Independence Movements and your opinions

[RussianFed55]

For those who know something on this topic, I'd like to hear your position on certain independence movements (and divided regions) around the world.

 

 

 

We'll start with none other than...

 

 

 

Kosovo-

 

 

 

Palestine-

 

 

 

Chechnya-

 

 

 

South Ossettia-

 

 

 

Abkhasia-

 

 

 

Tibet-

 

 

 

Quebec-

 

 

 

Scotland-

 

 

 

Wales-

 

 

 

Basque Country-

 

 

 

Taiwan-

 

 

 

And finally...Belgium-

 

 

 

Other less known movements:

 

 

 

Transnistria-

 

 

 

Western Sahara-

 

 

 

Nagorno-Karabakh-

 

 

 

Crimea-

 

 

 

Jammu and Kashmir-

 

 

 

Kurdistan-

 

 

 

Here are my opinions:

 

 

 

Kosovo- I do not support the independence of Kosovo in any way.

 

 

 

Palestine- I do not support the independence of Palestine in any way. Nor its current position of having an UN ambassador.

 

 

 

Chechnya- I do not support the independence of Chechnya (or Ingushetia) in any way.

 

 

 

South Ossettia- I do not support the independence of South Ossettia, and would like to see them choose between Russia or Georgia.

 

 

 

Abkhasia- I'm very skeptical on independence, but not ruling it out. I would also like to see them choose between Russia and Georgia.

 

 

 

Tibet- I disagree with the means they took to protect their country. I wouldn't support their independence unless they grew some balls and took on China militarily.

 

 

 

Quebec- I would fully support the independence of Quebec. Although it would be weird to see Canada split in two.

 

 

 

Scotland- Perhaps, I don't know.

 

 

 

Wales- Perhaps, I don't know.

 

 

 

Basque Country- I would fully support the independence of the Basque Country.

 

 

 

Taiwan- I would fully support the independence of Taiwan.

 

 

 

And finally...Belgium and Brussels- I would like to see attempts go forward on a unified Belgium. If the country so does decide to split, I'd only support Brussels going to the Flemish.

 

 

 

Other less known movements:

 

 

 

Transnistria- I do not support the independence of Transnistria in any way.

 

 

 

Western Sahara- I really don't know, probably not, but I have no idea.

 

 

 

Nagorno-Karabakh- I support Azerbaijan in its attempts to keep the region. If I had to make another decision, then I'd like to see it as a region of Armenia, but never an independent country.

 

 

 

Crimea- I might support the independence of Crimea. I'd love to see them join Russia if it was logical.

 

 

 

Jammu and Kashmir- I support India in its attempts to keep the state, unless both India and Pakistan somehow agree on the current LOC.

 

 

 

Kurdistan- I don't see an unified Kurdish state as any possibility in the near future. And while I would like to see more autonomous stable regions like that in Northern Iraq, I would fear relations with Turkey and the PKK.

[stevepole]

So I take it your generally stance is that your against the independence of smaller nations? Generally my stance is for independence if its right for the country but I don't know enough on any of these nations to give my opinion. (I know their not all "nations" but I'm just going to call them that to make it easy.)

[Lenticular_J]

Let my people go.

 

 

 

Really, I don't care all that much. It's very removed from me. I do, however, think that if they're trying militantly, while I guess it's honorable that they're trying to defend their families and such, most of the small militant groups use terror against civilian targets. No-no.

 

 

 

However, many of the places you listed aren't exactly punching everyone in the face. I dunno.

 

 

 

I just don't know enough about those regions.

[ThurinEthir]

I'm Taiwanese. If I still lived there, and I could vote, I would definitely vote DPP. Pro-Independence. I would not support a war, though I guess as a last resort...

 

I don't really care much for the others, and I don't know enough about the situation. Of course, I've been actively following the cross-strait situation, so I have my opinion on that.

 

 

 

Oh, and by the way, I was considering making a topic about the Taiwan issue, just to see what the rest of the world sees. We had a discussion about it in history, I was a bit surprised. ;)

[1_man_army]

In principle I'm sympathetic to independence movements (no surprise when you read my location) provided that is what the majority of that area's population wants. Obviously there are practicalities involved (particularly social & ethnic issues) that make some proposed nations difficult.

 

 

 

I think there has to be some criteria laid down though;

 

 

 

Does the proposed nation have a culture that is unique and separate from the one it wishes to break away from?

 

Does it have a separate and unique history?

 

Does the population have a shared sense of identity that is separate from the nation it wants to break from?

 

Can it sustain itself independently? (Not a question of whether it will be better or worse but just whether it can survive)

 

Does the majority support independence?

 

 

 

Those are just the basics however, we could lay down page upon page arguing about what makes a nation and not fully agree but the questions above are essentials in my opinion.

 

 

 

--------------

 

 

 

As for some of your examples;

 

 

 

I fully support (and know enough about to do so knowledgeably): Taiwan, Palestine(as part of a 2 state agreed upon state - not all of the Holy land), Kosovo & Chechnya. I support greater autonomy for Tibet in the same way that the Dalai Lama does because of the difficult historical background of Tibet.

 

 

 

Other than those I either, don't know enough about the nation's circumstances, do not support their cause, have forgot to post them or have implied my opinion earlier.

[RichieMcD]

Explain to me the difference between Quebec and Tibet and why one deserves independence yet the other "needs to grow some balls"?

 

 

 

Tibet taking on the Chinese military would be equivalent to the state of Rhode Island taking on the American military, which would be [developmentally delayed]ed.

 

 

 

Scotland and Wales don't really need independence as they already do most of the running of their own countries but if the majority of the public wanted them no longer associated with England then they should be granted full rights to rule themselves.

 

 

 

I'd support the freedom of Chechnya, what the Russian soldiers have often done in there is disgusting, raping woman and female children, pillaging villages, holding family members to ransom, killing the majority who couldn't afford the ransom.

 

 

 

I'd also heavily support giving majority Catholic / Republican areas of Northern Ireland back to the Republic although you didn't mention that.

 

 

 

If a country or area is forced to become a part of a oppressing country without their consent they deserve freedom no matter what.

[Yomyth105]

Well with independence movement like these we r talking about new nations rising.... Its not like they will become like the US and prosper like we did centuries ago. I think that the government should be tolerant with the independence seekers... (such as ppl looking for religious freedoms) or they should work something out with UN too. If an agreement cannot be met then there should be an independent nation. Its pretty pointless for little nations such as Kososvo on Earth because they have no army to defend itself which is the main problem.

[Lenticular_J]

Oh, by the way, I know what should be done with Jerusalem. No more national militaries. A Swiss Guard that defends all three major faiths, instead, ruled over by a large cabinet of Jews, Muslims, and Christians.

 

 

 

I think it would really be easy to implement and widely accepted. The Swiss Guard is one of the best military forces on the planet.

[1_man_army]

Oh, by the way, I know what should be done with Jerusalem. No more national militaries. A Swiss Guard that defends all three major faiths, instead, ruled over by a large cabinet of Jews, Muslims, and Christians.

 

 

 

I think it would really be easy to implement and widely accepted. The Swiss Guard is one of the best military forces on the planet.

 

 

 

Hardliners on both sides (Muslim & Jewish) think that the land is theirs by right of God, and by that they believe it should be only their land and not for anyone else. That religious fervour is probably the biggest problem in this, it makes it more than a case of nationalism when you involve god(s). No offense but minds greater than yours (& mine) have been trying to find a workable solution to this problem for decades with no luck, I honestly don't see a peaceful solution in my lifetime.

[Quoi_Tu]

I'm not to familiar with most of these issues, but I'll address the ones I know.

 

 

 

 

Palestine- Yes. Palestine was cut up for Israel and it only makes sense that they are unhappy over it. Palestine and Israel need to learn to coexist and stop the senseless violence (and that goes for both of them).

 

 

 

Chechnya- A vague memory of them being separate from Russia(true?). I really only remember their terrorists and that one takeover of a Russian theater specifically.

 

 

 

Basque Country- I haven't seen good arguements for them to be independent and I believe the ETA hasn't been active in quite awhile. They signed a truce around the same time as the IRA, right? (maybe I'm making that up)

 

 

 

My opinion clearly in bold.

 

 

 

Sadly, I don't actively follow international news, so I wouldn't be surprised to find my opinions misguided except for Palestine.

[1_man_army]

ETA ended its ceasefire a while back (I didn't really it was so long ago though to be honest).

 

 

 

It declared a cease-fire in March 2006 that led to peace talks. But that truce ended in December 2006 when ETA detonated a car bomb that killed two people at Madrid's Barajas airport.

 

 

 

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jUVe7G-Xtm3ENayqEG4qfrm0NOPAD951VAUO0

[RichieMcD]

ETA is quite unpredictable and was never really trusted within the peace agreement, think it was more of a positive publicity stunt than anything and realised they were no closer to freedom so they reinstigated their terrorism tactic.

 

 

 

There is also talks of the Continuity IRA (CIRA) slowly rebuilding up as technically they never agreed to the Peace agreement, only the Real IRA (RIRA) and The Provisional IRA (PIRA) did.

[1_man_army]

I thought the Continuity IRA had little support in the republican communities though anyway.

[RussianFed55]

I didn't include N. Ireland because I was under the impression Ireland wanted nothing to do with it, not with violence the way it is in Belfast.

 

 

 

And I don't support the independence of Palestine and Chechnya because they will become terrorist harbouring states like Pakistan. Remember the brilliant idea to make Pakistan a country? Now we're paying for it, and we don't need anymore of these terrorist-abetting states. Also, Chechnya is full of militant terrorists, the Russian army has done deplorable things, but so have Chechen militiants. Why grant independence to states with such uncertain and militant futures?

[RichieMcD]

It's nowadays rising, during the time of the PIRA and RIRA they were of no comparison but nowadays in Republican areas of Dublin (Inner city, Ballymun, Darndale etc) you would notice a lot of "CIRA" signs". Not sure about the Northern Republicans. They have a lot of support from younger people (<30) who still feel strongly about Northern Ireland. If they stopped associating themselves with Drug dealing, extortion and kidnapping for income they'd gain much more support.

 

 

 

Palestine is harboring Islamic terrorists due to their hate for Israel and also America for assisting Israel. If America never had assisted Israel then there would be a lot less leniency for terrorists in Palestine.

 

 

 

People will obviously react like animals when they see their love ones killed, their homes and towns pillaged all by a foreign oppressing group of monsters. You could hardly expect them to sit back and "allow" it.

[RussianFed55]

Palestine is harboring Islamic terrorists due to their hate for Israel and also America for assisting Israel. If America never had assisted Israel then there would be a lot less leniency for terrorists in Palestine.

 

 

 

People will obviously react like animals when they see their love ones killed, their homes and towns pillaged all by a foreign oppressing group of monsters. You could hardly expect them to sit back and "allow" it.

 

 

 

Or you could've used the word Anti-Semitism, it may have summed up your opinion quicker. The Holy Land is as much Jewish as it is Christian as it is Muslim. America is helping their friends in Israel against regimes that want to blow them off the face of the world. Europe would do good to push away their recent anti-semitic inclinations and help their Jewish friends. Their Jewish friends have been there for Europe in tough times and in good times. The Danes know this, they saved 7000 of them. Or they did know this.

 

 

 

What America should do is stop policing Israel so much with regards to their policy and let them use those nuclear weapons in Iran. I don't think Iran will be a bully when a nuclear weapon is aimed over Tehran.

[Lenticular_J]

Oh, by the way, I know what should be done with Jerusalem. No more national militaries. A Swiss Guard that defends all three major faiths, instead, ruled over by a large cabinet of Jews, Muslims, and Christians.

 

 

 

I think it would really be easy to implement and widely accepted. The Swiss Guard is one of the best military forces on the planet.

 

 

 

Hardliners on both sides (Muslim & Jewish) think that the land is theirs by right of God, and by that they believe it should be only their land and not for anyone else. That religious fervour is probably the biggest problem in this, it makes it more than a case of nationalism when you involve god(s). No offense but minds greater than yours (& mine) have been trying to find a workable solution to this problem for decades with no luck, I honestly don't see a peaceful solution in my lifetime.

 

I dunno, I think something as simple and sweeping as that could work. I believe many Islamic and Jewish leaders would actually agree on many things - if it were presented rapidly enough that they couldn't use mutual hatred to change their opinions. A Jerusalem protected and united by the things tearing it apart would certainly be beneficial to stability in the entire middle east.

 

 

 

Although it wouldn't be difficult to break it down.

[1_man_army]

RussianFed, that's a simplistic argument. Palestinian anti-semitism is as much a reaction against their forced removal from their land by Israel and their continued occupation. If somebody is doing things like this to you it is only natural it will create resentment.

 

 

 

The Palestinians have as much right as anyone to live there, they have a legitimate grievance. Now, does that mean I support suicide bombing? No. Nor, do I support any deliberate attacks on civilians. Racism isn't just felt by Israeli's in this remember, there have been attacks on both sides the only difference is that only one side in this dispute has a proper military.

 

 

 

As for using the Holocaust as emotional blackmail in helping Israel regardless of their actions, that might have worked in the past but it doesn't fly now. The Holocaust was a horrid crime but it does not excuse Israel's crimes against the people of Palestine. I do sympathise with Israel as it is surrounded by hostile nations, I agree that they have a right to a homeland and a right to exist as a nation but that can't be achieved at anothers expense.

 

 

 

The only way forward in this conflict is a 2 state resolution that creates a clear and agreed upon division of land (with borders) between Israel and Palestine, the return of disputed territory (such as the Golan Heights) and some way of sharing Jerusalem. Will this happen? Probably not, there are too many fundamentalists and hardliners on both sides but there is always hope.

[Ginger_Warrior]

What America should do is stop policing Israel so much with regards to their policy and let them use those nuclear weapons in Iran. I don't think Iran will be a bully when a nuclear weapon is aimed over Tehran.

 

That would be the same Iran that we're told is conducting nuclear tests to build a nuclear arsenal of its own?

 

 

 

Two nuclear powers aiming missiles at each other's heads, both feeling they have a divine right to do whatever they want to gain the promised land and God will reward them for it when they die, so what have they got to lose by using them anyway?

 

 

 

Sounds like a genius solution. Where do I (not) sign?

 

 

 

In regards to Palestine, added to that the fundamental issue that the land was Palestine's until Israel decided to displace the people from their land. How would you like the Russian Army to just march into your land, tell you they now own it, tell you they're going to implant hundreds of their own settlers into the region, and you have to move hundreds of miles away to rebuild your life with others who are stuck in the same dilemma? I can't imagine you'd be wishing, "Oh, if only Russia aimed a nuke at us instead" then.

 

 

 

I'm all for children learning about the despicable actions of the Nazi regime in regards to mass genocide, but that does not mean we owe the Jews any more than we owe the gays, socialists, black people or disabled, all of whom were also persecuted for the Volksgemeinschaft. After all, the first opponents of the regime were political, not religious/racial. When you consider Israel has one the most blatantly racist constitutions of all time, I really don't see what I have to owe them.

 

 

 

Nor does that make me an anti-Semite.

[eggzs]

tbh being invaded by the Chinese was the best thing that's happened to Tibet for the last five hundred years. Sure, you get shot for dissenting, that sucks, but compared to the "enlightened" rule of the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan nobles, the Chinese are great. They actually let the peasants own stuff and get educated, unlike the horrendously repressive theocracy that the Chinese freed the Tibetans from that everyone thinks is awesome because us Westerners never quite got over all that hippy [cabbage] the Beatles started feeding us.

[RichieMcD]

Palestine is harboring Islamic terrorists due to their hate for Israel and also America for assisting Israel. If America never had assisted Israel then there would be a lot less leniency for terrorists in Palestine.

 

 

 

People will obviously react like animals when they see their love ones killed, their homes and towns pillaged all by a foreign oppressing group of monsters. You could hardly expect them to sit back and "allow" it.

 

 

 

Or you could've used the word Anti-Semitism, it may have summed up your opinion quicker. The Holy Land is as much Jewish as it is Christian as it is Muslim. America is helping their friends in Israel against regimes that want to blow them off the face of the world. Europe would do good to push away their recent anti-semitic inclinations and help their Jewish friends. Their Jewish friends have been there for Europe in tough times and in good times. The Danes know this, they saved 7000 of them. Or they did know this.

 

 

 

What America should do is stop policing Israel so much with regards to their policy and let them use those nuclear weapons in Iran. I don't think Iran will be a bully when a nuclear weapon is aimed over Tehran.

 

 

 

Are you actually condoning the use of Nuclear Warfare, when it's very obvious the full scale effect of what happens? If one Israeli WMD was fired at Iran every Islamic country within firing range which possesses Nuclear WMB would fire, Israel would be obliterated.

 

 

 

Where did you get the opinion I'm anti-semitic? I haven't once yet said I disagreed with the formation of Israel nor did I ever mention any anti-semitic views.

 

 

 

If we "owe" the Jewish people for the Holocaust, then I suppose we should start offering the land to the blacks for taking millions of them from their homes to work as slaves, or we should offer homosexuals something after facing years of persecution.

 

 

 

The holocaust was disgusting, doesn't mean in any way though they have the right to pre-owned land simply because their bible says so.

[ThurinEthir]

[hide=]

Oh, by the way, I know what should be done with Jerusalem. No more national militaries. A Swiss Guard that defends all three major faiths, instead, ruled over by a large cabinet of Jews, Muslims, and Christians.

 

 

 

I think it would really be easy to implement and widely accepted. The Swiss Guard is one of the best military forces on the planet.

 

 

 

Hardliners on both sides (Muslim & Jewish) think that the land is theirs by right of God, and by that they believe it should be only their land and not for anyone else. That religious fervour is probably the biggest problem in this, it makes it more than a case of nationalism when you involve god(s). No offense but minds greater than yours (& mine) have been trying to find a workable solution to this problem for decades with no luck, I honestly don't see a peaceful solution in my lifetime.

 

I dunno, I think something as simple and sweeping as that could work. I believe many Islamic and Jewish leaders would actually agree on many things - if it were presented rapidly enough that they couldn't use mutual hatred to change their opinions. A Jerusalem protected and united by the things tearing it apart would certainly be beneficial to stability in the entire middle east.

 

 

 

Although it wouldn't be difficult to break it down.

[/hide]

 

 

 

You know, in the Qur'an, apparently it says "Do not argue with the followers of earlier revelation otherwise than in a most kindly manner - unless it be such of them as are bent on evil-doing - and say: 'We believe in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, as well as that which has been bestowed upon you; for our God and your God is one and the same.'"

 

The Jewish God, the Christian God, the Islamic God - All the same. Too bad this is such an uncommonly known fact.

[Lenticular_J]

Yeah, it does more or less a number of times. It was one of Muhammed's main ideals. He strongly discouraged the jihad that followed his death. Although if it didn't happen, Islam would have likely lived a life of no more than a few generations.

[Will H]

Only one that I know enough about to make a comment on is Scotland and Wales, and for that one I see no need for their independence. They are almost governed separately anyway, it's just that the government needs to sort itself out and stop giving reasons for the pro-Independence movement to campaign about. I think it's a good incentive system.

[assassin_696]

I wholeheartedly agree with 1_man_army's views on Israel/Palestine. I don't particularly have an opinion on the other movements because I don't know enough about them.