The problems with the economy

[De_Lille_D]

Hello, this is a topic to discuss the problems with the economy and find possible solutions to them.

 

 

 

 

 

1) Junk trading:

 

Problem: People are using junk items to make rare items like animal masks and 3rd age armour more expensive. This is the most common way to bypass the trade limit. It also allows Real World Trading (buy a junk item for lowest, then sell it to the macroer for middle price, he put it in GE for lowest price and you repeat).

 

Possible solution:

 

 

 

2) Real World Trading:

 

Problem: Even though Jagex released the trade limit and deleted the PvP Wilderness, RWT is still possible; either through junk trading, or through Bounty Hunter (if you know any other ways, please post them). This leads to macroing and all the problems that follow.

 

Possible solution:

 

 

 

3) Price manipulation:

 

Problem: Groups of very wealthy people buy up entire stocks of items, in order to make the price of those items rise. Then they either wait for the price to rise, or they use junk trading via the forums to sell for double the price.

 

Possible solution:

[Deathmath]

Hello, this is a topic to discuss the problems with the economy and find possible solutions to them.

 

 

 

 

 

1) Junk trading:

 

Problem: People are using junk items to make rare items like animal masks and 3rd age armour more expensive. This is the most common way to bypass the trade limit. It also allows Real World Trading (buy a junk item for lowest, then sell it to the macroer for middle price, he put it in GE for lowest price and you repeat).

 

Possible solution: Lower prices of junk which would not be very effective at least and disastrous at worst.

 

 

 

2) Real World Trading:

 

Problem: Even though Jagex released the trade limit and deleted the PvP Wilderness, RWT is still possible; either through junk trading, or through Bounty Hunter (if you know any other ways, please post them). This leads to macroing and all the problems that follow.

 

Possible solution: It's inconvenient, it's as hard as it will get.

 

 

 

3) Price manipulation:

 

Problem: Groups of very wealthy people buy up entire stocks of items, in order to make the price of those items rise. Then they either wait for the price to rise, or they use junk trading via the forums to sell for double the price.

 

Possible solution: There is not one, it is simple market economics.

[De_Lille_D]

 

1) Possible solution: Lower prices of junk which would not be very effective at least and disastrous at worst.

 

2) Possible solution: It's inconvenient, it's as hard as it will get.

 

3) Possible solution: There is not one, it is simple market economics.

 

 

 

 

1) Some items, which are categorized as junk by some might be very useful for others (takes summoning scrolls for example). If someone made these scrolls to make money and the prices went down, they would lose a large amount of money. I don't think you should deal with the "junk" part, because it's easily replaceable, but more with the "trading".

 

For example: if each player can only offer 1 kind of item, you wouldn't be able to junk trade.

 

 

 

2) Are you saying you don't know?

 

I think the best way to approach this problem is to divide it into all the possibilities they have to transfer money. Currently, I got 2 of them, but I'm sure there are more ways than that. We should try to find more ways before we begin suggesting solutions.

 

 

 

3) There's always a solution! Obviously, it will have to change the way the prices are decided, so that you can't control them on your own, or with a large group. Maybe, Jagex could create extra items on the GE if they were taking out massively. This way, there would be some supply, and the demand wouldn't be as high.

[Alg]

There really would be no way around Junk Trades, more or less they're a loophole in the trade system. You're not just buying an Animal Mask, you're buying an animal mask and an obscene amount of skill byproducts, and thus, have to pay full for all of them.

 

 

 

RWT is very limited by Bounty Hunter, as people make it their goal to hunt down the traders. Often, they succeed, though I'm sure many are missed. The best thing to combat this is just to get more people aware of the profits to be had here :twisted: .

 

As for Junk Trading, people probably buy gold because for whatever reason they can't or won't get it themselves. Would they really spend all that time getting however many million in useless items?

 

 

 

For 3, there really wouldn't be a solution. You really can't keep rich people from buying things, can you?

[De_Lille_D]

There really would be no way around Junk Trades, more or less they're a loophole in the trade system. You're not just buying an Animal Mask, you're buying an animal mask and an obscene amount of skill byproducts, and thus, have to pay full for all of them.

 

If you could only trade 1 kind of item at a time, wouldn't that solve it? If it wasn't possible to offer a mask and junk in the same trade, the problem would be solved.

 

 

 

RWT is very limited by Bounty Hunter, as people make it their goal to hunt down the traders. Often, they succeed, though I'm sure many are missed. The best thing to combat this is just to get more people aware of the profits to be had here :twisted: .

 

If you can find a empty BH world and bring enough RWTers, you can have the crater to yourself (you need 10 people to be able to enter). Also, if they only bring a fury, they can protect item and it's completely safe for them.

 

 

 

As for Junk Trading, people probably buy gold because for whatever reason they can't or won't get it themselves. Would they really spend all that time getting however many million in useless items?

 

If you buy at low and sell at middle price in normal trade, you can easily transfer money (pm me if you want me to explain further).

 

 

 

For 3, there really wouldn't be a solution. You really can't keep rich people from buying things, can you?

 

How about making the market non-player controlled. That would certainly solve it (a little extreme though). Or how about limiting th amount of items someone can buy from the Ge in a day (who needs 150 tassets anyway)?

[mervinator_9]

For 3' date=' there really wouldn't be a solution. You really can't keep rich people from buying things, can you?

 

How about making the market non-player controlled. That would certainly solve it (a little extreme though). Or how about limiting th amount of items someone can buy from the Ge in a day (who needs 150 tassets anyway)?

 

 

 

yuk... a jagex controlled market would be horrible imo, how would they decide what needed its price rising + lowering?

 

 

 

The second idea sounds better to me but is also quite impractical, how do you decided how many of something someone needs? When does an item change from being in the infinite number allowed caterogy to the 20 allowed category?

 

 

 

If you could only trade 1 kind of item at a time, wouldn't that solve it? If it wasn't possible to offer a mask and junk in the same trade, the problem would be solved.

 

That makes sense to a point. although couldnt someone just sell the animal mask/junk first for market rate and then sell the junk/mask 2 seconds later?

 

 

 

As far as Rwt is concerned it may not be stopped but it was crippeled by the december updates and tbh i relly dont think it posses such a threat to the game anymore, there aren't autoers running rampant anymore so I'm happy. Best way to remove this would be remove Bh, which after the next pvp update maybe a possibility, but its a little harsh

 

 

 

 

 

Tbh though i think your looking for problems which aren't there,

 

 

 

Debatedly junk trading is just an emergent gameplay feature which has happened, and depending who you talk to, isnt really a problem.

 

 

 

Rwt, is definately a problem, but so much has been sarificed to get it down to the level it is now, im not sure we should sacrifice more,

 

 

 

Price manipulation, the ever present boogey man hiding under the G.E trapdoor, we've all heard of these clans and groups buying up vast quanities of items to sell them on at an increased value but how much damage are they really doing? Recently when the prices of items began to fall people instinctivly turned to these groups but i dont believe for a second they were to blame. Its easy for people to point the finger as well, the second they see a blip on a G.E graph, the shout goes up without any/or little evidence. Some market fluxutations happen and cant really be explained.

[Deathmath]

 

1) Possible solution: Lower prices of junk which would not be very effective at least and disastrous at worst.

 

2) Possible solution: It's inconvenient, it's as hard as it will get.

 

3) Possible solution: There is not one, it is simple market economics.

 

 

 

 

1) Some items, which are categorized as junk by some might be very useful for others (takes summoning scrolls for example). If someone made these scrolls to make money and the prices went down, they would lose a large amount of money. I don't think you should deal with the "junk" part, because it's easily replaceable, but more with the "trading".

 

For example: if each player can only offer 1 kind of item, you wouldn't be able to junk trade. of course true, I was trying to give an answer, everything will be 'junk', and as things may be useful they aren't junk so...

 

 

 

2) Are you saying you don't know?

 

I think the best way to approach this problem is to divide it into all the possibilities they have to transfer money. Currently, I got 2 of them, but I'm sure there are more ways than that. We should try to find more ways before we begin suggesting solutions. (well you can't make trading illegal)

 

 

 

3) There's always a solution! Obviously, it will have to change the way the prices are decided, so that you can't control them on your own, or with a large group. Maybe, Jagex could create extra items on the GE if they were taking out massively. This way, there would be some supply, and the demand wouldn't be as high.

 

if somebody wants to manipulate prices, which by the way is smart not stupid they will be able to do it It happens in real life too, people would buy large amounts of commodities and rip people off for them, not to mention that the only laws to combat this was FDR and his trust busting, but you can't do this in a virtual economy, and besides it's not even a monopoly

[De_Lille_D]

yuk... a jagex controlled market would be horrible imo, how would they decide what needed its price rising + lowering?

 

You are all so focused on the economy we have now! Try thinking outside the box: who says that prices have to go up and down every day?

 

Don't forget that if you look at the big picture, Jagex usually takes pretty good decisions.

 

 

 

When does an item change from being in the infinite number allowed category to the 20 allowed category?

 

Depending on their use, price and popularity... Also, they could temporarily apply it on certain items that have a high probability of being abused (ahrims when PvP worlds come out).

 

 

 

although couldnt someone just sell the animal mask/junk first for market rate and then sell the junk/mask 2 seconds later?

 

That isn't junk trading anymore: it's trading fairly and then transferring money to another account (just like RWTing)... If you find a solution to RWT, you'll find a solution to this too. Don't forget that most people would simply buy the mask and log out, leaving the seller without his extra cash. Or, if the junk gets sold first, the mask will not get sold.

 

 

 

Debatedly junk trading is just an emergent gameplay feature which has happened, and depending who you talk to, isnt really a problem.

 

Do you think drunk driving is a problem? Driving while drunk in itself isn't really, but doing it usually leads to accidents and those are a big problem.

 

Therefore: something that inevitably leads to a problem is a problem itself!

 

Same could be said for junk trading: it's bypassing the trade limit and will lead to RWting. RWTing is a problem ... (you said so yourself)

 

 

 

im not sure we should sacrifice more

 

If we stop now, all the things we've given up will be for nothing. If there's a way to abuse a system, sooner or later, there will be people will abuse it; that's simply how people work...

 

 

 

but how much damage are they really doing?

 

Ask yourself that question when you will only be able to buy Ahrim of the forums for 5 mill... The fact that you have to couch up more money isn't even the biggest downside; if they understand they can make big bugs out of this, they will continue to use it (because it works) and more items will become extremely expensive. Like a big snowball rolling down a hill, more and more will items become horribly overpriced...

 

You have to stop problems BEFORE they can do any big damage.

 

 

 

Some market fluxutations happen and cant really be explained.

 

Everything can be explained (in theory), some things are just too complex. If you look at the GE trades you can easily see why it went up/down (but we simply cant access that data).

 

 

 

if somebody wants to manipulate prices, (...) they will be able to do it

 

Not if we make it impossible ...

 

The sentence "anything is possible as long as you want it enough" is just a load of [fertilizer].

[Deathmath]

A group of people could legitimately want a lot of a certain type of armor, what are you going to do, stop them?

[mervinator_9]

although couldnt someone just sell the animal mask/junk first for market rate and then sell the junk/mask 2 seconds later?

 

That isn't junk trading anymore: it's trading fairly and then transferring money to another account (just like RWTing)... If you find a solution to RWT, you'll find a solution to this too. Don't forget that most people would simply buy the mask and log out, leaving the seller without his extra cash. Or, if the junk gets sold first, the mask will not get sold.

 

 

 

Well thats junk trading, your giving the right amount of money for an item, the item is just something you dont want and basically will never be used, but still has (in jagexs eyes) some value,

 

 

 

So i sell you an animal mask for the jagex price(but way below street price), then i sell you thousands of maple longs(bad example but still) for the jagex price,(but way above the street price) basic i have given you the item you wanted for the correct price but you have still junk traded. The maples cannot be turned into the amount of cash jagex says there worth as they cant be alched or sold to general store for anywhere near the amonut jagex prices them. That is exactly how people operate there trade now, only in two steps.

 

In response to the mask being purchased and then someone logging, if that was a problem the junk would just be traded first, still risky but as junk is becoming a currentcy its nowhere near as risky.

 

 

 

 

Some market fluxutations happen and cant really be explained.

 

Everything can be explained (in theory), some things are just too complex. If you look at the GE trades you can easily see why it went up/down (but we simply cant access that data).

 

 

 

Not everything with economys (even simple ones) things really cant always be explained, with or without the data your talking about (which i dont really understand, as we have access to item trade historys anyway). For example what was the latest blip about? something its as simple as people going back to school, others say its groups buy vast quantities of items to make a profit, still others say it is down to the pvp updates which are coming. Theres no definitive answer because as you say its to complex, tinyest things can cause these changes to, something decreases in price, everyone panics and sells and the price plummets.

 

 

 

Debatedly junk trading is just an emergent gameplay feature which has happened, and depending who you talk to, isnt really a problem.

 

Do you think drunk driving is a problem? Driving while drunk in itself isn't really, but doing it usually leads to accidents and those are a big problem.

 

Therefore: something that inevitably leads to a problem is a problem itself!

 

Same could be said for junk trading: it's bypassing the trade limit and will lead to RWting. RWTing is a problem ... (you said so yourself).

 

Junk trading is basically exchanging goods for money, so on paper theres nothing wrong with it, to move vast quantites of money you need vast quantites of junk, so its not as major an rwt threat as Bh. The people purphasing the gold would need large amounts of junk to receive large amounts of money, and in the time it would take to accumulate the junk they probably could just make the money they were gonna buy.

 

 

 

 

but how much damage are they really doing?

 

Ask yourself that question when you will only be able to buy Ahrim of the forums for 5 mill... The fact that you have to couch up more money isn't even the biggest downside; if they understand they can make big bugs out of this, they will continue to use it (because it works) and more items will become extremely expensive. Like a big snowball rolling down a hill, more and more will items become horribly overpriced...

 

You have to stop problems BEFORE they can do any big damage.

 

 

 

Wait a second, an 800k item increasing more than 6 times in price due to price manipulation?

 

I think thats definatly far fetched, as i said before there is little evidence to see how much effect these groups have, and with the economy treads so hard to explain theres never really gonna be.

 

But taking that example out of the the equation the only time price manipulations (supposedly) have ever seemed to have worked is on Extremely rare items were the majority of the current stock can be bought.

 

The last example of saw of this was the Ags being targeted, did its price massively increase? No, it just didnt drop as fast. To do what your saying about ahrims on such a scale would require enomourous amounts of money to just choke the market of stock and even then, it may not work as people with current ahrims sets would just sell there stock and more sets or brought into the game each day.

[De_Lille_D]

A group of people could legitimately want a lot of a certain type of armor, what are you going to do, stop them?

 

Though luck? You'll have to spread your sales over a couple of weeks in order to get your 200 whips...

 

 

 

Well thats junk trading ...

 

Junk trading: selling an underpriced item with a lot of overpriced items in 1 trade

 

My example: Because it's not in the same trade, you shouldn't see it as junk trading, but more like trading and transferring money afterwards...

 

 

 

if that was a problem the junk would just be traded first

 

Scamming can go both ways... The seller could log after selling his junk.

 

 

 

Not everything with economys (even simple ones) things really cant always be explained

 

I wasn't thinking in economics; I was speaking in general.

 

The data I was referring to is a list of all the sales regarding a certain item.

 

 

 

to move vast quantites of money you need vast quantites of junk

 

Not true. Here's a guide to RWT I made up which need only a limited amount of junk:

 

- First, you find an item that will supposedly sell at lowest price and that has a price which is a multiple of 20. Best chance you'll have is search for Summoning scrolls.

 

- Then you buy a lot of these scrolls at lowest price in GE (the lowest price being 0.95*X, with X as market price)

 

- You sell the scrolls to someone who stands next to you, for the market price (X). You gain 0.05*X gp (may seem small, but this could be done really fast).

 

- The person who bought the junk sell it back to GE for lowest price.

 

 

 

Each time you do this, the money you invest gets multiplied by 1.05 (you win 5%). Because all scrolls are put back into GE, you can do this forever (until the person buying the junk in trades runs out of money)...

 

 

 

Wait a second, an 800k item increasing more than 6 times in price due to price manipulation?

 

I made up that price ...

 

 

 

there is little evidence to see how much effect these groups have

 

When Fist of Guthix came out, someone bought up all the Ahrim robe bottoms and sold them way overpriced on the forums! Prices went up a lot; and that's from 1 person!

[Lordtunkuta]

I blame the Grand Exchange=my 5 cents

[Yomyth105]

listen there will always be some kind of abuse in the economy and such. making more limits will just destroy the game. the numbers have already been reduced tremendously and the fun of the old wild is gone. the game has taken a big hit. we dont need any more hits on our gameplay. just leave it as it is. there r no more trillions of macroers. all is fine. :thumbsup:

[De_Lille_D]

I blame the Grand Exchange=my 5 cents

 

I agree that there's something wrong with the GE (why else would I have made this thread?), but I doubt we agree on what is problem really is. If you ask me, the GE is just too free to work properly.

 

Runescape isn't a game about buying and selling stuff; it's about doing quests, playing minigames, training skills or just plain having fun. The liberal GE creates possibilities for people to rip other people off... This is unfair and unacceptable if you are trying to make an honest game.

 

 

 

listen there will always be some kind of abuse in the economy and such. making more limits will just destroy the game. the numbers have already been reduced tremendously and the fun of the old wild is gone. the game has taken a big hit. we dont need any more hits on our gameplay. just leave it as it is. there r no more trillions of macroers. all is fine. :thumbsup:

 

This is NOTHING like removing wild!

 

If they would alter the GE in the way I propose, it wouldn't ruin a game feature (you would still be able to buy items ...) let alone remove it (that would be more like removing trade completely ...).

 

No one really play Runescape for the buying and the selling; and if they do, they are sad ... really really sad ... If you take joy in ripping people off, you clearly don't get the point of the game.

 

 

 

Also, limits are sometimes good; they can be compared to the laws you have in your country.

 

Would you really be happy it all those limits would go away? That usually leads to anarchy and chaos.

 

 

 

Your "leave it as it is" comment just shows that you are afraid of change. Afraid that other things will happen that you don't want. But remember that the game gets updates several times a month and that eventually they will change the GE too; it's just a matter of time.

 

Just embrace the fact that it will and try to help improve it, instead of hoping the updates will stay away.

 

 

 

 

 

This will be my last post on this thread and perhaps even this forum for a long time, because university just doesn't leave much time for debating on Runescape issues.

 

Please don't reply anymore ... (I'll just delete the mail anyway)

[Danno385]

Well I am sorry to say I have done this. I gave my friend over 100k thru bh.

 

 

 

Buy addys and bring them into bh have someone kill you. as easy as that. Why addys? sell instantly at min and buy instantly at max. yyou can only bring in 1k at a time though so that is another reason to use addys. This could also be done with laws, nature, or another expensive rune.

[bcranger0]

Especially after the release of PVP worlds...the economy is totally crippled.

 

 

 

Prices are skyrocketing and there is absolutely NO ONE selling essential supplies for pkers.

[Sir_Redhead]

There isn't anything we can do, no matter how they change the game, people will find a way.

 

 

 

They ALWAYS do, it never fails.

[Grogthurk]

I actually think a lot of people are selling supplies, but too many people are BUYING out the supplies too fast.