Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs

[Necromagus]

Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs.

 

 

 

Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Full article here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Read it. Then read it again slowly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's right, chances are you're living in a country where the judges tell you what you can and can't teach your child. A cookie to anyone who can explain me just how this can be justified within the boundaries of American and international law.

[Mayjest]

It can't. I haven't read the article, but it seems self explanatory.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Separation of Church and State (can't remember which amendment, or if it was an amendment at all), stops a judge from passing a judgement like this. It only happened because it's Indianapolis. It'll get overturned eventually.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

While I'm all for individual rights and such, it may not be the brightest idea to expose a child to Wicca. Devil worship isn't healthy.

[Necromagus]

While I'm all for individual rights and such, it may not be the brightest idea to expose a child to Wicca. Devil worship isn't healthy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:roll:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry, I'm not in the mood to cure ignorance right now. All I'll say right now is Wicca =/= devil worship. Just read the brief explanation in the article to begin with...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What is Wicca?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wicca is not a centralized religion but a belief system observed by 50,000 Americans that is recognized by reference texts such as the U.S. Army Chaplain's Handbook.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wicca is related to European tribal nature worship. Wiccans regard living things as sacred and often show a concern for the environment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

They do not worship Satan, but some cast "spells." Some worship in the nude as a sign of attunement with nature.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The core value of Wicca states, "As it harm none, do what you will."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-- Star report

[ford_rule]

aint paganism the worship of nature and women and all that stuff?

[insane]

That's right, chances are you're living in a country where the judges tell you what you can and can't teach your child. A cookie to anyone who can explain me just how this can be justified within the boundaries of American and international law.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Justification: A parent teaches their child to murder an innocent baby every day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This, should not be allowed to be taught. And it is justified within the boundaries of international moral law.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What's my point? Some things should *definately* not be taught to children. There's a line that should not be crossed. I give no opinion on this issue specifically, but this whole "American freedom" thing is always abused and taken out of context.

[Mayjest]

So explain that to the girl at my school. She used follow wicca, and has been to and taken part in some fairly odd things. Animal Scarfices (involving lots of blood), mas masicism followed by a mass orgy. I.e., everyone cut themselves, then had an orgy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Plus, I am a Christian. She used to run and hide from me, claiming that my head was on fire and the power inherent within me scared her. Head on fire sounds a lot like pentecost, and which power runs from God? The devil. Makes a lot of sense to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

She has since left Wicca, though hasn't become a Christian yet. She realised that the power that was in me was greater than the power she was worshipping, so she left.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, that may not have been proper Wicca. It was probably a 'corrupted' version. But she was lured in through the 'it's just being in tune with Nature' stuff as well. Look how that turned out. ;) Next time you "cure ignorance", make sure it's actual ignorance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But as I said, it will be over turned eventually. Amercian Law demands it. The state department may not like it, heck, I'm not keen on it, but I'd rather people had the freedom to do something and chose not to, than were forced not to.

[Necromagus]

Simple. She was quite clearly insane. The way you put it, you generalise all Wicca as devil worship. I've seen those thirteen-year old girls run around with their black dresses, overdose of eyeliner and a constant need for attention. A lot of people between 12 and 15 simply use it as a way to rebel against parents/teachers/church. It's because of the image they project and the biased generalisations like the one you brought forwards in your first post that 'normal' Wiccans usually have to hide their beliefs from friends, colleagues, and even family.

[____]

I have quite a few friends who practice Wicca.

 

 

 

None of them are yet to fall into that generalisation that you stated, mayjest.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I even used to browse the occultforums for a while and they had a big distaste for people who went around trolling that the Wiccans were devil worshipers and junk like you mentioned.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IMO what she was involved in was not Wicca.

[Herr]

 

That's right, chances are you're living in a country where the judges tell you what you can and can't teach your child. A cookie to anyone who can explain me just how this can be justified within the boundaries of American and international law.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Justification: A parent teaches their child to murder an innocent baby every day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Relevance? The article already said it would be understandable were they exposing the child to drugs or any similar thing which could do them harm.

[Pyro]

If you get to force your child to spend a lot of time in church honoring a god who commited genocide against his people because they turned away from him, then yes, you get to force your child to worship nature just aswell instead. Having a judge decide what is and what isn't good religion is sick, even though I find it disturbing to "teach" children what to believe to start with.

[hambonez]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

She has since left Wicca, though hasn't become a Christian yet. She realised that the power that was in me was greater than the power she was worshipping, so she left.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yet?!?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh and tack one up for a burn on pyro's scorecard :P he's got you there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But back to the original question. The Federal Laws only apply to religions granted federal approval by having so many participants or whoever can line their pockets the most. There is nothing wrong with Wiccan or Pagans except that the current Reich of Christians we have running this country will never accept them as a Federally recognized church. Which unfortunately will keep them from being able to be protected under the first amendment.

[jafnn]

The only possible thing I could find for this to be justified, is that he goes to a Catholic school and that there could be to much stress (which he alread has because of his parents divorce) on the boy if he is tought 2 religions.

[cjlhdevil]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

She has since left Wicca, though hasn't become a Christian yet. She realised that the power that was in me was greater than the power she was worshipping, so she left.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yet?!?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh and tack one up for a burn on pyro's scorecard :P he's got you there.

Ha! The power within you was greater so she stopped worshipping? I use to respect your posts but now you seem like another christian nut to me.(Not aimed at all christians only those who think that they are better then the rest of the world)

[Herr]

Plus, I am a Christian. She used to run and hide from me, claiming that my head was on fire and the power inherent within me scared her. Head on fire sounds a lot like pentecost, and which power runs from God? The devil. Makes a lot of sense to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Interesting, because it doesn't make sense to most of us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like what you had there was a crackpot, not a Wiccan.

[Lionheart_0]

hmm the canadian charter of rights is sounding mighty good atm...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One is allowed to practise any religion (ANY) as long as it dosent conflict with any laws (such as lets say a religion where you are told to attack, kill or do something to others is not allowed.).

[insane]

 

 

That's right, chances are you're living in a country where the judges tell you what you can and can't teach your child. A cookie to anyone who can explain me just how this can be justified within the boundaries of American and international law.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Justification: A parent teaches their child to murder an innocent baby every day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Relevance? The article already said it would be understandable were they exposing the child to drugs or any similar thing which could do them harm.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wasn't talking about the article. He said a cookie for anyone who can explain to him how prohibiting teaching something to a child.... etc.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Surely you saw that when you quoted it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you get to force your child to spend a lot of time in church honoring a god who commited genocide against his people because they turned away from him, then yes, you get to force your child to worship nature just aswell instead. Having a judge decide what is and what isn't good religion is sick, even though I find it disturbing to "teach" children what to believe to start with.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So is it disturbing that the public school system has a cirriculum that kids are *required* to learn? That's forcing children what to believe just as much as this case.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having a judge decide what is and what isn't good religion is sick?

I don't believe in an absolute right and wrong

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That sounds pretty absolute to me. And even if it isn't;

 

 

 

They say morals are subjective but... That's just wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what is it? Are things right or wrong? Your entire post hinges on this one decision, and so far, you've been shown to support both sides.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And just for the record - God did *not* commit genocide against his people, he exiled them, after countless (and by countless I mean quite a few) warnings. He also had a plan for their redemption *before* he exiled them. They knew what would happen if they turned away. I mean, this might not justify it in your eyes, but think about it. If you tell a child - if you do this, then these are the consequences. The child says okay, and then goes ahead and does whatever they weren't supposed to do anyways. Can you possibly say it's wrong to follow through with that the child *knew* was coming beforehand?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe if you backed that statement up with the scripture you got it from, or maybe read the Bible firsthand (maybe you have, who knows, but this post doesn't show it), I'd count you as a trustworthy source on the Bible.

[Astralinre]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As a Christian, I disagree with Wicca and believe it is wrong. However, the state has no right to prohibit a citizen from practicing it. Neither does it have the right to tell a teacher he can't display the 10 Commandments in a class room, or the right to suspect a man of supporting terrorism simply because he's Muslim, or the right to remove prayer from public events. I personally believe that Wicca shouldn't be taught, but I would never give the state the right to make it illegal. If they state could rule against Wicca, it could just as easily make Christianity illegal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Then again, Christianity was illegal, or at least frowned upon, during most of it's early life, and it experienced huge growth then. I don't really think that's relevant to this situation though.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But still, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I want to be able to worship God without the state telling me I can't, so I believe they should also have the right to worship as they please. To my fellow Christians: if you don't want people practicing Wicca, evangelize. :)

[Pyro]

 

 

 

If you get to force your child to spend a lot of time in church honoring a god who commited genocide against his people because they turned away from him, then yes, you get to force your child to worship nature just aswell instead. Having a judge decide what is and what isn't good religion is sick, even though I find it disturbing to "teach" children what to believe to start with.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So is it disturbing that the public school system has a cirriculum that kids are *required* to learn? That's forcing children what to believe just as much as this case.

 

 

 

Children should be taught about all major religions, purely for the educational value. There is however a difference between teaching children that Christians believe in God, and teaching children that God exists. This seems obvious enough. I'm not familiar with the school system where you live, so I have no idea what they must and must not learn there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having a judge decide what is and what isn't good religion is sick?

I don't believe in an absolute right and wrong

.

 

 

 

That sounds pretty absolute to me. And even if it isn't;

 

 

 

They say morals are subjective but... That's just wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what is it? Are things right or wrong? Your entire post hinges on this one decision, and so far, you've been shown to support both sides.

 

 

 

Don't be ridiculous. The first quote concerns "natural rights", IE, what is right and what is not from a philosophical perspective. The second concerns my personal opinion, which I do not consider to be the "One True". I'm arrogant, but not that arrogant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My personal opinion on this matter is that anyone who takes upon himself the right to choose which religion may not be taught to others is an idiot, for lack of a better word. The judge in question qualifies. Christianity is currently the leading religion in the western world, but contrary to what many seem to think this does not make it any better than any other religion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And just for the record - God did *not* commit genocide against his people, he exiled them, after countless (and by countless I mean quite a few) warnings. He also had a plan for their redemption *before* he exiled them. They knew what would happen if they turned away. I mean, this might not justify it in your eyes, but think about it. If you tell a child - if you do this, then these are the consequences. The child says okay, and then goes ahead and does whatever they weren't supposed to do anyways. Can you possibly say it's wrong to follow through with that the child *knew* was coming beforehand?

Maybe my version of the bible is outdated, but I seem to recall a great flood and the death of all that lives except a few that were spared? Interesting example though. Letting a child know that he needs to worship you, or else you shall drown him, clearly gives you the right to do so.

[jesselt]

I don't feel the need to quote everyone, so I'm just going to say it and you should know who you are....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

She wasn't a "rebel" Wicca, she wanted attention, or was really weird or crazy. Just like Christians that tell people that they are going to hell aren't "rebel" Christians, they are just insane for thinking that they have the power to know who is going to hell.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Teaching you kids your religion (worshipping nature) is ALOT different from teaching you kids to murder someone. Your just dumb and there's no hope for you at all if you fail to see the difference.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

rofl @ pyro~ You're now in my sig :P

[KnightLite]

you never know what the judges might do next, but in my own personal opinion, I think they would be right in preventing the teaching of Wicca.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

just my own opinion

[cjlhdevil]

you never know what the judges might do next, but in my own personal opinion, I think they would be right in preventing the teaching of Wicca.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

just my own opinion

Give a reason for your opinion please?

[KnightLite]

I dont believe in Wiccan, I dont really believe in any religion, but Wiccan is the only Religion that I don't believe in, if that makes sense

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All the kids at my school that are Wiccan are the wierdest one's of our school, smokin pot 24/7 and always in trouble, just the lowest type of life on earth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No offense if you are Wiccan and you are not like that, but that's just what I've experienced with Wiccans.

[insane]

 

 

 

 

If you get to force your child to spend a lot of time in church honoring a god who commited genocide against his people because they turned away from him, then yes, you get to force your child to worship nature just aswell instead. Having a judge decide what is and what isn't good religion is sick, even though I find it disturbing to "teach" children what to believe to start with.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So is it disturbing that the public school system has a cirriculum that kids are *required* to learn? That's forcing children what to believe just as much as this case.

 

 

 

Children should be taught about all major religions, purely for the educational value. There is however a difference between teaching children that Christians believe in God, and teaching children that God exists. This seems obvious enough. I'm not familiar with the school system where you live, so I have no idea what they must and must not learn there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Having a judge decide what is and what isn't good religion is sick?

I don't believe in an absolute right and wrong

.

 

 

 

That sounds pretty absolute to me. And even if it isn't;

 

 

 

They say morals are subjective but... That's just wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So what is it? Are things right or wrong? Your entire post hinges on this one decision, and so far, you've been shown to support both sides.

 

 

 

Don't be ridiculous. The first quote concerns "natural rights", IE, what is right and what is not from a philosophical perspective. The second concerns my personal opinion, which I do not consider to be the "One True". I'm arrogant, but not that arrogant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My personal opinion on this matter is that anyone who takes upon himself the right to choose which religion may not be taught to others is an idiot, for lack of a better word. The judge in question qualifies. Christianity is currently the leading religion in the western world, but contrary to what many seem to think this does not make it any better than any other religion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for clarifying :D

[Dark_Tigra]

So explain that to the girl at my school. She used follow wicca, and has been to and taken part in some fairly odd things. Animal Scarfices (involving lots of blood), mas masicism followed by a mass orgy. I.e., everyone cut themselves, then had an orgy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Plus, I am a Christian. She used to run and hide from me, claiming that my head was on fire and the power inherent within me scared her. Head on fire sounds a lot like pentecost, and which power runs from God? The devil. Makes a lot of sense to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

She has since left Wicca, though hasn't become a Christian yet. She realised that the power that was in me was greater than the power she was worshipping, so she left.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, that may not have been proper Wicca. It was probably a 'corrupted' version. But she was lured in through the 'it's just being in tune with Nature' stuff as well. Look how that turned out. ;) Next time you "cure ignorance", make sure it's actual ignorance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But as I said, it will be over turned eventually. Amercian Law demands it. The state department may not like it, heck, I'm not keen on it, but I'd rather people had the freedom to do something and chose not to, than were forced not to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're full of crap. Wiccan's don't sacrifice animals, at all. I know a few Wiccan's and they'd laugh hysterically at your complete BS. I'm willing to bet anything that your babbling is based 100% on your being a Christian and thinking Wiccan is "evil", which therefore makes YOU ignorant.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, it's completely dumb. People can worship whatever they want. Doing this is no different than saying Christians can't worship Christ/God. Just because it's not "mainstream" means it's not okay? Yea, whatever...

[jesselt]

I dont believe in Wiccan, I dont really believe in any religion, but Wiccan is the only Religion that I don't believe in, if that makes sense no, no it doesn't

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All the kids at my school that are Wiccan are the wierdest one's of our school, smokin pot 24/7 and always in trouble, just the lowest type of life on earth.and all the christains at my school run around throwing holy water on people and shouting that everyone but them will go to hell. Not. I just cant base a whole religion on a few people like you did.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No offense if you are Wiccan and you are not like that, but that's just what I've experienced with Wiccans.