Views on Defence and its true resistance.

[perfetc]

Defence is as some people would say, a slow training skill.

 

 

 

Surely Defence in itself is a great skill, with every level gained you get that small percentage of the enemy hitting a 0 or at least a small number.

 

 

 

I do believe Defence is a worthwhile skill that should be trained above Strength and Attack, but I do also agree with the fact that Jagex should rewrite or at least tweek the Defence system they have currently running because it is very unlikely that a person with 99 Defence and wearing full dragon or barrows should get hit a 15,16,and a 14 three times in a row by a person with 80 attack, and like 80 strength.

 

 

 

It is the same speed as attack and strength unless I missed something.

 

 

 

Defence only increases the chances of you "dodging" an attack.

 

 

 

Defences only upside is the armour you can wear, in my opinion.

 

 

 

At the moment some people belive that little in defence they don't even train it and it must work otherwise it would have never have caught on.

[3hitm4g3u]

Defence doesn't allow you to dodge an opponents attack.

 

 

 

It makes your opponents attack less likely to hit your body.

[perfetc]

The difference?

[3hitm4g3u]

The difference?

 

 

 

Defence and by extension armour already do what they are supposed to do.

[perfetc]

Defence doesn't allow you to dodge an opponents attack.

 

 

 

It makes your opponents attack less likely to hit your body.

 

 

 

This difference.

 

 

 

There isn't 1.

 

 

 

If you don't move it will hit you, it's not like the armour makes things pass through you at random chance so you must dodge the hit.

[Darkblade20]

Unfortunately, Runescape does not function as other RPG's, or where dodging is going, as real life. Runescape works heavily on percentages. Attack increases the chance, in a percentage, you will hit your opponent in relation to the opponents defense, which alters the % to hit. Obviously there is some algorithm, or equation which determines hit ratios pertinent to attack, and defense levels, but no one really seems to know the exact numbers. As for strength, it simply seems to increase your maximum hit with yet another percentage determining that you will hit a random number between 1, and your maximum hit. Where defense comes in, along with defense bonuses from armor, seems to be split first into two categories:

 

 

 

1) You will be hit for damage

 

2) you will be hit for no damage

 

 

 

I determine that defense, in relation to hitting, decides not whether your opponent will miss or hit, but rather, whether the opponent will perform a hit which causes damage to the player. Armor simply detracts from the probability that a hit will occur based on your defense bonuses, and the attack level/ attack bonuses of the opponent player. Damage is not reduced, it is simply negated, due to the fact that a max hit can still be obtained, even the highest player defense bonus. You must also take into account that armor is meant to prevent bodily harm, so higher defense bonuses create a better defense of the soft body. This is comparable to how a thick piece of metal can negate the effects of a small-caliber bullet. So, judging from this, you are hitting the play every time you swing. Just, armor is protecting the player from damaging effects.

 

 

 

However, this still does not explain the ability to hit "zero" on an unarmed, and unarmored player, which can happen quite often. Which is where this theory, again, goes back to percentages.. which would mean that the player has natural defense bonuses from his/her defense level. This is why I believe defense is working fine, but again, it could use some tweaking.

[perfetc]

You take along time to say nothing.

 

 

 

Basically what you just said is nothing opposes str and runescape works on percentages and you think that is fine.

 

 

 

Runescape is actually like two dice 1 determines if the hit lands and the other is what number from 1 to your max hit (taking to account pots and stuff).

 

 

 

Defence means so little in runescape some people choose not to train defence and it must work other wise people wouldn't do it, so thats why I think it needs changing.

[Darkblade20]

Well, I mean, looking at a pure with 1 defense attempting to kill say... me, with 85 defense, and corresponding armor, such as barrows equipment: The pure is probably going to lose, simply because his defense is too low. While that example takes a horrendous skill gap for granted, the sheer difference is still present. Defense, though, definitely doesn't work as it should, again, tweaking is in order.

 

 

 

I'm also sure that Java script doesn't rely on dice to calculate hits, as every other skill in the game relies on numbers to function properly. I was simply stating my take on how combat/defense works, seeing as no one has a concrete idea as to what actually goes on.

 

 

 

As for str, all it does is determine the maximum damage you can hit.. 1-X, I don't recall stating anything else.

[3hitm4g3u]

Defence doesn't allow you to dodge an opponents attack.

 

 

 

It makes your opponents attack less likely to hit your body.

 

 

 

This difference.

 

 

 

There isn't 1.

 

 

 

If you don't move it will hit you, it's not like the armour makes things pass through you at random chance so you must dodge the hit.

 

 

 

But if your opponent is trained in the art of accuracy why is he going to miss EVERY time?

 

 

 

And you don't stand still during combat, do you? You take swings at your opponent, which could leave openings (less openings if you're skilled in defence).

 

 

 

And if you're standing still you're easy prey for the trained warrior, who knows where to strike.

 

 

 

But if you want defence to be more realistic maybe we should have Bandos armour get ripped like robes, since it doesn't cover all your body? Same with veracs. After all you can't moan about one thing not being realistic enough if you're only going to moan when it suits you.

[perfetc]

Are you sure you don't want to put more words in my mouth?

 

 

 

Fine, nerf the holy hell out of bandos and veracs.

 

 

 

I don't own either so I am not botherd.

 

 

 

:D

[hihihi727]

Defence doesn't allow you to dodge an opponents attack.

 

 

 

It makes your opponents attack less likely to hit your body.

 

 

 

This difference.

 

 

 

There isn't 1.

 

 

 

If you don't move it will hit you, it's not like the armour makes things pass through you at random chance so you must dodge the hit.

 

 

 

Maybe the sword harmlessly hits your shield or something^^. But seriously though, i don't really care about defence not being realistic, if that was a problem then there would be far worse content that would need fixing in RS. But its annoying that as you get higher and higher leveled, fights go from 3-9-5-0-12 to 0-0-0-70-0-29. Do you know what i mean? Weapons shouldn't really have any strength bonuses because armour doesn't have un-strength bonuses.

[Darkblade20]

Verac's armor does, though, have lowered defenses in accordance with the style of armor it is... Bandos, now, for the amount of your body that's being protected, the defense bonuses are ridiculous. You also have to consider, though, it's "an item of the Gods," so I can't exactly put my finger on it.

[3hitm4g3u]

Are you sure you don't want to put more words in my mouth?

 

 

 

Fine, nerf the holy hell out of bandos and veracs.

 

 

 

I don't own either so I am not botherd.

 

 

 

:D

 

 

 

And there's my point.

 

 

 

Your opinion on this is irrelevant since it's simply a case of choosing whatever benefits you most, instead of looking at the bigger picture.

[perfetc]

Are you sure you don't want to put more words in my mouth?

 

 

 

Fine, nerf the holy hell out of bandos and veracs.

 

 

 

I don't own either so I am not botherd.

 

 

 

:D

 

 

 

And there's my point.

 

 

 

Your opinion on this is irrelevant since it's simply a case of choosing whatever benefits you most, instead of looking at the bigger picture.

 

 

 

You never made that point :lol:

 

 

 

Nice to see you can take a joke aswell. :roll:

 

 

 

Look other games can have it were defence means the armour reduces damge NOT a 50kg suit of armour makes you able to miss the opponants attack, it is highly illogical.

 

 

 

A 50kg suit of armour should make you easier to hit but reduce damage, like in every other rpg. If it isn't broken don't fix it.

 

 

 

Maybe cos bandos is a god armour, it is imbued with magic so it covers your body.

 

 

 

With veracs it could be verac is protecting the wearer, who the hell knows but more importantly who the hell cares?

 

 

 

Are you going to ask about mages next? How does there armour work? Maybe they imbue it aswell.

[3hitm4g3u]

Are you sure you don't want to put more words in my mouth?

 

 

 

Fine, nerf the holy hell out of bandos and veracs.

 

 

 

I don't own either so I am not botherd.

 

 

 

:D

 

 

 

And there's my point.

 

 

 

Your opinion on this is irrelevant since it's simply a case of choosing whatever benefits you most, instead of looking at the bigger picture.

 

 

 

You never made that point :lol:

 

 

 

Nice to see you can take a joke aswell. :roll:

 

 

 

Look other games can have it were defence means the armour reduces damge NOT a 50kg suit of armour makes you able to miss the opponants attack, it is highly illogical.

 

 

 

A 50kg suit of armour should make you easier to hit but reduce damage, like in every other rpg. If it isn't broken don't fix it.

 

 

 

Maybe cos bandos is a god armour, it is imbued with magic so it covers your body.

 

 

 

With veracs it could be verac is protecting the wearer, who the hell knows but more importantly who the hell cares?

 

 

 

Are you going to ask about mages next? How does there armour work? Maybe they imbue it aswell.

 

 

 

If you read instead of skimming you'll see I did make that point. Maybe skimming is what stops you understanding logic?

 

 

 

A 50kg suit of armour is going to make your opponent miss your body (thus doing damage) more often, not hit more often.

 

 

 

If they manage to get into a weak spot of your armour and do damage, why would your armour reduce that damage?

 

 

 

Just because other games have that flaw doesn't mean Runescape should. Jagex doesn't have to adopt every single idea from other games into runescape you know.

[langer]

@ 3hitm4g3u

 

 

 

Don't bother with him, he doesn't have the cognitive capacity to use logic.

[perfetc]

If you read instead of skimming you'll see I did make that point. Maybe skimming is what stops you understanding logic?

 

 

 

A 50kg suit of armour is going to make your opponent miss your body (thus doing damage) more often, not hit more often.

 

 

 

If they manage to get into a weak spot of your armour and do damage, why would your armour reduce that damage?

 

 

 

Just because other games have that flaw doesn't mean Runescape should. Jagex doesn't have to adopt every single idea from other games into runescape you know.

 

 

 

So how does that work with mage robes or leather :?:

 

 

 

It obviously doesn't have to copy thing but why change things that don't need altering?

 

 

 

langer, stfu.

 

 

 

Just cos you don't know basic things there is no need to find my posts and call me what ever pathetic names you can think of.

 

 

 

It says more about you than me. You can think what you like about me but is there any need to go on other threads, go totaly off topic and throw insults at me?

[3hitm4g3u]

why change things that don't need altering?

 

 

 

 

Exactly.

 

 

 

Defence is fine as it is, and has been for a long time.

[Darkblade20]

I think the misunderstanding here is the fact that attacks aren't passing through you, nor are you dodging the attack. Armor is a barrier which acts to protect the body by covering it with hard-to-penetrate materials. When a sword clangs against a hard metal plate, there's a good chance the blow won't cause any damage what so ever to the opponents body. Then, where attack and strength would theoretically come in, there are scientific accounts in which the force of a sword, such as a claymore, could damage the opponent, shattering his bones, even through the highly resistant armor. There are also spots in armor which are weaker, or thinner, and some spots even have tiny openings which shift due to movement. Striking these particular areas was often advantageous, sometimes fatal.

 

 

 

As for a ranger's leather, tough leather was a staple in archaic warfare for a few hundreds years. It's actually quite resilient, with that ability to withstand minor attacks. A heavy blow from a sword, though, or an attack which stabs through the armor, will often negate any protection the leather provides. Seeing as these leathers are also made from increasingly tougher dragon hides, the defense bonuses are reasonable I suppose.

 

 

 

As for a mage's robes, we've all seen what a dagger, or an arrow can do to that. Tears it to ribbons, right? While the robes do have defense bonuses, though in a more traditional rpg.. the mage would have virtually no defence, it's generally not enough defense to avoid the powerful attacks from a warrior or a ranger. The mage must rely heavily on the natural defense bonuses which his/her defense levels add in order to effectively survive.

[perfetc]

Twisted those words slightly.

 

 

 

I meant from other RPG'S.

 

 

 

I think it should be changed cos it would help with pjing, your more likly to hit a low number than a really high number, so it would be easier to get away or fight back.

 

 

 

Pking fights would last longer and maybe reduce safing cos people feel more secure knowing that it is more likly to be a low number than a high number.

 

 

 

You know how jagex loves pvp these days.

[3hitm4g3u]

Twisted those words slightly.

 

 

 

I meant from other RPG'S.

 

 

 

I think it should be changed cos it would help with pjing, your more likly to hit a low number than a really high number, so it would be easier to get away or fight back.

 

 

 

Pking fights would last longer and maybe reduce safing cos people feel more secure knowing that it is more likly to be a low number than a high number.

 

 

 

You know how jagex loves pvp these days.

 

 

 

Yeah I know what you meant but why should any RPG have to conform to the rules set by past RPGs? In todays age isn't the best selling point of videogames originality (well, second best after graphics)?

 

 

 

I like how Runescape isn't the same as D&D and other RPGs of old. I play runescape for runescape, not so I can say wow this is just like D&D, what a great game.

 

 

 

Pjing has been stopped tbh. Just log onto a BH world which isn't +1 and I promise you won't find many Pjers if any. AGS dropped over 13M in 3 days when this update happened before +1 worlds were introduced, because everyone knew it was the end of PJing.

 

 

 

All this update (to defence) will do is make tank rangers like the 1 and 10 defence pures of RSC. Near undefeatable. I can't see Jagex creating another situation like that, they changed the way combat level is calculated in RS2 just so they could stop low defence pures being so powerful.

[Sir_Kurity]

I can imagine level 100 fights though.

 

 

 

Using any normal weapon like a scimitar would hit like 10, veracs flail would probably fly up in price.

[perfetc]

Twisted those words slightly.

 

 

 

I meant from other RPG'S.

 

 

 

I think it should be changed cos it would help with pjing, your more likly to hit a low number than a really high number, so it would be easier to get away or fight back.

 

 

 

Pking fights would last longer and maybe reduce safing cos people feel more secure knowing that it is more likly to be a low number than a high number.

 

 

 

You know how jagex loves pvp these days.

 

 

 

Yeah I know what you meant but why should any RPG have to conform to the rules set by past RPGs? In todays age isn't the best selling point of videogames originality (well, second best after graphics)?

 

 

 

I like how Runescape isn't the same as D&D and other RPGs of old. I play runescape for runescape, not so I can say wow this is just like D&D, what a great game.

 

 

 

Pjing has been stopped tbh. Just log onto a BH world which isn't +1 and I promise you won't find many Pjers if any. AGS dropped over 13M in 3 days when this update happened before +1 worlds were introduced, because everyone knew it was the end of PJing.

 

 

 

All this update (to defence) will do is make tank rangers like the 1 and 10 defence pures of RSC. Near undefeatable. I can't see Jagex creating another situation like that, they changed the way combat level is calculated in RS2 just so they could stop low defence pures being so powerful.

 

 

 

I personally don't think graphics are the most important thing in a game, it seems games companies are throwing all there time and money into graphics that are jaw dropping but the graphics take up so much room everything else suffers, such as gameplay and story.

 

 

 

I know games need a USP but I think you have to get fundamentals right before all that.

 

 

 

I think either you don't understand me or I don't understand you but it sounds like your saying some body with 1 defence will be "near undefeatable".

 

 

 

I am saying the opposite 1 defence pures will have no chance of winning, the problem comes with 99 defence will be "near undefeatable" which is the point of having 99 defence isn't it? You have mastered defence so you stop nearly all attacks.

 

 

 

I have read people saying theres no point getting defence past 80 or 90 cos there isn't much of a difference from 99

[3hitm4g3u]

I personally don't think graphics are the most important thing in a game, it seems games companies are throwing all there time and money into graphics that are jaw dropping but the graphics take up so much room everything else suffers, such as gameplay and story.

 

 

 

Same here dude, but the facts speak louder than the both of us. Absolutely amazing graphics are more likely to sell a videogame than an intricate plot/great gameplay with bad graphics.

 

 

 

I think either you don't understand me or I don't understand you but it sounds like your saying some body with 1 defence will be "near undefeatable".

 

 

 

No, back in RSC (runescape classic) 1 defence pures were near undefeatable.

 

 

 

When RS2 (What we're playing now) came out, Jagex changed the way the combat level system worked (basically nerfing 1 defence).

 

 

 

Just an example but a popular pure build now is 60 att and 99 strength. Maxed out this has a combat level of 83 with 52 prayer. In runescape classic you could be 99 attack, 99 strength, 99 hitpoints, 99 ranged and 52 prayer with 1 defence and be 81 combat. A pure with them stats in the runescape we play now would be 95 combat.

 

 

 

I am saying the opposite 1 defence pures will have no chance of winning, the problem comes with 99 defence will be "near undefeatable" which is the point of having 99 defence isn't it? You have mastered defence so you stop nearly all attacks.

 

 

 

In a single player game I'd agree with you.

 

 

 

But in a game as multiplayer as runescape you can't have one skill = ultimate power.

 

 

 

The skill Defence not only helps you defend from attacks, it increases your offensive capabilities (via strength bonus) and your ability to pray longer. Having myself been a pure for a long time (since classic) I can definately tell you defence is alot more useful than someone who is used to it would think. It's easy to say 'omg my 99 def got specced out we need more defence' but try playing on a real low defence account and you'll see how good defence really is.

 

 

 

I have read people saying theres no point getting defence past 80 or 90 cos there isn't much of a difference from 99

 

 

 

They're probably newbs who haven't had 99 defence before.

[Bassy]

I think that PvM Defence is totally fine. I can do many Slayer tasks in one trip without any food and minimal, if not at all, use of Guthan's. If anything has to be done here, a small boost in the ability to dodge some of the boss monsters more often would be a nice treat for those people like me who decided to train Defence rather high.

 

 

 

PvP, however, seems to be the one area I've never liked about having high Defence. Though I will often see 99 Strength Capers spec 0's on me with their AGS and Claws, the majority of the time I can't stand a long fight with them. Their specs may fail, but their normal attacks usually hit quite more often. They seem to be changing PvP every week nowadays, so why not give us a little Defence boost? ;)