since I'm not as knowledgeable on the subject as I could wish to be and

 

c) I'm at work and shouldn't be browsing forums - lol

 

 

 

I merely handed out a start of conditions that should be taken into account and that I know will not be taken into account by most who will visit this thread. Yes, it's lazy and pessimistic, but frankly, if you are really looking for an in-depth intellectual discussion, why in the world are you doing it here?

 

 

 

One point I will expand on, though. Your guesses about what I meant were all more or less correct, except the one about Bush. He doesn't have an individual policy, that is true. Although American presidents can push their personal beliefs a lot more than happens in the political systems of other countries. Anyway, when I talk about "Bush's policy", I really mean the president and his entourage/administration.

 

 

 

A big reason for Bush's international policy, in my humble opinion, is that he needed to steer his people away from internal difficulties in the USA. Bush is not known for a strong social policy at all, while this is one of the things that, again in my view, the country does need. Poverty, crime and the educational system are or should be hot topics in the US, for which Bush can offer no solutions, tied as he is with huge industries such as the warfare industry. So yes, I do think that this is an important aspect. One of the many.

 

 

 

In this respect, 9/11 is extremely important, because it made the average American look abroad as well. 9/11 created the political climate that was needed to be able to make the external international policy the most important one. That's why there are so many conspiracy theories (which I don't buy, btw)... it was exactly what Bush needed to do what he went on to do after 9/11.

[Abyssalwhip]

Because we have a [developmentally delayed] president?

 

 

 

Yet another quality post by Abyssalwhip.

 

 

 

Bush is human, humans are prone to make bad choices in life, this man has shown he is just another human.

Just an incredibly stupid human.

[pault]

Because we have a [developmentally delayed] president?

 

 

 

 

 

You can't blame huge geopolitical events on individuals. To make such reductions is simply childish. There are huge intangible forces in this world, economic shifts and political maneuvers. George Bush may or may not be an idiot, the reasons behind the war in Iraq have little to do with his intelligence. He is not a dictator who makes decisions by himself nor is he the arbiter of what the executive branch of the US government actually does.

[Matok]

 

Important elements are:

 

- Bush's policy of external politics to evade internal issues in his country

 

- The aftermath of 9/11

 

- The long economical war with the Middle East

 

- The long political history of the West with the Middle-East, with Israel/Palestina as an important catalysator

 

- The end of the Cold War as well as the external politics of Russia in the Middle East

 

 

 

And I'm sure lots of other factors can be added.

 

Russia is no longer a major player in the middle-east (well..not as they use to) though it seems that Putin tries to bring back the glories Soviet days.

 

Sad to admit it but yea,we (Israel) also play a role in this Iraq war..

[pault]

Sumpta13, I know this isn't the best place to have this debate, but I just want to throw some opinions out there for people who are my age who might not otherwise be exposed to them.

 

 

 

 

 

You have an interesting point of view on the reasons behind what Bush does, though I wouldn't agree that he actually makes many important decisions, but I can suspend my opinion that he is just a figurehead for a minute. I agree that there are many internal social issues in the US that are unsolvable under the current government. Some of these are connected to the failed US economic policy in the Middle East directly, some indirectly. For example poverty in the US is is somewhat connected to the increasing role of the service industry and its replacement of the manufacturing and agricultural industries as the main source of income for Americans. The fiat currency of the US made possible by OPEC allows the system of debt that sponsors the warfare/welfare state and allows outsourcing and hence less jobs in manufacturing and agriculture.

 

 

 

What policy Americans think is the most important one, incidentally, doesn't matter much. There is alot of "Voter fraud investigation" going on by Republicans. That means voter "Caging". Basically, disenfranchising voters.

 

http://www.gregpalast.com/greg-palast-i ... #more-1740

 

 

 

That is what is really going on with the US attorney scandal, but nobody wants to talk about it. American public opinion doesn't matter so much, as long as people aren't in the streets rioting. You are wrong if you think Americans are being convinced to agree with the administrations policy, 9/11 simply made people apathetic. People get bored of waving the flag, rather quickly, but they still get a little rush when they see it around everywhere. They may forget that 9/11 and Iraq are not connected and it is purely economic policy why we are there, but on some deeper level they still feel it. It is quite pathetic really, my people, everyone, they are just flag-suckers. Iraq was invaded because Saddam tried to get Euros for his oil instead of dollars. Iran is trying, right now, and they might be next.

[anonymouse_]

Because we have a [developmentally delayed] president?

 

 

 

Yet another quality post by Abyssalwhip.

 

 

 

Bush is human, humans are prone to make bad choices in life, this man has shown he is just another human.

Just an incredibly stupid human.

Well, it only reflects the intelligence of those who elected him :roll:

[Guest]

Why do people say the war is over oil when its cost Billions of dollars for this war (and still going) and yet their not even going to make that back with the oil they get? :?

 

 

 

I personally think Bush just wants to finish off what his Dad started. As well as hundreds of other contributing factors we may/may not know of.

[pault]

Why do people say the war is over oil when its cost Billions of dollars for this war (and still going) and yet their not even going to make that back with the oil they get? :?

 

 

 

I personally think Bush just wants to finish off what his Dad started. As well as hundreds of other contributing factors we may/may not know of.

 

 

 

The congress voted to "Authorize force" in Iraq. Are you telling me they were all completely fooled by the weapons of mass destruction line or the spurious connections to 9/11? Not likely. It's not all about Bush, man. He isn't a dictator who can just make stuff up and everybody will go along with it.

[highlanders]

Control of the oil price.

 

Your government lied to you all along, and you know why they're there right? Why would you trust a government that lies to you?

 

 

 

Why do people say the war is over oil when its cost Billions of dollars for this war (and still going) and yet their not even going to make that back with the oil they get? :?

 

 

 

I personally think Bush just wants to finish off what his Dad started. As well as hundreds of other contributing factors we may/may not know of.

 

Because Bush's friends are making a ton of money in weapon-making companies.

 

 

 

They are making themselves richer, while the country is becoming poorer, looks like they don't care about the citizens.

[splatmster24]

read the first page, then skip to about the last3, thats all iraqie war politics stuff.

 

 

 

http://forum.tip.it/viewtopic.php?t=609 ... 1998b73e0a

[TotalTalker]

I think that war is a stupid idea. Its just people being forced to fight (not as such now), because of some guys opinion.

[Lenin64]

I personally think Bush just wants to finish off what his Dad started.

 

 

 

Took the words right out of my mouth. Bush Sr. tried to get Saddam Huissein out of power, it didnt work, so now our Bush did it and has no exit plan.

[llcoolguy972]

Because we have a [developmentally delayed] president?

 

 

 

Yet another quality post by Abyssalwhip.

 

 

 

Bush is human, humans are prone to make bad choices in life, this man has shown he is just another human.

Just an incredibly stupid human.

Well, it only reflects the intelligence of those who elected him :roll:

 

 

 

Al Gore had the popular vote... Bush won the electoral vote, which are the only ones that actually matter.

[aaron1120]

Because we have a [developmentally delayed] president?

 

 

 

Yet another quality post by Abyssalwhip.

 

 

 

Bush is human, humans are prone to make bad choices in life, this man has shown he is just another human.

Just an incredibly stupid human.

Well, it only reflects the intelligence of those who elected him :roll:

 

If I would of been old enough in the last election, I would have voted for him. He had a good plan, but it would be impossible to have a perfect plan with Afghanistan, Iraq, and threats from Iran. I believe things were going extremely well until after Hussein was captured. So many things began happening; nuclear threats from Iran, threats from new extremist groups, etc. There could be no perfect plan at that point.

 

 

 

Sure, I hate it when I see another soldier has died in Iraq, but we really are doing a good thing there. What's started has to be finished up (at least finished to the point when Iraq is stable enough to create a government that works).

[tomdavies90]

Some'ink to do I guess, we got bored, thought we'd start a war, have a bit o' fun

[underu2000]

The war began for several reasons that all of you already stated, which include dethroning S.Hussein, need of oil, 9/11, and other political reasons.

 

On the other hand, I'm sure the president expected to withdraw quickly after taking control of Iraq. The complications are the reason we still stay there. The fact that we broke up the previous government means we HAVE to stay there, or it would seem that we broke up the country, served our interests, and left. To save face, America has to stay there. Of course, it's also somewhat of a bad thing, that America won't let go of its pride...

 

The fact that much of the American people, and much of the world, opposes staying there doesn't help. And frustrating thing is, few other countries want to help get it over with (stabilizing Iraq that is) because they know its not an easy job. The overall result is that the right thing for America to do is to clear up the problems there before leaving.