I'm fine with universal health care and a redistribution of taxes towards the higher income brackets. I don't see why anyone should have anything against that.

 

 

 

It'd be interesting to know then Sly.. which part of the political spectrum would you say you occupy?

 

 

 

I would have thought, due to the religious side of things you would be centre-right or far right but now I'm not so sure..

 

 

 

Your political compass

 

Economic Left/Right: -5.00

 

Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.85

 

 

 

Right, like everyone who earned their wealth is Joe the Plumber.

 

 

 

No, but a vast majority were already born privileged.

 

 

 

I came from an average family...slightly higher than average actually (dad makes $80,000 atm but he's a Federal employee). I am working for it, but you have to remember that I was still given opportunities that the average American is not. The average household in America makes $45,000 a year, and I'd say it's a lot lower than that simply because of the richest 5% owning more than HALF of the wealth, and 20% own over 80% of the wealth. So really, just because Bill Gates walks into a bar, not everyone is a millionaire simply because he makes billions to average everyone else out. I hope you understand what I meant by that.

 

 

 

However, I was privileged. I didn't have to drop out of high school, and get a job, just to help my parents pay the bills. I didn't get a teenage woman pregnant, while not having received proper sexual education to know about the consequences. I didn't grow up in poverty. I didn't go to a [cabbage] high school. I was given many opportunities that I didn't work for, that many others are not given. And even I am struggling.

 

 

 

Obama wants to raise the tax rates to LESS than that of Clinton. How is that out of hand? We had a surplus during the Clinton years, and there was a less wage gap.

 

 

 

America currently has wage gaps worse than countries like Kenya, according to the United Nations (at least that's what we're approaching). Don't you see a problem here?

 

 

 

The thing is, as hard as some people might work and try, it doesn't guarantee prosperity. That is the lie that is the American Dream: few live it.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying it's impossible to stay poor, but it usually is. Poor people are generally poor, because they made bad decisions, I'm not saying they were risky, but generall bad. But I wonder, how do so many poor people rise up to be rich? Simple, the gap is less existant then you guys would like to realize. I mean, it would take a lot of hard work, but it's been done before.

 

Exactly, it's like those people who have ten children and point the finger on Bush for making them poor. There will always be extremely rich and extremely poor people. There's really no way around that, it's the way it's always been.

 

Exactly, it's like those people who have ten children and point the finger on Bush for making them poor. There will always be extremely rich and extremely poor people. There's really no way around that, it's the way it's always been.

 

 

 

Whilst there may be extremely rich and extremely poor people for many generations in the future, it is certainly possible to achieve a system in which everybody is born with equal opportunity.

 

 

 

All it takes is a change in culture/mentality of the people. It happened with slavery, segregation (the whole separate but equal bs), women's suffrage, and there is no reason why it cannot happen with capitalism.

Here's a sad fact, everyone starts out with equal opportunity, but may make choices that erases it. Such as, a white male rich student, will have all the money he needs for college, to succeed. But, an african american from the ghetto who also wants to succeed, can get many scholarships, simply because they're black, and trying to work hard to erase the circumstances they are born with. I look at my friend, she lives in the 'ghetto' of VA Beach, now I doubt any other city would consider it a ghetto, but I do. And her mom is extremely poor, and uneducated, simply because she was raped and so my friend is a rape baby. Thus the mom had to drop all of her plans, in this way, I can see how her opportunity is erased. BUT, my friend, is winning scholarships left and right, simply because she is smart, and she works very hard. And even though she was born with the idea she will get nowhere because of who she is, I imagine she'll be very influential. But, you ahve to realize, socialism, communism, marxism, whatever, KILLS human creativity. Also, (I know most of you are Atheists, but any Christians who voted for Obama, listen to this) the Bible says you reap what you sow, this can be seen condescendinly, but also, not. If you sow 100 seeds, you should and will, in one way or another get the value of 100 seeds back, maybe not all monetary, but in some form. The Bible doesn't say, that if you sow 50 seeds and you're friend sows 100 you each get 75 to be fair, that in no way is Biblical. I know I went off in a tangent, but I'm just putting it out there.

 

Exactly, it's like those people who have ten children and point the finger on Bush for making them poor. There will always be extremely rich and extremely poor people. There's really no way around that, it's the way it's always been.

 

 

 

Whilst there may be extremely rich and extremely poor people for many generations in the future, it is certainly possible to achieve a system in which everybody is born with equal opportunity.

 

 

 

All it takes is a change in culture/mentality of the people. It happened with slavery, segregation (the whole separate but equal bs), women's suffrage, and there is no reason why it cannot happen with capitalism.

 

 

 

The only way really to put everyone on an equal playing field per se without turning into socialism is to offer free 2nd and 3rd level education to all, free healthcare and offer benefits to those who deserve them, the hardworking lower class, people who actually try to get out of the lower class, not those who simply just choose not to work and ride the benefit train for a somewhat comfortable life. Offering free education really does separate those who want to make something out of themselves and those who don't in most circumstances.

 

 

 

Saruman not everyone is born with equal chances. Many of the schools in ghetto regions simply don't compare to schools or private schools often found in middle to upper class neighbor hoods. Many also can't afford healthcare and in some cases they can't even afford the books for school. I do agree mostly with you make yourself out of what you got but in some situations there is huge set backs and handicaps for people, these are often found in the extremely impoverished area.

Also, (I know most of you are Atheists, but any Christians who voted for Obama, listen to this) the Bible says you reap what you sow, this can be seen condescendinly, but also, not. If you sow 100 seeds, you should and will, in one way or another get the value of 100 seeds back, maybe not all monetary, but in some form. The Bible doesn't say, that if you sow 50 seeds and you're friend sows 100 you each get 75 to be fair, that in no way is Biblical. I know I went off in a tangent, but I'm just putting it out there.

 

Um, you may want to re-read the Bible.

 

The Bible is all about helping the poor and SPREADING THE WEALTH.

 

 

 

"Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless; maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed. Rescue the weak and needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked."

 

- Psalm 82:3-4

 

 

 

"He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God."

 

- Proverbs 14:31

 

 

 

"Jesus answered, If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'"

 

- Matthew 19:21

 

 

 

"When Jesus heard this, he said to him, You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'"

 

- Luke 18:22

 

 

 

"If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?"

 

- 1 John 3:17-18

Yea, I know. It is sad, that other parts of cities get less funding. I'm just trying to say, it is possible, no one is doomed to be poor. I mean, maybe some, but in that case it wouldn't be their fault, like 20 year old, who has cancer, and a quadraplegic (sp?) not much you can do there, no offence.

 

 

 

 

 

Lordjake, Jesus said that to the man about selling his posessions, because they meant EVERYTHING to him. It was about a test of faith. And there are ways of helping the poor without giving all your money to them. And some of those verses are out of context, and are about not being greedy.

Lordjake, Jesus said that to the man about selling his posessions, because they meant EVERYTHING to him. It was about a test of faith. And there are ways of helping the poor without giving all your money to them. And some of those verses are out of context, and are about not being greedy.

 

 

 

I'm not saying each of those phrases are pointed towards the greedy, nor is anyone saying Obama would make the wealthy give all their money to the poor. There are plenty more references to helping the poor in the Bible, have your pick of them.

 

I was merely providing proof that the Bible is about spreading the wealth and helping the less fortunate.

 

 

 

The Bible doesn't say, that if you sow 50 seeds and you're friend sows 100 you each get 75 to be fair, that in no way is Biblical.

I've been thinking about the election most of today and here's a bit of what's been on my mind (as an Obama supporter):

 

 

 

I hope you all tuned in to hear his concession speech after he realized Obama had won the general election. By God I have to say that was a great speech and by far the best concession speech I've had the honor of hearing. Unlike many concession speeches before his, he didn't promise to run again and get into office. Instead he spoke nothing but good about his opponent and said he would do what he could to help Obama through these hard times. After hearing him speak, I began thinking about why I hated him so much. And I came to the conclusion that it was because of his supporters acted/spoke about things (though I'm sure it was the same on the opposing end) and that I didn't agree with his policies. I felt neither of which were good reasons to hate a person so instead I offer him my apologies (although I know he'll never hear them). He's a great man and I applaud him for his efforts.

You know what drives me nuts? People treat W. like he's mentally [developmentally delayed]. And so you see all of those dumb flash adds showing him flopping around like a [developmentally delayed], and it says "His IQ is 125! Are you smarter than Bush?" Yet 125 is actually quite intelligent. And already they now show Obama looking all statesmanlike and intelligent, and it says "His IQ is 124, are you smarter than Obama?" They give Bush the higher IQ in those adds and call him [developmentally delayed], give Obama the lower IQ and make him look smart. Media bias, anyone?

 

 

 

If it drives you nuts, the ad did exactly what it was meant to do: A primitive provocation.

 

 

 

Don't take them so seriously, just treat them like those "You are the 6,254,346th visitor! This isn't a joke! Click here to claim your prize" banners, sadly online profiteers will lie about ANYTHING to turn a quick buck. I saw one of those IQ ads too, under it was Paris Hilton's picture and "Her IQ is 120. Are you smarter?"

 

 

 

They make up numbers so people get agitated or embarrassed, and take the test themselves (bringing ad revenue to the bogus IQ test site owner, or referral income)

 

 

 

I hope you all tuned in to hear his concession speech after he realized Obama had won the general election. By God I have to say that was a great speech and by far the best concession speech I've had the honor of hearing. Unlike many concession speeches before his, he didn't promise to run again and get into office. Instead he spoke nothing but good about his opponent and said he would do what he could to help Obama through these hard times. After hearing him speak, I began thinking about why I hated him so much.

 

 

 

I also think McCain's level of respect, integrity and honor went through the roof with that speech, shame on the childish supporters that started booing at him when he stated his support for the next president of the United States, he had every right to say "stop booing". I couldn't find any note of sarcasm or bitterness in his speech, he genuinely accepted the result and commended Obama for it. No matter what his policies or opinions, that shows he's a true man.

Lordjake, Jesus said that to the man about selling his posessions, because they meant EVERYTHING to him. It was about a test of faith. And there are ways of helping the poor without giving all your money to them. And some of those verses are out of context, and are about not being greedy.

 

 

 

I'm not saying each of those phrases are pointed towards the greedy, nor is anyone saying Obama would make the wealthy give all their money to the poor. There are plenty more references to helping the poor in the Bible, have your pick of them.

 

I was merely providing proof that the Bible is about spreading the wealth and helping the less fortunate.

 

 

 

The Bible doesn't say, that if you sow 50 seeds and you're friend sows 100 you each get 75 to be fair, that in no way is Biblical.

 

 

 

 

 

It's all about extent, then. Yes, to some extent you should donate to the poor, and help out the less fortunate, no one is denying that. What I, and many other Christians think, is that you should earn your pay, not get it handed to you.

I'm pretty disappointed in the decision of the country to vote for Obama. Don't get me wrong; I support Obama, but I only needed to watch tv for 5 minutes this morning to see why he got elected. "Finally we have a president that represents all of the population." <- I may have paraphrased, but it's pretty close to what I heard. This person makes it sound like they voted for Obama not because of his policies, but because he is black and it's only fair that a black man should get a turn to be president. In fact, he isn't even that black. He is half-black, and never even met his father, who gave him his skin color. He was raised by his white mother and (I think?) his white grandmother, so he's more white than anything.

 

 

 

It's like if I have a small percentage of Latino genes, which happened to make my skin darker. All of a sudden I'm bringing about a cultural revolution, yet I was raised white my whole life, and I see myself more white than any other race.

 

 

 

I hate to say it, but Obama subtly played the race card by saying that he is black (Okay technically his appearance is black, but his genetics tell me he is equally white.) Scratch that, it's the people that voted for Obama because he is "black" that are racist, because I bet if McCain was black and ran against Obama, he would have won no doubt.

 

 

 

In fact, a while ago I heard on the radio a survey given to black people in Brooklyn about who they were voting for, and not surprisingly, they said Obama. Now don't call me racist yet, because there is more. The people were asked questions about what they want in a president, such as their views on abortion etc. Nearly all of them displayed their views as being pro-McCain, while they said earlier they would vote for Obama. Why not vote for the guy you agree more with? Race. They obviously didn't want "more of the same," old white men.

 

 

 

Now I realize these examples may have been small samples of certain groups, but the message is clear: Thousands, if not millions, of people voted for Obama based on race alone, (or his young age or charm blah blah) without thinking about who would actually be a better leader for them. I'm glad obama has been elected in. but certainly not for these reasons.

"Finally we have a president that represents all of the population." <- I may have paraphrased

 

 

 

Not only did you paraphrase, but you misinterpreted completely. What they mean is that finally, we have a person that represents the people of America; someone that struggled and grew up on welfare and understands people. Essentially, someone of the people, for the people, and by the people.

I concur.

 

 

 

 

 

However, I've seen him give speeches, and he really isn't that great, IMO. (He came to give a speech a mile from my house) He just sounds like everyone else, so I don't know what people see in him.

Even hardened politcal commentators admit he's a pretty phenomenal public speaker. I find him completely mesmerising.

 

I hope you all tuned in to hear his concession speech after he realized Obama had won the general election. By God I have to say that was a great speech and by far the best concession speech I've had the honor of hearing. Unlike many concession speeches before his, he didn't promise to run again and get into office. Instead he spoke nothing but good about his opponent and said he would do what he could to help Obama through these hard times. After hearing him speak, I began thinking about why I hated him so much.

 

 

 

I also think McCain's level of respect, integrity and honor went through the roof with that speech, shame on the childish supporters that started booing at him when he stated his support for the next president of the United States, he had every right to say "stop booing". I couldn't find any note of sarcasm or bitterness in his speech, he genuinely accepted the result and commended Obama for it. No matter what his policies or opinions, that shows he's a true man.

 

 

 

How could forget to mention the booing? McCain gives one of the best speeches I've heard and all his supporters do is boo when Obama's name comes up. That was a shame in my opinion. They could have showed some respect considering McCain was congratulating Obama on his victory and being being a man about it. I think I may have even seen a few tears from McCain and that gave him a much more "human" appearance than I've seen from him before.

(I know its long but its good and my gov teach would be happy :thumbsup: )

 

 

 

Normaly I would have no issue with whoever wins the election, but what scares me about the next 4 years is a Democratic domination of the Executive Branch, the Legislature, and, if those 4 Conservative judges retire this year like they ment to, the Judicial Branch. There would be no checks-and-balances. Radicals are what kill this country not a specific party. If we go to far left or right our country would suck. The middle moderate ground is what is needed, but that can't happen with every branch ran by one side.

 

 

 

Obama does have faults such as the whole "Income Redistribution" (aka Socialism) and his idea of health care for everyone, but otherwise he is not that bad. The Income Redistribution gets me because the people he wants to take the wealth from are in this great Capitalist country to make thier own money. What about the poor people you may ask. All I can say is that one side of my Great-Grandparents were poor they saved up money then my grandparents did the same and they got enough money to get my mom to college. You can still do that today and make a good life for your family. For the people that don't have a job look around, to be a worker at McDonalds all you have to do is find a place to shower and they will let you work there.

 

 

 

Universal Health Care is the other thing I don't like about him. I am all for everyone getting the Medical attention they need, but Universal Health Care has some flaws. The care will be minimum maybe about 2k to 5k dollers. But the big thing that gets me is that IT WOULD KILL MEDICAL ADVANCMENT. Right now America provides the world with alot of new medical devices, cures, or insights because medical companies must compete to get a costomer on thier side with Universal Health Care they need not worry about that so why invest money on something new and just keep reaping the rewards from what you have already done. Sure it works in France and Britain but there have been little Medical advancments from those countries (not to bash anyone from there love everyone : ).

 

 

 

So sure Obama has his faults and normaly that would be balanced out by the other branches but if all of them lean to one side bad things will happen that is what is bad about the '08 election.

 

 

 

-Hernet0

I think he will a good president based on what i've heard so far.

 

 

 

I have seen articles comparing him to Hitler. Just google "Obama vs Hitler". I think that is sad tbh.

 

 

 

Obama does have faults such as the whole "Income Redistribution" (aka Socialism) and his idea of health care for everyone, but otherwise he is not that bad.

 

 

 

 

He is not a socialist, he is fundamentally a capitalist. I can't be bothered going over this again.

 

 

 

Obama does have faults such as the whole "Income Redistribution" (aka Socialism) and his idea of health care for everyone, but otherwise he is not that bad.

 

 

 

 

He is not a socialist, he is fundamentally a capitalist. I can't be bothered going over this again.

 

 

 

First I understand what you are talking about with all governments having a form of this taxation but Obama is advocating it as a very good thing in this country.

 

 

 

I am not saying he is socialist, but I am saying that Idea is the main idea of socialism. I have read the "Communist Manefesto" and that is the main reason Marx wrote it (NOTE: The "Communist Manefesto" does not talk about Communism it is the idea a Socialism what Russia did to it is Communism.). He believed that in an utopian society wealth was to be taken from the rich and distrubted among everyone so that no one was rich or poor. This redistribution of wealth is what Obama ment by his wanting to "tax the rich" and give to the poorer people of America.

For the people that don't have a job look around, to be a worker at McDonalds all you have to do is find a place to shower and they will let you work there.

 

 

 

 

There are deeper issues than just not having a job. Working 40 hrs/week at minimum wage ($7.25) you would make $1160 before taxes, social security, etc. Not too bad if you're living alone or with one other person. But my mother's medications alone cost over $1000/month not to mention 4 of us need to eat, we need a vehicle to get anywhere (we live in a semi-suburban area), and countless other expenses. Even without taxes, my family could not live off of my father working a minimum wage job. Hell, we couldn't make it if I got a job and worked the hours I could along with him. But right now the gov't is helping us out while my dad tries to find a job that we can actually live off of. Food stamps keep our stomaches full and gov't insurance makes sure my mom can get the help she needs without worrying about money in that aspect. What I'm trying to say is that it's not just a matter of finding a job. It's not worth it to give up gov't insurance and food stamps to work a job that won't bring in enough money for us to survive.

For the people that don't have a job look around, to be a worker at McDonalds all you have to do is find a place to shower and they will let you work there.

 

 

 

 

There are deeper issues than just not having a job. Working 40 hrs/week at minimum wage ($7.25) you would make $1160 before taxes, social security, etc. Not too bad if you're living alone or with one other person. But my mother's medications alone cost over $1000/month not to mention 4 of us need to eat, we need a vehicle to get anywhere (we live in a semi-suburban area), and countless other expenses. Even without taxes, my family could not live off of my father working a minimum wage job. Hell, we couldn't make it if I got a job and worked the hours I could along with him. But right now the gov't is helping us out while my dad tries to find a job that we can actually live off of. Food stamps keep our stomaches full and gov't insurance makes sure my mom can get the help she needs without worrying about money in that aspect. What I'm trying to say is that it's not just a matter of finding a job. It's not worth it to give up gov't insurance and food stamps to work a job that won't bring in enough money for us to survive.

 

 

 

I apologize you are right about that, what I ment was the people who live alone and just don't think they can get a job or just don't want it. We have a homeless guy in our neighborhood. He just does not want a job and usta think that even if he tried to get one he could not. Now someone in our neighborhood lets him use thier shower and he works at the McDonalds and now almost has enough money for a small apartment.

I don't see why people even bother complaining about Obama winning the election anymore. He won it, there's nothing you can do to change it. Just face it, even if you complain all you want, Obama is still most likely going to go through with his plans.

 

I'm pretty sure I said it back on page 6 or something, but the two speeches that Obama and McCain were both historical. Obama's was incredible, he proved he was that great speaker that 53% (?) of Americans voted for. McCain's was also great, especially for a concession speech.

but the two speeches that Obama and McCain were both historical

 

 

 

Don't they have people write their speeches or something though?

but the two speeches that Obama and McCain were both historical

 

 

 

Don't they have people write their speeches or something though?

 

Yeah, but delivery is also really important. Obama naturally has that charisma, and McCain was strong throughout his.