Holocaust Denial, the BNP and freedom of speech

[Bubsa]

Why should they be given the right to publicy speak when they abuse the freedom of it for others, themselves?

 

 

 

give an example of either of those men not giving someone a chance for a fair open debate?

 

 

 

Uhh, Lol? Way to take my statement completely out of context.

 

It's not a debate, it's about the right to speak for who you are. These people use the right to speak for who you are, to incite violence to prevent other people, mainly Muslims, the right to speak, be, live and breathe for who they are, both physically and mentally.

 

 

 

That unfair enough, for you?

[mrpez]

I agree, the Holocaust never happened. The sky isn't blue either.

[Leylen]

Why should they be given the right to publicy speak when they abuse the freedom of it for others, themselves?

 

 

 

give an example of either of those men not giving someone a chance for a fair open debate?

 

 

 

Uhh, Lol? Way to take my statement completely out of context.

 

It's not a debate, it's about the right to speak for who you are. These people use the right to speak for who you are, to incite violence to prevent other people, mainly Muslims, the right to speak, be, live and breathe for who they are, both physically and mentally.

 

 

 

That unfair enough, for you?

 

 

 

You are denying both these men the right to be who they are physically and mentally. Nick Griffin has also debated with muslims on televised debates before, and usually been shouted down, and Irving has never displayed an opinion on them that I am aware of... being a simple historian trying to present a point of view and having groups of violent protesters try to stop him. You might want to consider the irony of having a large group of people at a freech speech event protesting trying to correct an error in history (if it exists) because it is not popular.

 

 

 

Also muslims have no bearing on someones right to present their opinions and views. Which we all have, stick to the point.

[Leylen]

I also found this arcticle amusing

 

http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/headlines/display.var.1857427.0.0.php

 

 

 

Mr Bennett said: "The vote is a disaster for democracy."

 

 

 

which says it all really.

[BlueLancer]

People have a right to their opinion. No matter how completely racist or insensitive it is. Live with it, and let this crap die out.

 

 

 

They have a right to an opinion that all the jews in the world should die as long as they don't execute their plans. Those people are twisted, but nonetheless have a right to their opinions.

 

 

 

But if those people decide to voice their opinions publicly, even in European countries which are very liberal, voicing racist/genocidal/oppressing opinions in public can and will land you a jail sentence for hate crimes.

 

 

 

If that sick person talking on TV has even the opportunity of making five people execute the plans he's talking about, the TV channel has failed and is an accomplice in murder.

 

 

 

Would I have the right to terrorize your family on public television or a newspaper claiming "I'm taking every chance I got at killing your entire family one by one". That's not freedom of speech. Allowing that kind of a person to open his mouth in public is a threat to ordinary society.

 

 

 

I also found this arcticle amusing

 

http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/headlines/display.var.1857427.0.0.php

 

 

 

Mr Bennett said: "The vote is a disaster for democracy."

 

 

 

which says it all really.

 

 

 

ATTENTION PEOPLE!

 

 

 

As young people I am sure you have noticed a sharp rise in the number of foreigners in our country. This is bad news for us because it breaks up our communities. They often don't speak our language and it sounds awful. If immigration is not stopped within three decades we will be outnumbered 80 to 1 in our own country and will be an ETHNIC MINORITY here. Vote BNP as soon as you're old enough. They're the only party that put British people first.

 

 

 

How can some brits actually vote for this racist filth? :? They keep inventing numbers as a justification for xenophobia?

[rushrock]

^ Racism like that is a crime? I never actually knew if it was a crime, I always thought it was horrible but not a crime, but nevertheless they should still be able to voice their opinion. If we silence them (Really, who's job is that to censor people? It doesn't make sense to silence people who just have a different opinion then us.), haven't they won? You probably should be allowed to voice that opinion on killing my family, but would anyone listen to you? No, probably not. Their numbers are so low that the idea of their ideas spreading isn't plausible, IMO.

[BlueLancer]

^ Racism like that is a crime? I never actually knew if it was a crime, I always thought it was horrible but not a crime, but nevertheless they should still be able to voice their opinion. If we silence them (Really, who's job is that to censor people? It doesn't make sense to silence people who just have a different opinion then us.), haven't they won? You probably should be allowed to voice that opinion on killing my family, but would anyone listen to you? No, probably not. Their numbers are so low that the idea of their ideas spreading isn't plausible, IMO.

 

 

 

I, on the contrary, am shocked to find out you think that's "not" a crime.

 

 

 

UK hate crime laws

 

 

 

Does hate crime cover words or behaviour?

 

 

 

Hate crime can cover all types of abuse, including:

 

Verbal abuse and name calling

 

Taunts

 

Threat of violence

 

Damage to property

 

Serious and violent physical assaults.

 

 

 

The key factor is the motivation to cause hate behind the words or the actual conduct.

 

 

 

According to the Home Office, a typical perpetrator of hate crime in the UK is young, white and male. Most homophobic offenders are aged between 16 and 20, and most race offenders are under 30.

 

 

 

Seems like the typical BNP voter to me. Why should anyone be allowed to further convince these people it's ok to attack people and insult them based on their skin color, etc. which they were born with and have no control over?

[rushrock]

^ I was a bit shaky on racist law issues.

 

 

 

I don't support racism in any way, but I think they should be able to say their opinions. I say again, who's job is it to censor people? If we ban them from speaking their views, which isn't fair because you can't just nitpick at what is okay to say and what's to naughty to speak in public, you are no better then them yourselves. They've won, and they just get more popular. Instead, have strong defenses against them. Let the crazy bastards be killed off with their own views.

[BlueLancer]

 

I say again, who's job is it to censor people? If we ban them from speaking their views, which isn't fair because you can't just nitpick at what is okay to say and what's to naughty to speak in public, you are no better then them yourselves.

 

 

 

 

People whose views don't aim for the hurting (or even murdering) of other people, have the job to censor people who do wish to murder people, damage their property and discriminate against others.

 

 

 

In this case I can't see your logic at all. Are we also discriminating against people who we jail for robbing banks, assasinating politicians and evading taxes because they live in a "free" country?

 

 

 

Hate crime is a crime just like the ones mentioned above. It's just verbal. Would you let the school bully speak at the semester's ending ceremony and declare "I think we should kick open the nerd's lockers and steal their stuff, and stick their heads into toilets" due to 'freedom of speech' if it has the risk of even a few people actually executing it?

 

 

 

 

They've won, and they just get more popular. Instead, have strong defenses against them. Let the crazy bastards be killed off with their own views.

 

 

 

"Their own views" don't just die out. Look at neo-nazism, there are still tens of thousands of people in neo-nazi organisations due to freedom of speech (and sadly, at least in Russia, this number is GROWING instead of 'dying out'. These people often engage in physical hate crime and serve jail time).

 

 

 

Why should their views be given any airtime over politicians and people who aim for the welfare of all people and the protection of everyone from harm?

[rushrock]

I think that physical crimes such as stealing are different from racists expressing their views. Not all of society agrees on one idea that racism is wrong. I do believe it's wrong, but for those who have different opinions on the situation, they should be able to express their opinions. In fact, for such a different idea, I say it's mandatory that people are exposed to this. They are not physically hurting anyone, and even though it could spark the thoughts of some small minority of idiots, you have to take that risk. People can get hurt, but I say that if you put limits on to what's okay, you're only giving in to those idiot's ideas. You're allowing their ideas to spread. That's my opinion.

[BlueLancer]

even though it could spark the thoughts of some small minority of idiots, you have to take that risk. People can get hurt, but I say that if you put limits on to what's okay, you're only giving in to those idiot's ideas. You're allowing their ideas to spread. That's my opinion.

 

 

 

I'm assuming you're white.. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

 

In 2 weeks from now, a very large group of racist black/asian/middle-eastern people move in your neighbourhood. They chant anti-white phrases, they break stores owned by white people (which is exactly what's reversely happening to those people, by white perpetrators at the moment)

 

 

 

Would you really think these people have the right to gather in public and endorse making your life hell if it was your family and yourself who were being discriminated against?

 

 

 

I have first hand experience of what religious or nationalistic hatred does because people had the opportunity spread their sick, twisted ideas. A lot of my cousins, who were close to me and good friends of mine, died in the wars which raged in the Balkan in the 1990's or were butchered with knives or machetes.

 

 

 

If you want to know the reason for those deaths, how about this: People who succesfully spread hateful propaganda for years, insisting they are becoming a minority in their own lands, eventually convincing tens of thousands of people to murder and pillage people of a different nationality.

 

 

 

I just can't understand why the British can't see how important it is to stop mentally sick people from spreading their racist and xenophobic ideas. They are begging to repeat the events of Balkan, this time not against croats, serbs or bosnians, but against ethnic minorities in the UK.

[rushrock]

^ Yeah, I'm white. Cut out that breaking into stores part (that is illegal), and, well, yeah. They should be allowed to do that. We would probably either move or protest back. Our town's community would probably back us up, but if it was an entire community deal, we would just move.

 

 

 

People can get hurt because of these twisted people, but are their ideas going to be effective? Probably not. I'm not an expert at this stuff, but I truly believe that their ideas won't spread very far in this day and age, and I truly believe in free speech for everyone, even if it's sick and twisted like the BNP's views and the Holocaust denier. I like what Christopher Hitchens says about Holocaust deniers in that speech assassin posted, but you've probably already seen it.

[ember3579]

Rushrock, I'll put this into perspective. It's a little story that I've heard in one of my history classes, and I might not remember it to the "T", so bear with me.

 

 

 

 

 

Back right before WW2 started, a German family was living in Berlin. They were average, with brown hair and green eyes. About a week after they moved in, a Jewish family living nearby was taken away. They looked, and when the Jews asked for help, they said, "It's not my place to step in." The week after that, a black family was taken away, with the same response. After that, an English family, with the same response. The week after that, when the officials came to take them away, they looked around to plead for someone to help them, only to find no one was there.

 

 

 

The moral of this story: If you only stand by and watch an evil act occur, when it's done to you, don't expect anyone to be around to help you.

[rushrock]

^ I wouldn't even consider that a story, but I don't consider it to have much to do about free speech. Not what I was talking about.

[ember3579]

I'm just reminding you of the pitfalls of making the wrong choice of what to do when (not if) they try to escalate the involvement of the racial hatred that they spread. The only reason why the KKK or something similar isn't trying to take control is because they know the vast majority of Americans are gonna turn them into sausage patties if they try. Can you say the same about yourself? If not, you're as bad, if not worse, than they are.

[rushrock]

^ Hmm? Sausage patties? Explain...

 

 

 

You're assuming that they will take control. I say they won't, if you read my previous posts. I see you think that people will too easily be brainwashed by them? Is that it?

 

 

 

And yes, I would let them speak. Banning them from speaking would cause an entire mess of bad things to happen. If you want to see my in-depth opinion on this, read through the thread and read my posts.

[ember3579]

I'm running on the possibility that at least a few of these people might be brave or mad enough to try and take over the gov't by force. What I'm saying is that if they were to attempt such in America, flawed as it is, the vast majority would step in and kick some conehead [donkey]. And never underestimate the stupidity of the general public. Just look at the 2000 & 2004 elections. :wall: I'm not saying ban them from speaking, I'm saying watch out for when they're positioning that knife behind your back. Until then, I'm satisfied with tearing them to shreds in debates. :

[InfiniteLove]

They should be able to speak. Freedom of Speech for everyone is needed in a modern Democratic society. What we need to do is let their crazy beliefs die out. That will lead our society to peace.

 

 

 

Peace no longer exists.

 

Sadly...

[rushrock]

Peace no longer exists.

 

Sadly...

 

That's relatively depressing. Anything is possible. :wink:

[rushrock]

I'm running on the possibility that at least a few of these people might be brave or mad enough to try and take over the gov't by force. What I'm saying is that if they were to attempt such in America, flawed as it is, the vast majority would step in and kick some conehead [donkey]. And never underestimate the stupidity of the general public. Just look at the 2000 & 2004 elections. :wall: I'm not saying ban them from speaking, I'm saying watch out for when they're positioning that knife behind your back. Until then, I'm satisfied with tearing them to shreds in debates. :

 

Wait, what do you mean about the knife behind your back?

[Unoalexi]

I'm running on the possibility that at least a few of these people might be brave or mad enough to try and take over the gov't by force. What I'm saying is that if they were to attempt such in America, flawed as it is, the vast majority would step in and kick some conehead [donkey]. And never underestimate the stupidity of the general public. Just look at the 2000 & 2004 elections. :wall: I'm not saying ban them from speaking, I'm saying watch out for when they're positioning that knife behind your back. Until then, I'm satisfied with tearing them to shreds in debates. :

 

Wait, what do you mean about the knife behind your back?

 

 

 

He doesn't trust racists.. Heck I wouldn't trust them either to be honest.(I'm not British so I guess I'm "the lesser race" or whatever)

 

 

 

I still think they should have Freedom of Speech though..

[rushrock]

^ Ahh, I see, ty.

[mrpez]

Peace no longer exists.

 

Sadly...

 

 

 

Of course it does, you're just not looking in the right place.

[Defender2516]

So your saying you don't like racists? What are you man.. a racist?! <-- little joke.

 

 

 

Racism still widely exists, its just expressed on lower levels, due to cosequences, like the United States, for example. I still believe its at levels higher than before.

 

 

 

Look at the arabs, they want to kill us just because we side with Isreal, their #1 enemy. Not all, Arabs, mind you.

 

 

 

Either way, Racism will never die while we hold control due to the fact that we never seem to be able to change the human element.

 

 

 

Utopia, and holding hands isn't going to fix things.

[Capone_Sabre]

I just can't understand why the British can't see how important it is to stop mentally sick people from spreading their racist and xenophobic ideas. They are begging to repeat the events of Balkan, this time not against croats, serbs or bosnians, but against ethnic minorities in the UK.

 

 

 

The BNP is a loonatic fringe party which is only taken seriously by 0.01% of the population. :roll:

 

 

 

Out of 669 seats in our parliament they have 0 and did not even get close to winning one. They have been around in one form or another for at least 30 years and have never even got close to winning a single seat because British people despise racism more than any other culture I've ever experienced.

 

 

 

The idea that letting their leader speak at the oxford union is going to lead to genocide is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. The UK is a well integrated intelligent society not a segregated third world country. There has never been genocide in this country and never will be. 99.99% of people here despise racism. Letting a few loonys speak is not going to change that.

 

 

 

Britain has a long history of freedom of speech and an equally long history of opposing fascism and racism. Continuing our tradition of freedom of speech will not change that.

 

 

 

The speechs made by Griffin are only borderline racist (though I am sure he is a racist at heart) they are NOTHING compared to the public speeches and rallies by the black shirts in the 1930s. If Britain didn't turn to fascism and genocide then, or at any time during our history, what can one lunatic do with no support? -.-

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Oh, and if you think that banning people like this will stop them from spreading their word you are wrong. They will simply go underground and use the internet. If he had been banned from speaking in public, I guarantee you more people would have heard that speech.