Torture

[Zygimantas]

The hell?

 

 

 

If you are implying that you are actually talking about both, then you are dead wrong.

 

 

 

Justice is for both sides, revenge is just self satisfaction.

If the family of a victim is given a bit of a choice on what they want to do with the prisoner, then it might be revenge. But it would Justice as well.

 

 

 

Yeah because families of victims have a fair and impartial opinion in this circumstance :roll: (smilie used to ensure that sarcasm is detected).

 

 

 

Your plan is moronic and barbaric and would drag the legal system back into the dark ages. The legal system is there to remove people who break the law from wider society not to beat them. Your plans would anger people and create greater problems for the future as people are increasingly alienated by them.

Good point. Finally, someone gave me a good reason why I'm wrong. Its what I was waiting for all along, Kudos :

[sohkmj1]

Whoa, that's cruel.

 

These people are just doing what the book tells them to do blindly.

 

I've read somewhere that kids brought up there today are made to accept Osama as a kind of a hero and treat everything the westerns report as rubbish propaganda. In a way, it's not their fault their Qu'ran was so badly interpreted.

 

 

 

Anyways, torture is barbaric. If you torture them you're not really better than any of those terrorists. Why waste time torturing 1 person when you could be busy hunting down more?

[Bloodstain]

The hell?

 

 

 

If you are implying that you are actually talking about both, then you are dead wrong.

 

 

 

Justice is for both sides, revenge is just self satisfaction.

If the family of a victim is given a bit of a choice on what they want to do with the prisoner, then it might be revenge. But it would Justice as well.

 

 

 

Yeah because families of victims have a fair and impartial opinion in this circumstance :roll: (smilie used to ensure that sarcasm is detected).

 

 

 

Your plan is moronic and barbaric and would drag the legal system back into the dark ages. The legal system is there to remove people who break the law from wider society not to beat them. Your plans would anger people and create greater problems for the future as people are increasingly alienated by them.

Good point. Finally, someone gave me a good reason why I'm wrong. Its what I was waiting for all along, Kudos :

 

 

 

Can we please just ignore this [developmentally delayed]?

 

 

 

Edit: wow, lots of censors

[Robert_de_Sable]

Whoa, that's cruel.

 

These people are just doing what the book tells them to do blindly.

 

I've read somewhere that kids brought up there today are made to accept Osama as a kind of a hero and treat everything the westerns report as rubbish propaganda. In a way, it's not their fault their Qu'ran was so badly interpreted.

 

 

 

Anyways, torture is barbaric. If you torture them you're not really better than any of those terrorists. Why waste time torturing 1 person when you could be busy hunting down more?

 

You interpret the world much like a Disney character might.

[i_love_burritos]

Guys. Just to clarify.

 

 

 

I was commenting on the mental state of these people. Not advocating the use of torture of any kind.

 

 

 

Read my previous posts. ;)

[Zierro]

Whoa, that's cruel.

 

These people are just doing what the book tells them to do blindly.

 

I've read somewhere that kids brought up there today are made to accept Osama as a kind of a hero and treat everything the westerns report as rubbish propaganda. In a way, it's not their fault their Qu'ran was so badly interpreted.

 

 

 

Anyways, torture is barbaric. If you torture them you're not really better than any of those terrorists. Why waste time torturing 1 person when you could be busy hunting down more?

 

You interpret the world much like a Disney character might.

 

 

 

Are you calling him Cruella de Ville?

[Robert_de_Sable]

Of course. :roll:

[ScreamTheCore]

Wrong. The information they give up won't be worth anything anyway, and a truly dedicated person can hold out if they must. (Eg fanatical Taliban freedom fighters).

[Kiriyama]

Wrong. The information they give up won't be worth anything anyway, and a truly dedicated person can hold out if they must. (Eg fanatical Taliban freedom fighters).

 

 

 

Its not as much as witholding information, its the false confessions people make to make it stop.

 

 

 

I.E.

 

 

 

"Are you a terrorist?"

 

"No"

 

*torture*

 

[here it happens again, and again until the person just says yes to makeit stop]

 

 

 

Under the worst circumstances, anyone will do anything to make it stop.

[mmmcannibalism]

Wrong. The information they give up won't be worth anything anyway, and a truly dedicated person can hold out if they must. (Eg fanatical Taliban freedom fighters).

 

 

 

Its not as much as witholding information, its the false confessions people make to make it stop.

 

 

 

I.E.

 

 

 

"Are you a terrorist?"

 

"No"

 

*torture*

 

[here it happens again, and again until the person just says yes to makeit stop]

 

 

 

Under the worst circumstances, anyone will do anything to make it stop.

 

 

 

because clearly, we are going to be torturing people we picked up off the street and making them admit to being terrorists; not trying to get legitimate information off of persons we can be certain were higher ups in a terrorist organization.

[Kiriyama]

They've been mistaken before, so torture is not a viable means of gathering good information. You'll accept what you want to hear.

[EdgedThesis]

Using pain is so crude.

 

Brain scans and associative tests using pictures and ideas as well as fragments of speech--that's something I can get behind.

 

Would yield quite a lot of truth, unless you were dealing with a Buddhist monk who has supreme control over his feelings.

 

 

 

Hell, once we figure out the connection between memories and dreams we can just intercept visual signals in the brain and display a person's life on screen--all while he or she sleeps.

 

Right now all the visions created by the minds eye and harnessed by our devices are in 8-bit, though.

 

 

 

We'll get there.

 

 

 

Something tells me you will all fear the thought police more than these primitive torturers though.

 

Sometimes sophistication that can target you is a great deal more frightening than barbarism that harms others.

[mmmcannibalism]

Using pain is so crude.

 

Brain scans and associative tests using pictures and ideas as well as fragments of speech--that's something I can get behind.

 

Would yield quite a lot of truth, unless you were dealing with a Buddhist monk who has supreme control over his feelings.

 

 

 

Hell, once we figure out the connection between memories and dreams we can just intercept visual signals in the brain and display a person's life on screen--all while he or she sleeps.

 

Right now all the visions created by the minds eye and harnessed by our devices are in 8-bit, though.

 

 

 

We'll get there.

 

 

 

Something tells me you will all fear the thought police more than these primitive torturers though.

 

Sometimes sophistication that can target you is a great deal more frightening than barbarism that harms others.

 

 

 

That would be its own very interesting matter, 5th amendment and related laws would get a whole new meaning.

[Mb1911]

I'm sure you're referring to the torture technique of waterboarding, if it was mentioned in an earlier post, I'm sorry. The waterboarding that the United States partakes in is very different from that of which the Japanese first introduced. The United States ensure there are medical professionals on site as well as other more advanced techniques to waterboarding to ensure less physical harm. There was also a case of "torture" reported that took place in Guantanamo Bay where we learned that the mastermind of September 11, 2001, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, has a fear of bugs. A caterpillar was placed in his room while he slept and he was aware it was there. Do you consider that as torture because the people screaming for prosecution against people that partake in the method of waterboarding believe it is.

 

 

 

I saw on the first page someone said you'd have to ask John McCain. John McCain does not believe the United States should torture because he himself has been tortured and he believes it is the only thing that separates us from the terrorists.

[Kiriyama]

I saw on the first page someone said you'd have to ask John McCain. John McCain does not believe the United States should torture because he himself has been tortured and he believes it is the only thing that separates us from the terrorists.

 

 

 

He's got a point though.

[mmmcannibalism]

I saw on the first page someone said you'd have to ask John McCain. John McCain does not believe the United States should torture because he himself has been tortured and he believes it is the only thing that separates us from the terrorists.

 

 

 

He's got a point though.

 

 

 

Indeed; however, that still keeps us at trying to define torture properly. Waterboarding is very borderline, but I think we can agree there are much worse options.

[Bloodstain]

I'm sure you're referring to the torture technique of waterboarding, if it was mentioned in an earlier post, I'm sorry. The waterboarding that the United States partakes in is very different from that of which the Japanese first introduced. The United States ensure there are medical professionals on site as well as other more advanced techniques to waterboarding to ensure less physical harm. There was also a case of "torture" reported that took place in Guantanamo Bay where we learned that the mastermind of September 11, 2001, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, has a fear of bugs. A caterpillar was placed in his room while he slept and he was aware it was there. Do you consider that as torture because the people screaming for prosecution against people that partake in the method of waterboarding believe it is.

 

 

 

I saw on the first page someone said you'd have to ask John McCain. John McCain does not believe the United States should torture because he himself has been tortured and he believes it is the only thing that separates us from the terrorists.

 

 

 

The psychological harm is way worse than the physical.

 

 

 

 

 

^and drowning someone and then stopping it at the last second is borderline?!

 

 

 

I don't know how many of you checked the link when it was posted but

 

 

 

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/feature...ens_video200808

 

 

 

Just thought I'd post this link, it's of a journalist volunteering to get water boarded to see what it's like. He doesn't last long at all and now has nightmares among other things related to it after just a few seconds of waterboarding. Imagine being water boarded literally hundreds of times with no safe words or precautions

[Mb1911]

I'm sure you're referring to the torture technique of waterboarding, if it was mentioned in an earlier post, I'm sorry. The waterboarding that the United States partakes in is very different from that of which the Japanese first introduced. The United States ensure there are medical professionals on site as well as other more advanced techniques to waterboarding to ensure less physical harm. There was also a case of "torture" reported that took place in Guantanamo Bay where we learned that the mastermind of September 11, 2001, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, has a fear of bugs. A caterpillar was placed in his room while he slept and he was aware it was there. Do you consider that as torture because the people screaming for prosecution against people that partake in the method of waterboarding believe it is.

 

 

 

I saw on the first page someone said you'd have to ask John McCain. John McCain does not believe the United States should torture because he himself has been tortured and he believes it is the only thing that separates us from the terrorists.

 

 

 

The psychological harm is way worse than the physical.

 

 

 

 

 

^and drowning someone and then stopping it at the last second is borderline?!

 

 

 

You're right because we wouldn't want to mentally harm the terrorists responsible for killing thousands of Americans. And if you think they are innocent, do you think they were just dropped into battle with a gun and they had no intention of killing anyone?

[Bloodstain]

I'm sure you're referring to the torture technique of waterboarding, if it was mentioned in an earlier post, I'm sorry. The waterboarding that the United States partakes in is very different from that of which the Japanese first introduced. The United States ensure there are medical professionals on site as well as other more advanced techniques to waterboarding to ensure less physical harm. There was also a case of "torture" reported that took place in Guantanamo Bay where we learned that the mastermind of September 11, 2001, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, has a fear of bugs. A caterpillar was placed in his room while he slept and he was aware it was there. Do you consider that as torture because the people screaming for prosecution against people that partake in the method of waterboarding believe it is.

 

 

 

I saw on the first page someone said you'd have to ask John McCain. John McCain does not believe the United States should torture because he himself has been tortured and he believes it is the only thing that separates us from the terrorists.

 

 

 

The psychological harm is way worse than the physical.

 

 

 

 

 

^and drowning someone and then stopping it at the last second is borderline?!

 

 

 

You're right because we wouldn't want to mentally harm the terrorists responsible for killing thousands of Americans. And if you think they are innocent, do you think they were just dropped into battle with a gun and they had no intention of killing anyone?

 

 

 

Have you not read the thread? NONE of these "terrorists" have had trials. The USA offered REWARDS to turn in "terrorists". And of course they're going to be fighting USA, USA is invading THEIR country. All you're doing is rationalizing torture as an Al Qaida would

[mmmcannibalism]

nk[hide=]

I'm sure you're referring to the torture technique of waterboarding, if it was mentioned in an earlier post, I'm sorry. The waterboarding that the United States partakes in is very different from that of which the Japanese first introduced. The United States ensure there are medical professionals on site as well as other more advanced techniques to waterboarding to ensure less physical harm. There was also a case of "torture" reported that took place in Guantanamo Bay where we learned that the mastermind of September 11, 2001, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, has a fear of bugs. A caterpillar was placed in his room while he slept and he was aware it was there. Do you consider that as torture because the people screaming for prosecution against people that partake in the method of waterboarding believe it is.

 

 

 

I saw on the first page someone said you'd have to ask John McCain. John McCain does not believe the United States should torture because he himself has been tortured and he believes it is the only thing that separates us from the terrorists.

 

 

 

The psychological harm is way worse than the physical.

 

 

 

 

 

^and drowning someone and then stopping it at the last second is borderline?!

 

 

 

You're right because we wouldn't want to mentally harm the terrorists responsible for killing thousands of Americans. And if you think they are innocent, do you think they were just dropped into battle with a gun and they had no intention of killing anyone?

 

 

 

Have you not read the thread? NONE of these "terrorists" have had trials. The USA offered REWARDS to turn in "terrorists". And of course they're going to be fighting USA, USA is invading THEIR country. All you're doing is rationalizing torture as an Al Qaida would

[/hide]

 

 

 

Im starting to think you believe we water board everyone at every chance we get, but yes there are some serious problems in the afganistan situation.

 

 

 

edit--yes waterboarding is borderline, especially considering anyone can think of dozens of more brutal ways to interrogate someone; at least waterboarding attempts to avoid permaenent harm.

[Bloodstain]

1 a: anguish of body or mind : agony b: something that causes agony or pain

 

 

 

of body or mind. I don't think you realize how much water boarding can [bleep] someone up, and you're justification for it being borderline is that there are worse. Awesome logic there.

 

 

 

Now, my question still stands. Anyone care to link me to ANY empirical evidence that torture works when other methods do not?

 

 

 

Until then I'm done with all the morons in this topic

[Mb1911]

Bloodstain, we don't just accept any Muslim from Iraq. We know that those held at Gitmo are terrorists, but we have not done a full trial for them. If we were to do a full trial we would just come to the conclusion that legally they are terrorists, which we already know. We did not just offer money to bring us Muslim people from Iraq.

 

 

 

As requested by Bloodstain ^ :

 

http://www.cnsnews.com/Public/Content/A ... rcid=46949

[Bloodstain]

Bloodstain, we don't just accept any Muslim from Iraq. We know that those held at Gitmo are terrorists, but we have not done a full trial for them. If we were to do a full trial we would just come to the conclusion that legally they are terrorists, which we already know. We did not just offer money to bring us Muslim people from Iraq.

 

 

 

As requested by Bloodstain ^ :

 

http://www.cnsnews.com/Public/Content/A ... rcid=46949

 

 

 

A news story where their source is the CIA is not empirical and you cannot know if they are guilty unless they have a trial. And lol at if we took them to a full trial blah blah blah

 

 

 

Oh, and it sure isn't that bad hunh?

 

 

During waterboarding, some of this water can flow through the nostrils and into the lungs, Keller explains. Water in the lungs, especially if it's dirty, can cause potentially deadly pneumonia or pleuritis, an inflammation of the lung lining.

 

 

 

Waterboarding could also cause hypoxia, a condition in which the body is not getting enough oxygen, either because the victim is holding his or her breath or inhaling water -- and inadequate oxygen supplies can lead to deadly organ failure, Keller adds.

 

 

 

But don't underestimate how tightly intertwined the physical and psychological experiences of waterboarding are, Keller notes. Since it mimics the terrifying sensation of drowning, it triggers the release of stress hormones called catecholamines that can cause heart rate and blood pressure to soar, potentially setting the stage for heart attack in a person with underlying heart disease, he says.

 

 

 

But even healthy people can die from sheer terror, as Martin A. Samuels, chairman of the neurology department at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston told ScientificAmerican.com earlier this year. The sudden outpouring of stress hormones can cause the heart to beat abnormally, hampering its ability to deliver blood to the body.

 

 

 

Waterboarding might be an ideal way to cause a fear-induced heart problem, Samuels speculates, pointing to experiments by the late Johns Hopkins psychobiologist Curt Richter, who in the 1950s created what he called a "swimming" jar for wild rats that was partially filled with water, allowing them to swim but not escape. The rats often died, and when Richter examined their hearts, he found damage suggesting stress hormones caused heart muscle cells to contract uncontrollably, Samuels explains.

 

 

 

"Make no mistake about it, [waterboarding] is a profoundly traumatic event," Keller says. "The physical and psychological and social aspects are all interdependent and feed off one another."

 

 

 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/ ... 2009-05-01

 

 

 

From a scientific journal.

 

 

 

Anyway, last post

[Mb1911]

Even though that was you're last post, you're saying you'd like to try the the people in the CIA? You said we would not know if they were guilty unless we had a trial. You'd like to try and prosecute the brave people of the CIA who have been working to keep you safe?! And if you believe they are guilty and what they say is a lie, you should have no trust in the American government at all.

 

 

 

Regarding you're "scientific journal," as i stated in my first post on this issue, that was the original way the Japanese introduced waterboarding, using dirty water, etc., but now we have medical professionals on site and we do not use that dirty water. Why would we kill someone who might have information for us?

[Kiriyama]

The point is, its just not dirty water that can cause those.

 

 

 

Clean water can, dirty water just has the higher risk.

 

 

 

There is no justification for torture. We are not animals.