Intelligent dinosaurs

[Danqazmlp]

I couldn't think of a short title to get this across so you have some reading.

 

 

 

Last night while trying to get to sleep, i rememberd seeing on tv about how humans had only recently come about, and in the grand scale of evolution, we play a tiny, minescule part, and if it wasn't for all our buildings and thing we've made, there wouldn't be much trace of us at all, which got me thinking, in my sleep deprived state, if we as a race, in the next thousand or so years manage to wipe ourselves out (if you look how fast technology moves, we should have something capable of it in less than a thousand years), and if said thing managed to destroy everything man made, would any intelligent life that managed to evolve in another 20+ million years ever know humans exited?

 

 

 

And to that case, what if a super intelligent race of dinosaurs had evolved and grown an intelligent civilisation in the last few hundred thousand years of that era, and had managed to wipe themselves out in the same fashion, would we ever know?

 

 

 

To that, there could have been countless intelligent lifeforms on this planet before us, and there could be many after, technology could just move so fast once a race grows enough that it stops it ever leaving a big enough mark :|

 

 

 

But yeah this was all a sleep deprived thought though, and is probably just crazy.[*]

[The Dark Lord]

This reminds me of that Dinotopia movie.

[Zierro]

Chances are that at least one thing would be able to survive to be later discovered. But then again this is coming from a very limited human mind. :P

[mmmcannibalism]

idea of a superintelligent race is almost impossible; however, the idea that there were fairly smart dinosaurs is interesting even if it is probably disproven through brain studies.

 

 

 

One key thing to consider is that humanoids have a very good body for developing technology, give a single mosquito the brain of the smartest human ever and its not going to accomplish much. Same type of thing with dinosaurs, sure they could make eating a little better but without opposable thumbs (or something otherwise useful) they would still be limited.

[Zierro]

idea of a superintelligent race is almost impossible

 

 

 

What makes you think that? Or did you just mean in this context specifically (on earth before mankind)?

[mmmcannibalism]

idea of a superintelligent race is almost impossible

 

 

 

What makes you think that? Or did you just mean in this context specifically (on earth before mankind)?

 

 

 

just in the context of it having been a race of superintelligent beings around with the dinosaurs

[Giordano]

Our wooden and metal things will go away, but never our plastics! \

[The Dark Lord]

This is how the human race will end:

 

 

 

[Lenticular_J]

Mos def. I think it's impossible that dinosaurs were around millions of years and didn't become more intelligent than us. It's my own personal theory that a rogue group of T. Rex terrorists fled the planet and hurtled asteroids at their infidel brethren (theory is the same thing as fantasy, right?).

 

 

 

Anyways. Since nobody really thinks a whole lot came before dinosaurs, they probably didn't have a whole lot in the way of petroleum. Thus, not as many petroleum products. Thus, no plastics left for us to find.

 

 

 

The whole "DINOSAURS HAD PEANUT BRAINS LOL" thing was disproven long ago. Some of the larger dinosaurs very well may have had brains similar to the size of our own. I just think it's impossible, given how long they were around, that they didn't evolve to a level of using some sort of dinosaur tools and communities.

 

 

 

I've always thought about this, and how strange it is that there's next to no research or anything related to it (that I've found, anyways). Certainly an interesting thought. I mean, we had a helping hand with our thumbs and quite an abundance of resources, but dinosaurs had more time and plausibly even more food.

[Lateralus]

The whole "DINOSAURS HAD PEANUT BRAINS LOL" thing was disproven long ago. Some of the larger dinosaurs very well may have had brains similar to the size of our own. I just think it's impossible, given how long they were around, that they didn't evolve to a level of using some sort of dinosaur tools and communities.

 

 

 

I've always thought about this, and how strange it is that there's next to no research or anything related to it (that I've found, anyways). Certainly an interesting thought. I mean, we had a helping hand with our thumbs and quite an abundance of resources, but dinosaurs had more time and plausibly even more food.

 

 

 

I think I remember mentioning the Encephalization Quotient to you the last time you brought this up. Obviously whale and elephant brains are larger that human brains, but that doesn't make them more intelligent. Brain to body mass ratio is a better indication of intelligence than brain size alone (I listed a few examples for dinosaurs last time I posted this, can't be bothered now).

 

 

 

Why is it surprising that dinosaurs were never as intelligent as we are now? Evolution doesn't tend towards intelligence, it tends towards fitness for survival. Are you surprised that crocodiles or sharks or any other ancient species don't use tools, given the time they've had to evolve?

[Stilev]

intelligence is about being able to make tools, and be able to communicate how the tool was made and other concepts. without these two things, intelligence is not going to happen. Without thumbs, your probably not making tools, that's how we know they aren't intelligent. with fossil remains, we can see that there haven't been any species with thumbs that aren't our ancienter, or cousin species

[Danqazmlp]

intelligence is about being able to make tools, and be able to communicate how the tool was made and other concepts. without these two things, intelligence is not going to happen. Without thumbs, your probably not making tools, that's how we know they aren't intelligent. with fossil remains, we can see that there haven't been any species with thumbs that aren't our ancienter, or cousin species

 

 

 

I' don't know much in the area, but im sure not everything becomes fossilised right, for example, we dont conclusively know every species that ever existed, maybe an offshoot of the raptors (most intelligent dinosaur i know of but thats only from films) grew hands with thumb-like parts somehow.

[Lenticular_J]

I think I remember mentioning the Encephalization Quotient to you the last time you brought this up. Obviously whale and elephant brains are larger that human brains, but that doesn't make them more intelligent. Brain to body mass ratio is a better indication of intelligence than brain size alone (I listed a few examples for dinosaurs last time I posted this, can't be bothered now).

 

 

 

Why is it surprising that dinosaurs were never as intelligent as we are now? Evolution doesn't tend towards intelligence, it tends towards fitness for survival. Are you surprised that crocodiles or sharks or any other ancient species don't use tools, given the time they've had to evolve?

 

I only brought up brain sizes in case someone else brought up the old belief that dinosaurs had tiny brains. Of course, that's not to say you're not right. Much of my thought towards intelligent dinosaurs is simply my fanciful romanticizing of the T REX RAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH. I still think that dinosaurs were at least more intelligent than we give them credit for. Through my very limited research of others' research, I definitely see many species as having had tight family and community groups.

 

 

 

At the very least, I can see them acting more intelligently than we give them credit for. Chimpanzees maybe? Lions? No idea how I would compare. At most, I could see them being some sort of super-intelligent beings.

 

 

 

As for evolution being survival for the fittest, that may be the final product, but since many consider the journey to be the beautiful part, so do I. A lot of stuff that evolution has vomited up has just made evolution look like a drunken college guy who has to do an art project. And that's petty darn neato.

[warri0r45]

intelligence is about being able to make tools, and be able to communicate how the tool was made and other concepts. without these two things, intelligence is not going to happen. Without thumbs, your probably not making tools, that's how we know they aren't intelligent. with fossil remains, we can see that there haven't been any species with thumbs that aren't our ancienter, or cousin species

 

 

 

I' don't know much in the area, but im sure not everything becomes fossilised right, for example, we dont conclusively know every species that ever existed, maybe an offshoot of the raptors (most intelligent dinosaur i know of but thats only from films) grew hands with thumb-like parts somehow.

 

 

 

That's a massive stretch, and it's not founded on anything.

 

 

 

As far as intelligent dinosaurs goes, I agree with Stilev. They didn't have the morphology to be able to manipulate the environment like we can, and I'd say that's a necessary precursor to intelligence. Tool use first, writing second, then comes intelligence (in the context of the human experience).

[Zierro]

Tool use first, writing second, then comes intelligence

 

 

 

I agree that tool use was the initial step, but I would think intelligence comes before writing. Language is too much of an intricate system for anything lacking intelligence to master.

[warri0r45]

Tool use first, writing second, then comes intelligence

 

 

 

I agree that tool use was the initial step, but I would think intelligence comes before writing. Language is too much of an intricate system for anything lacking intelligence to master.

 

 

 

I probably wasn't specific enough. By "in the context of the human experience" I meant the intelligence to build cities and cure diseases, etc. The kind of "super intelligence" the OP talked about.

 

 

 

On some level it takes intelligence to use tools, too.

[Zierro]

Oh I thought by "the human experience" you meant at the point of our intelligence which surpasses that of an animal's, separating the "man" and "animal". You're right about that. Although, I think tool use derives more from instinct rather than intelligence - monkeys do it too and beavers kind of do depending on if you consider dams a tool. Many creatures are known for manipulating their environment.

[Zierro]

I hereby report myself for double-posting. I am sorry. :( Bad connection.

[Lateralus]

Tool use first, writing second, then comes intelligence

 

 

 

I agree that tool use was the initial step, but I would think intelligence comes before writing. Language is too much of an intricate system for anything lacking intelligence to master.

 

 

 

I probably wasn't specific enough. By "in the context of the human experience" I meant the intelligence to build cities and cure diseases, etc. The kind of "super intelligence" the OP talked about.

 

 

 

On some level it takes intelligence to use tools, too.

 

 

 

Language really is something special. Homosapien can't have changed much physically in the 150,000 or so years it's been around, but in the even shorter amount of time we've had advanced communication things have changed at a frantic pace.

[Stilev]

Tool use first, writing second, then comes intelligence

 

 

 

I agree that tool use was the initial step, but I would think intelligence comes before writing. Language is too much of an intricate system for anything lacking intelligence to master.

 

 

 

I probably wasn't specific enough. By "in the context of the human experience" I meant the intelligence to build cities and cure diseases, etc. The kind of "super intelligence" the OP talked about.

 

 

 

On some level it takes intelligence to use tools, too.

 

 

 

Language really is something special. Homosapien can't have changed much physically in the 150,000 or so years it's been around, but in the even shorter amount of time we've had advanced communication things have changed at a frantic pace.

 

 

 

as i said before, what defines intelligence, is the complexity of tools, and the ability to communicate. it really doesn't matter if you can do calculus, if you cant communicate your ideas, its rather pointless. our spoken language was a vital component coupled with our ability to make tools. and look at the three times in our past where our communication has increases dramatically as our level of tool making also greatly increased

 

 

 

1. written language

 

2. printed press

 

3. mass media (radio, tv, internet)

[i_love_burritos]

Was this on the history channel ?

 

 

 

OT: I can't really find any good input to add to this...

 

 

 

What about our bones ?

 

 

 

They would remain right ?

 

 

 

Even in some apocalyptic situation ?

[Perakp]

I believe ants are fairly intelligent. They have been around for ~150 million years.

[Stilev]

I believe ants are fairly intelligent. They have been around for ~150 million years.

 

 

 

intelligence does not equal survivability, humans are the most intelligent species, and we are also one the youngest

[deathdrow]

I believe ants are fairly intelligent. They have been around for ~150 million years.

 

 

 

intelligence does not equal survivability, humans are the most intelligent species, and we are also one the youngest

 

We can't prove that we're the smartest, there could be species we don't even know about, that live on the bottom of the ocean, or underground. W we can't properly judge intelligence of other animals, because they could be much much smarter than us and we don't even know it. Humans cannot properly judge how intelligent something is, because we don't fully know what intelligence is, we have our sense of intelligence, but there could be other types of intelligence that we aren't capable of comprehending, or using.

 

 

 

try to understand that, It's late, I can't type well.

[Zimbu]

if we as a race, in the next thousand or so years manage to wipe ourselves out (if you look how fast technology moves, we should have something capable of it in less than a thousand years), and if said thing managed to destroy everything man made, would any intelligent life that managed to evolve in another 20+ million years ever know humans exited?

 

Humans would leave behind a very large amount of bones compared to the resources usually available in nature, an extremely fast mass extinction of other species and heightened CO2 levels (polar ice drilling studies can show this). Intelligent life would be able to conclude that we had highly efficient agricultural methods and had a large impact on nature. I'm not sure about some things like the use of platinum or diamonds and if a sufficiently intelligent species could notice that the deposits of those aren't arreanged in a natural way as a result of that use. I'm also unsure on how long space garbage can stay on orbit. If either space garbage or platinum artefacts such as large coins can survive over an evolutionary timescale, then an intelligent species can also conlude that we had written language.

 

 

 

Plastics will mostly undergo chemical decomposition in an evolutionary timescale (20+M years in OP). If some survived, then the intelligent species could carbon date it to find out that we made it. I don't think it's probable that some writing on a piece of plastic would still be readable after 20+M years.

 

http://mdc.mo.gov/nomoretrash/facts/

 

 

 

We can't prove that we're the smartest, there could be species we don't even know about, that live on the bottom of the ocean, or underground. W we can't properly judge intelligence of other animals, because they could be much much smarter than us and we don't even know it. Humans cannot properly judge how intelligent something is, because we don't fully know what intelligence is, we have our sense of intelligence, but there could be other types of intelligence that we aren't capable of comprehending, or using.

 

 

 

try to understand that, It's late, I can't type well.

 

If there were species that were much more intelligent than humans living on the bottom of the ocean or underground, then it would seem probable that it would reasearch its surroundings which would lead it to contact with us. It's not impossible though, but I would see it as very improbable that such a species existed.

 

 

 

While it is true that there are many definitions to intelligence, it is usually the case that when talking about different species, intelligence is the same as the ability to solve problems through the use of logic. Yeah, I probably didn't understand what you're saying. Prehaps something like telepathy? In that case I think it's improbable that a species could have evolved so far without leaving traces of its evolution like we do.